Transcripts For CSPAN2 Debbie Cenziper Citizen 865 20240713

We thank you so much for being here with us today. We hope you will return on other occasions. Usually, i play game with the audience and i will do it quickly. Is this your first visit v, please, raise your hand . Higher. Thank you. Over here . Our presenter must have a fan club. Thank you. In the interest of equality, so that the rest of you can exercise one of your arms, if you are a regular, if you attend programs all the time as one of our members, please raise your hand. Thank you so much. Thank you. Of the folks who raisee your hands the first time around presenting my word for it, ask anyone else w around you whose hand went up the second time why they support this institution, why they come here on a regular basis, why i know many of them by their first name and those whose first names i have not learned i will do my best to learn them. Also come i suggest or those of you not been there with our organization to pick up one of our quarterly calendar calendar of events brochures and on the information desk and there in our legacy shock to let you know about all of our upcoming programs. I want to steal more of the time this afternoon to list them all but i will tell you that we have a program coming thursday evening that will be an exhibition opening for a brandnew exhibition we have Just Announced and thats on thursday, the 21st, and next to sunday, another program with a film and discussion in a way tangential we relate to the subject matter today. We will show the film of a israeli made documentary that interviewed survivors and others who were witnesses or who o attended the iceman trial and one of those witnesses was hendrik ross whose photographs are featured in our special exhibition right now quote memory unearthed. Those are just a few of the reasons for you to return and i hope you will. At the conclusion of todays program, our presenter will be available to sign copies of her new book, citizen 865. The hunt for hit hitlers hidden soldiers in america. I ask you to please allow her to exit the stage in the auditorium and continue your conversation with her in the vicinity of our legacy shop. Some of you may have noticed we have some additional apparatus in the room today. We are very excited that this afternoons program is being preserved and taped for future broadcast by cspan, cspan book tv. We are excited to have an author whose work commands such important attention as it should because the subject matter will never go out of style. Debbie cenziper is associate professor and director of investigative reporting at Mcgill School of journalism and western university. She oversees the Investigative Lab or Investigative Lab. She is a Pulitzer Prizewinning Investigative Reporter and Nonfiction Author who writes for the Washington Post. She has spent three years at George Washington university before joining faculty at mcdill. Over the years her investigative stories have exposed wrongdoing, and lead to changes in federal and local laws. In her classes at mcdill she and her students focus on social justice investigative reporting. She has won dozens of awardss including the Robert F Kennedy award for reporting about human rights and the goldsmith prize for investigativeht reporting fm harvard university. She received a pulitzer in 2007 at the miami herald for a series of stories aboutut corrut Affordable Housing developers who were stealing from the poor. The year before that she was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for stories about dangerous breakdowns in the nations hurricane tracking system. Ns debbies a frequent speaker at universities right conferences and book events. Her first book love wins published in 2016 was named one of the most notable books of the year by the Washington Post. Her second book the recently released hot off the press citizen 865 is her topic of conversation with us today. She is based on mcdills washington dc campus working with undergraduate and graduate students uninvestigated stories and we are delighted to present to you this afternoon debbieve cenziper. [applause]. Take you for that lovely introduction and i very much appreciate it. I am so happy to be with youe today though, based in washington dc for the First Quarter at northwestern i have been here learning all about evanston and northwestern in chicago and its been a lot of fun and i am so happy to be here to talk about this book project. Let me tell you read this book got started. This book actually started just in the final moments of t 2016 when i was at a new Years Eve Party in maryland with my friends and husband and my husband wanted to leave because there was very loud disco music playing in the background and he had had enough, but i ended up having a conversation with a woman we were having dinner with who id never met w before. Turned out she was a lawyer from the Us Department of. Justice and or this long unexpected conversation robin golda started to tell me about this little known unit deep inside the Us Justice Departments that had spent three decades hunting not to war criminals on us soil and though i had spent a decade or so on staff at the Washington Post i knew very little about this unit and i remember thinking to things, asking myself to questions after this twohour conversation. Number one, how is it possible that so many years after the war , what 70 some years after the holocaust there were still not keep perpetrators more criminals living here on us soil , i just could not understand that and really was fascinated by the idea that that was even happening here and more than that who were the men and women at the Us Justice Department that had spent the bulk of their careers hunting for these perpetrators and how were they able to spend a day after day year after year inside some of the darkest moments in recent historyns . How were they able to do that and then go home at night to their wives and their husbands . How were they able to go home and i to their children, take vacations and live normal lives when during the day they were hearing about and reliving some of the most horrible horrific moments in holocaust history . So i really wanted to get to know the people behind this nazi hunting unit in the Us Department of justice and so after i rounded up my husband from this cocktail party, he was sitting outside hushed over his phone reading the Washington Post waiting for me for quite a long time and i knew i had the beginnings of another book. Eg so, about a week later, i called up a historian who works in this nazi hunting unit in the us the part of justice, doctor barry white, and i asked very to talk to me a little bit about what she had been doing here and she recounted a story that prompted me too write this book. In the 1990, soon after the collapse of communism, barry white and another historian named peter black you already got my joke and i have not even heid the joke at. Are got to the punch line. They went to prague because communism had collapsed and they knew that the nazis had stashed a lot of records in prague, more. Ellipsis word documents and they could never get to them because the communist government would allow them inside their archives, but after the collapse of communism in 1990 c, they cod get in and it was a treasure trove of information for these historians. Imagine what they might find their and so they flew into germany. They rented this little car that shoved across a germany into prague in the middle of the night they ended up in a little rented apartment and their russian caretaker was very upset that v barry white was not there with her husband. She was, in fact, their onthejob and she was pregnant at the time and the russian caretaker very much wanted to feed them poor cutlets and beer for breakfast and that was not a good thing for very who was very early on in her pregnancy. They ended up inside this massive archive in prague surrounded by government agents with guns and everything else, so doctor black peter black through his translator said im doctor black and this is doctor whites. [laughter] and we are here representing the Us Department of justice. Well, all the government agents started to smirk probably thinking the cia has no imagination. These musty government spies. Off they go into this dusty archive in this Office Building in prague and sitting on barry white pushes back her chair. Shes looking at this piece of a paper, runs over to peter black and said i found something. Turns out, they found a knotty roster from 1945, that listed the name of 700 men who had participated in one of the most lethal operations in occupied iepoland and some of those men they knew were here in the United States living on us soil. They recognized as some of the names and that was a turning point in an investigation that spanned about 15 years and is at the heart of this book, citizen 865. As soon as i talked to barry white, i knew this was my next book. This was for four historian wanted to tell and so many give you little bit of background. I focused heavily on this book on historians, though prosecutors are the heroes of the book as well. I focused heavily on historians because i spent about 25 years of my life as an Investigative Reporter, so documents intrigued me. I love documents and the historians were able to find documents from all over eastern europe, inside what were once communist countries. They went to moscow, prague, they went to, poland, and they found all of this evidence about men who were living here in the United States and i found that ngsolutely intriguing as an Investigative Reporter, that there were men and women who had sent their career in this obscure outpost of the Us Department of justice with drop ceilings, stained carpeting and a window that faced a mcdonalds and here they were hunting nazi war criminals in us soil and they were absolutely determined to bring them to justice no matter how much time had passed. And i found that really inspiring as a journalist, as a mother, as a wife, as a human being and to so these are the people who didnt hard drive story. Delivered a background. As you allro know, poland had me jews before the war than any other country in the world, probably accept the us. It was a thriving hub for jewish life and it was also considered a strategic stronghold for the rights as there was lush farmland and a Strong Economy usthat they wanted to turn overo ethnic german settlers, so poland was s a very strategic location on a very strategic area for the rights, but what you do with the jews . Would he do with the jews . And so they had experimented with gassings in germany through local vast vans and that idea of kind of bloodless mass murder was very was found very interesting and intriguing to the policece leader of the district, a man known im going to botch his last name. So, he was passed with the deciding what to do with the juice of occupied poland. Yell, the ss was busy fighting on the soviet front and they needed manpower. He needed help. Mp [screaming]. He taught them how to fight for the enemy. He also recruited pennsylvania pennsylvanians, and other recruits. And he brought them, to a little farming village south of warsaw, known as cosby. You can see from the mat, whats interesting about this is that he was an incredible location, because the real r lines. They connected this village to other key points in occupied poland. And so he ultimately recruited about 5000 men. To this camp and became a school murder. In a sense because in this camp, these men will trained in ideology, they were armed, they were empowered, they were taught military drills, german marching, commands, they were ultimately dispatched from this mass murder from this little part milledge