I would say that all ambassadors deal with other countries including aspiring countries. Unusual to name u. S. Ambassador to the eu to be responsible for all aspects of ukraine. I will take your answer. Its still in his portfolio which was my question. A man of great integrity. One of our our most successful ambassadors. You would agree hes a man of great reputation. Right . Yes. Would it surprise you if an 2004 john kerry had a member of his campaign who was a Foreign Policy advisor, traveling to ukraine in july and met with ukrainian officials and the ukraine ambassador, with that surprise you . A member of john kerrys campaign for president of the United States in 2004 travel to ukraine met with the u. S. Ambassador in july. Not necessarily. If a member of the campaign traveled to the ukraine, would you have taken that meeting . I guess it would depend on what the purpose of the meeting was. That meeting actually occurred. It was with john holbrook. A private citizen. Went to went to ukraine. Also there about hivaids. Something the Clinton Foundation was working on. An official of the campaign in 2004. A private citizen meeting with our ambassador in ukraine. We meet with private individuals all the time. Time has expired. Mr. Carson, you are recognized. Thank you. Returning to the topic of corruption. We heard evidence that you are successful at promoting efforts of corruption. Testifying about your career as a champion in ukraine, Deputy Assistant secretary said you cannot promote principal anticorruption action without passing off corrupt people. It seems that your effort as ambassador to essentially perform in ukraine doing exactly that, ambassador, what concerned you about the Prosecutor Generals Office when you were the ambassador in ukraine . What concerned us was there did did not deceive be any progress in the objectives. The first thing was, reforming the the Prosecutor Generals Office. Tremendously powerful office. Also to do the actual prosecution. A very wide power. Part of the legacy. There just was not a lot of progress. There was not a lot of progress in handling personnel issues. How the structure should be organized and who should have the important job. Some of the people in those jobs were known to be corrupt themselves. Secondly, the issue that was tremendously important to these people of bringing justice to the over 100 people who died during revolution of dignity in 2014. Nobody has been held accountable for that. That is kind of an open wound for the ukrainian people. Thirdly, ukraine people. Thirdly, ukraine needs all of the money that it has. There is a strong belief that former president cove village and those around him made off with over 40 billion. 40 billion. That is a huge amount of money in ukraine. Again, none of that money has really been, i think maybe 1 billion may be, but the the rest of it still missing. Was the head of that office corrupt . We believe so. You got the sense that he was a driving force against some of these attacks against you . I do. Which ultimately led to your removal. Correct. Let me get this straight. You are effective effective at fighting corruption in ukraine. Fighting that corruption was important to the security of the United States. You were punished for that. Ultimately being removed by the president of the United States. In your opinion, why is it important to have a nonpartisan career in the Foreign Services. I think it is important to have a nonpartisan partisan service because what we do is inherently nonpartisan. It is about our National Security interest. Not about what is good for a particular party at at a particular time. It has to be about the greater interest of our security. Frankly a dangerous world. Could you describe for us what policy you have sought to advance in your 33 years of service and specifically imposed soviet states like ukraine. That is a broad question. Certainly in my time in russia, armenia, all of these countries are very different as is ukraine. I think that establishing positive constructive relations to the extent that we can with those countries is really important. There are three basic areas. One is security. One is economic and one is political. Working all the issues, many of them, we certainly did that in ukraine as well. Thank you for your service. I yield to the chair. Thank you. Doctor winced rum. Thank you very much for being here. I just want to start by saying i appreciate your years of service. Moving around the world, the dangerous places, hearing from you today i realize we share some of the same feelings and experiences. Monday afternoon. March of of 2005. Told me i was being deployed and i had to be out the door in the next twothree days. Understand that shocking feeling that can come with an abrupt change like that. I was told that my orders would say you are going for 18 months. It may be a little shorter shorter than that. I served a year. This is where i have another personal relationship with what you are talking about. People craving a noncorrupt government. Family today, even though it helped to remove, they still have corrupt. Adding an open wound. You may imagine without military experience and background, taking an interest in the capabilities and the thoughts of those with boots on the ground like you and mr. Bulger and mr. Taylor. In your deposition on page 144, in terms of legal assistance, a very significant that this Administration Made the decision to provide lethal weapons to ukraine. Who in general makes up we all. Is that the team i mentioned . I have to move on. We all felt that it was very significant that this Administration Made the decision to provide lethal weapons to ukraine. This administration i assume you meant the trump administration. In your deposition also on page 144 you spoke about the generosity of congress. You mentioned congress. You mentioned it today. Part of your deposition, after that statement that i quoted before, did you advocate for that . You responded you responded yes. Did you advocate for that prior to the administration of 2016. On page on page 148 the question was where you satisfied that the administration was doing what was necessary to support ukraine . You said in what respect. You said you said helping them deter russian regression. You said yes. I agree. I thank them. The acting ambassador taylor was here wednesday. He testified about the president s decision to withhold legal aid. He said the president felt it might provoke russia. Russia has already been provoked. They have invaded ukraine. President obama had the right to make his own Foreign Policy. Make his own decisions as president of the United States. Correct . Yes. He has the right. I understand the prophecy. Im getting to that, actually. He has his right. As do all president s. Correct . Yes. We have one president , obama, who denies lethal laid altogether despite of other boots on the ground recommending, making that recommendation, such as you did. We have another president , trump, who vetted who vetted those that will receive the aid. Providing consistent with your inter Agency Recommendation and that of your colleague. Let me just ask from a military standpoint, without him, would you agree that russians have much greater military offense of options and flexibility in their effort to attack. Yes. They had another another option. Although it is no longer war being fought. There is another reason for that. I just wanted to make that point. The president has the right to have their own foreign policies and to make their own decisions. With that, i yield back. I want to thank you for your service as well. While i obviously do not dispute that the president has the right to withdraw and ambassador at any time, for any reason, but what what i do wonder is why it was necessary to smear my reputation. I was not asking about that, but thank thank you very much, maam. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, ambassador, you, ambassador, so very much. Unanimous. Unanimous. Republicans and democrats. Correct . No dispute. Summer of 2018, the smear the Smear Campaign began. In your testimony earlier today. Did the secretary at any time come to your aid . My understanding from the secretary and deputy secretary sullivan is that, you know, this sort of rumor about me, for lack of a better word, the Smear Campaign that was behind closed doors at that point. That there were a number of discussions between the president and secretary pompeo. It did keep me in place for as long as he could. It appears that back in 2018, the president was already making noises that he wanted you out of there. It appears as early as april april 2018 that was at a fundraiser for the president and recommended that you be removed. Subsequently in may of 2018 was pictured at a white house dinner with the president. Later in may, made over 325,000, illegally to the president reelection, illegally to the president reelection campaign. Are you aware of that . Does that help you understand a little bit more why this campaign was underway . Yes. You made some very riveting comments in your statement this morning. I just want to repeat. I think we should have you expand on it. I always understood that i served at the pleasure of the president. I still find it difficult to comprehend that foreign and private interest were able to undermine u. S. Interest in this way. Individuals who apparently felt by our effort to promote u. S. Policy against corruption. To do our mission, able to successfully conduct a campaign of disinformation against a sitting ambassador using unofficial back panel. Now, as i listened to make that statement, i was thinking about all the other persons in the service who now have to be concerned that its not good enough to follow the u. S. Foreignpolicy, but also be aware that may be the president has a back channel of interest that he is promoting that is opposed to our stated Foreign Policy. Can you expand on that, please. I think that it is important that whoever is representing the president and ambassador speaks with the full authority of the president of our Foreign Policy establishment. If there are others who are also helping with the responsibilities in the country, the ambassador with his mission to bring peace, that we all speak with one voice. It is all about our Common Security interest. It is not about, you know, commercial gain or anything else. It is about our National Security. In this case, the trace amigos appeared to be more interested in getting an investigation then into promoting and anticorruption effort in ukraine. Is that correct . That appears to be the case. You are told that one point in 2019 and february of this year, you spoke to a minister in ukraine that warned when it came to Rudy Giuliani, you needed to watch your back. What did you understand him to mean . I did not exactly know. The rumor was out there at that time. That information was shared with me that the mayor was working to have me removed. Let me just say that you have endured and orchestrated character assassination. It was hatched over a year and a half ago. Placed with enormous Campaign Contributions for the president s reelection campaign. You deserve more from the American People and you deserve more from Congress Supporting you. I yield back. Ive unanimous consent, mr. Chairman. Take that up later. You are recognized. Thank thank you, mr. Chairman and others. Thank you for being here with us today. Welcome. Welcome to the impeachment proceedings. I am sorry you have gotten drug into this. We have heard these outrageous and unbelievable accusations regarding russian inclusion. Accusations that are absolute nonsense. There is no basis at all despite promises from members of this committee that they had secret proof that would prove this. Now in year four, we move