notice because making to the jewish ghetto in poland with a liquidated together and they were brought to other participated in shooting operations, throughout occupiedoo poland. Demand the killing centers in the occupied poland. Including other areas. In the course to be gas chambers in occupied poland. The men essentially became the manpower. They were the men who do the bloodiest jobs in occupied poland. And the jews who survived, described the men as more brutal and more vicious and more bloodthirsty than even members of the ss and these will men who essentially became the foot soldiers of the right. And this town became their space. The base camp. This is where they were armed and this is where they were trained and this is where they were issued a deployment order. If to go across occupied poland and help ss annihilate the jews. These will the men who did the bloodiest jobs in occupied poland. And from kinky wasnd essentialla school for massia murder in occupied poland set up by the ss. In fact one of the historian books called the men of sudsy keep the foot soldiers of the third reich. That is what they did. They were often known by the jews as the men wearing black coats and black caps. Some jewish survivors called the ukrainians because some of the men are from ukraine that region. But there will others and many many others, the ss really came up with an incredible system because these men will given wages and they were given housing, food, Service Medals for work that was done well. There will given vacations. They were given all kinds of honor and they received proper burials. So for these men especially men who came from soviet pow camps, serving the enemy seem like a decent option because in soviet pow camps they would likely start or face death of some other kind of horrible death. And so this camp was set up in the first deployment was to the city of woodland which you can see on the map, lublin was a historical cultural and Religious Center for thousands of poland jewish. More than 40000 jews lived in poland in 1930 united. And they held leadership positions on the townci council, they were of the Business Community and the religious schools and there was just a thriving jewish cultural have their 1930 united. It was here in oakland that two of the main characters in my book met. Theyre just children. And in many ways in every way at the w time. Felix and lucinda, will born in louisville in and they were friends and their families will friends. The sin his father was a quote interpreter prefer the work that her mother was a dentist. Felix news father was an architect before the war. So these two teenagers will pushed into the lumen ghetto by the nazis along with the front and the neighbors. Every member of their extended family. As a 40000 euros will put into this ghetto. No starvation, typist, you name it and everything, is terrible. Food shortages, and for all kinds ofr reasons, listening and felix will able to survive mass deportations in this ghetto. Their survival story like all of the survival stories ive heard in researching this book, is just absolutely astounding. It took my breath away as a writer. Here they work in this ghetto in lieu glenn, and one dave minute blackouts in black caps, surround the perimeter of the ghetto. In one of floodlights and the demand that every family come outside. And in this ghetto 1500 jews a day, wouldbe deported east for resettlement in the east. And so over a period of weeks, the senia and felix will barely, and the city it was entertained felix was about 19 or so. So everyone they knew, deported. Their friends, theirir neighbor, their extended family, ever with any of the lost. They didnt know where they had gone and it turns out they were taken to the killing center and cast upon arrival. Let the people did this, will men in black coats and black caps. The juice described them as being more vicious and more violent than the dreaded ss. They went to a Jewish Hospital and they murdered the patients and the doctors and the nurses. They went to a jewish orphanage and they murdered the children. Along with the Staff Members who refused to leave the children behind. They went into the woods and chargers at the edge of a ravine through mass killing in shooting operation. And these men will the men who will trained at the school for mass murder. The school was so important to the ss that top leadership came to visit including hitler. Felix and lizzie escaped. Escaped the lumen ghetto. And on the cover of night, took the train to warsaw. Because they didnt have any place to go, they slipped inside jewish ghetto of warsaw because the senia had an uncle there. And they decided that last minute, they need it to get out of the ghetto. Heand so in the weeks before the uprising, with the help of the ispolish underground. Felix and lizzie escaped warsaw ghetto. Probably saved lives. Because they escaped just before the uprising. What they didnt know at the time is that the men followed and they work sidebyside the germans to suppress the jewish uprising in the warsaw ghetto. So they survived movement and outran them and have trieded nikki, and they survived warsaw and outran the men of trauma and achy in scene felix ended up at the end of the war and a small rural farming village near costco in the essentially will hiding in plain sight. Felix became a teacher for the local children in this village never wont told anyone obviously, he was a jew. And it the very end of the war they heard soviet tanks mumbling towards this farm village. And felix set down on his stomach and he crawled out into the woods on his hands and knees and can see the soviets tanks coming. And liberation. In russian commander walked into thema building, an approach felx and said to argue. Felix said i am a teacher here. And the commander said, okay. Felix said, the first time in many months, i am also a jew. In