on ukraine and quid pro quo culminating yesterday when the speaker announced that the president would indeed be impeached and removed from office. With that, i now feel compelled to ask you, madam ambassador. Very simply and directly. Do you have any information regarding the president of the United States accepting any bribes . No. Any information regarding any criminal activity that the president of the United States has been involved with at all. No. Thank you. Thank you for answering that directly. The American People know this is nonsense. The American People know that this is unfair. I think that public support for impeachment will actually be less when these hearings are over dan when the hearings began they will be able to make their own determination regarding that. I want ask you one thing very quickly. My question is slightly different. Youve been asked, the president , any president has the ability to ask his ambassadors to serve at will. I am curious, do you think that is the right policy . I think it is. I do as well. There may be times where it is not used perfectly, but, i agree agree with you. It is the right policy. I dont think we should change at. Id like to read from some previous statements including one of your own. Regarding the appropriateness of obstruction in the uk. The fact that their investigations in the Energy Sector in ukraine as well as any other countries is not a surprise. Your previous testimony question. Was it the general understanding that it was accompanied that suffered from allegations of corruption. Your answer was yes. I am generally aware that it is considered a potentially corrupt company. Would you agree, then, that it is appropriate to investigate corruption . I think it is appropriate if it is part of our national strategy. What i would say is that we have a process for doing that. We have one with ukraine. Generally, it goes from our department of justice to the ministry of justice in the country of interest. I appreciate that. Regardless of the process, its appropriate for us to investigate. Giving these countries hundreds of millions of dollars. Here is a dollar of mine. Go ahead and give it to this other country. Please only do it if you know it will not be used for corrupt purposes or against our national interest. I promised our friends i would save a little bit of time. You mentioned earlier that the Vice President , calling for the specific firing of a specific prosecutor, that he was completing official u. S. Policy. The interesting thing is this, the Vice President had to countries that were his responsibility at the time. China and ukraine. He has braden been very proud. Again and again, the Obama Administration listened him so it does not surprise me that they would be fulfilling a policy that the Vice President certainly helped to formulate. Cypress. Thank you. Clarification. I have unanimous consent that does not involve you this time. Three articles. 2004 campaign. Caring forward policy. Time of the gentleman has expired. I may recognize you later. [inaudible] you are recognized. You are recognized. Thank you. Like a hallmark movie. Georgetown. This is all okay. [laughter] but it was not your preference seven or eight months ago. Correct. Your preference to be out in the pentacle of your career. Was it . No. You wanted to finish your extended . I did. What did you want to do after that . I wasnt sure. Theres nothing wrong with georgetown. Its a fine place. But its the only choice at the end of your extinguished career. Its not the end of the home movie. Its the end of a really bad Reality Tv Show brought to you by someone who knows a lot about that. Why did you, you previously testified that you sought advice from ambassador common at this time about what to do, correct . Yes. Why did you reach out to the ambassador . This was clearly so political and was not going to be the state department was not in a position to manage the issue, it didnt appear to me. So i asked the ambassador, he was a political appointee so he had just been in ukraine for a visit with some of his colleagues from buffalo. I reached out to him for advice. This was no longer ukraine interview, kind of a ukrainian but it became through the american politicians, they were locating allegations. I asked him for advice. This is an extraordinary time and the advice meant a lot. What was his advice . He suggested that i needed to go big or go home. He said the best thing to do would be to send out a tweet, that sort of thing. What was your reaction to the advice . Im sure he meant well but it was not advised i could really follow, it felt political. That was not something i felt was keeping with ambassador. Did he give you any specific suggestions on what to say about the president of the u. S. Or just Say Something nice . Just praise him. Thank you. I healed. I want to follow up, you asked a couple of questions, do you thank you could have done more to push back against the Smear Campaign . Im not suggesting this is what hes getting at but sometimes they ask, arent you respond responsible for your own victimizations . Old you say to people who said his kind of your fault, ambassador that you didnt fight your own . I think you know, ive done, ive been an officer for a long time. We have our own culture, our own chain of command and i did everything i could to address these issues and asked the state department to do what i felt was the right thing, which was support me when it was important to do so. Its also supporting the policy. I think it was for others to stand up for me. I agree. Since the chairman has gaveled out all of my colleagues today, i am going to read for the record many of the chairmans comments in september of the importance of the whistleblower. Thank you for your patience and service but since we have been able to conduct these procedures, september 29, wall street journal, whistleblower the center of