the commander said to him, its not possible. All of the jews are dead. You must be a spy. Felix and nono, limited. So the commander called over a jew soldier and said, your jew, hes a jew, speak hebrew to each other good and felix, came from a very assimilated family in the lead. Do not speakid much in fact, his father brought in the rabbi to the house to teach him a little bit of his history. And felix would wait to the rabbi dozed off, and he would take his books and skip to the last page l and with a robe i we up, he would see here you go, i finish my study. Upon so now, hes faced with proving he is the jew and what couldve been a live or death moment towards the end of the work. And somewhere in the back of hiw memory in the back of his mind, he remembered this month. Holiest prayer and jewish religion and recited it to the soviet soldier and the soviet soldier said oh my god, you really are ay jew. And hugged felix and that is help felix and you know senia and was able to do so they survived the war. So on foot they would home to lumen to see if anyone was left. Before the war there will 40000 jews leaving in lumen, only 200 survived. Including felix and the i senia. They need it to get out of ochildren because tennessee and in particular because every rock had well have on it. Every neither was a stranger by then. So they went to vienna and felix finished his medical degree. He became a dr. And in thehe 1951, they came to the United States. What they didnt know until years later and what many if not most join us survivor stated no adult years later, is that the men of cutting key followed. They slipped into the United States by lying about their whereabouts and activities during the war. They came in in large part on the displaced persons act which is meant to bring in war refugees and people who will escaping from communism. And joyce survivors. And the move to the United States hiding in plain sight in cities and suburbs across the country. So they were kind nikki meant leaving in new york, and in florida, and ohio, and yes even here in the chicago region. And ultimately what investigators w found in the u. Department of justice, is that there will more than a dozen causing keyman leaving in the United States. Imagine knowing, that the men, the very same men who persecuted and had a hand in killing everyone you ever know, when you are leaving in thein united stas sidebyside with holocaust victims, their descendents, and war veterans across an ocean to free them. Imagine what that must have felt like knowing that was the case. And when the men came here, many of them became naturalized citizens. They pledged to defend the constitution. And they were leaving here with pensions. The Social Security benefits. And they went to church, they married, they had children. They were naturalized americans. The sidebyside with the very same people had a hand in killing. Consult the people of the department of o justice, didnt really know very much about this place. It was known to be policeman unnecessarily the west. Because the department of justice did not have access to the archives in eastern youre up for a long time. And so some men will known because everybody know john the name ring a val. He was a cause nikki oh man and that was where he was trained it was his base camp so we knew american investigators know at this placement they didnt understand his role in the murder of the jews of occupied poland. That went out theseco men according to historians, there is no way the ss could have killed 1. 7 million jews in fewer than 20 months. The span of two polish summers. Theres no way they could kill that many that quickly that went out brute of course on the frontlines of this mass murder occupation. In occupied poland. This is one of the most interesting pictures i found of cause nikki amand standing the bodies of the dead in the warsaw ghetto. Peers there are one of the exterminating centers. You can see one of the guys is playing the mandolin. So perhaps the most trusted commander found loving care found leaving in the United States as jacob reiner who is citizen 860 by the subject of the book. Jacob reimer, they were given like a kind of a dog tag number that fall is them through the war. Every kazneekia amand. His number was a 65. This is what his personnel record look like. This is his ass as personnel record required by in its investigation. Theres a familiar face to some of you perhaps this is also his personnel file that was uncovered by u. S. Investigators. Jacob reiner started a potatoes ship franchise in new york city. One tronic oh man found in chicago years earlier work for the crackerjack company. These men will leaving ordinary lives and again with Social Security cards and pension retirement jacob retired to this little house on the shoreline of lake carmel and new york and was leaving there essentially undetected for years and years. The push on these men. And to bring them to justice, is what drives this book. Thats a drama behind thisma bo. This is the master that the historians found broad in 1990 with jacob reiner news name on it. And his identification number. This is what led them to understand about fraud nikki and these perpetrators. Inside the Justice Department face of an d celtic goal set of challengeses and for one think they were racing against time. Because witnesses will going older on survivors will growing older. Right when this unit was started by an act of congress in 1970 united, everyone thought they had done the work and a handful of years. A couple of years for five years, tops. Surely that could be that many people leaving here on u. S. Soil. The work went on for 30 years. They found concentration camp, docs leaving here. Other men who participated in the persecution of jews, and of course a subset of the people they were looking up with the men of company he peered the first challenge that chase was just racing against time to not only understand at the heart of the history of thehe holocaust,t was wellknown in the west. But also than to identify men some of them change their names, how do you prove what they did 70 years ago. Six years ago, how do you do that. It was a great challenge to the investigators via historians and the prosecutors inside of this unit in the Justice Department. Perhaps one of the Biggest Challenges which is in the book. It is fascinating to me are the political pushback this unit based by prominent people in the unitedna states and with pat buchanan. Repeatedly called the shutter has brought the unit. What is done is done, we these all the men alone. If ir send them back hands of te soviets. I cant trust the soviets justice. And so pat buchanan and other prominent people some prominent people, push to shutter this unit for years. Another challenge they face, is what they found these men, nadine naturalized them and they convince this immigration judge to order them deported and removed from u. S. Soil, germany and austria would not take them back. They will not take them back to germany in fact theres a discussion and ive recounted in the book for one the heads of this unit said, we dont want to take your garbage back. Kind everything. The head of the soonest appointment, its your garbage. They just moveded here. They could not convince germany and austria to accept these men to allow the United States to remove them. They couldnt of course it right. Theres no way to do i that. And so, 1988, prosecutor in the office of special investigations, humana named Michael Bernstein. Decided to fly to austria to help thest austrians and to convince them to take back plus a perpetrators. Michael bernstein had two young children, he lived in maryland just outside of washington. It was considered, he was a historic prosecutor in this unit. Getaway of convincing every descendent on a a roster, to settle a case and to agree to leave this country that went out ever taking the guide to corporate he was a brilliant lawyer. And austria, on the time despite resisting for years, sitting a lot, maybe will take some of your defendants back. Austria was ready to pay to deal with the state department to take back austrian warren nothing perpetrators for leaving in the United States. The only think we need it was a signature. Soma conversing volunteered to go. He flew to austria just before monica in december of 1988. Managed to get the deal done. He stayed until the t ink was dy even though he wanted to get home to celebrate hanukkah with his children because his daughter was i think about seven and a son was four years old. So off he goes and is about to come on, he also his wife and called whos boss and said i really want to get home earlier switch my flight. Any switch it to pan am live one oh three. Which was blown up by a small over scotland. If you remember a bomb was wrapped in a because and stepped inside it was aom case. So Michael Bernstein died in the line of duty. From what 40 years at the time or so after the holocaust. It is one of the most tragic situations faced by people and is noticing unit. Unto this day, a picture Michael Bernstein sits on the desk of Eli Rosenbaum running unit for years as a top prosecutor. But this pushback, not only from people like pat buchanan but other countries, was an ongoing struggle for the people. So was convincing judges today naturalized men look like ordinary americans. The subject, one of the horse trance, eli on the left remember doctor black and doctor white, their second black was now both worlds d foremost record on the cat Training Camp in doctor white on the front and the subject about that doctor black and doctor white think. But one of the hardest things for the prosecutors, inside of this office was to convince a judge far removed from the holocaust, that men looked rather ordinary, should in fact, be stripped of their citizens ship. Jacob reiner, a 65, was taken to quote in new york in 1998. He was wearing hightop sneakers and sweater. In fact, couple of people in the courtroom said, who is the survivor and who is the nazi war criminal. It was hard to tell the difference. So many years after the war. And so fighting for convincing judges that these men should not have been here in the first place, is the great challenge faced by the nazi hunters in this book. Chip reiner news case, they know that he was a trusted collaborator in this Training Camp and he had gone to woodland another platoon of men in the very violent equitation of the lumen ghetto where feet felix and and his family lived. They had gone on to help suppress the jewish uprising. During that war so uprising. So the new all of the things. The other think that found out about jacob reiner is on questioning. He thought he could get away with his history here. His back on. So shut up in new york, that went out a lawyer and didnt think you need it one. He went to the u. S. Attorney news office in new york and he met with a couple of prosecutors from this nazi hunting unit, and on questioning, he admitted theyd taken part in a mass shooting operation. Some work outside the country will jewish men women and children will lined up against the edge of her weaving. And shot the bodies will dumped into the ravine in the up next couple came in and on and on it went. Witnesses shootings like this, there was essentially. On questioning, jacob reimer admitted to shooting in a man was in the remain claim to his head. All of us as if he wanted to be shot, he was begging for mercy. He just wanted to end it. And on questioning, reimer admitted too this. A play for you. Play a little bit of of it now. Take those second to hear it. Something about the man that you pointed to his h head the en told me. Yes. [screaming]. Did you finish them off. Twenty couldnt hear was his last line i finished him off. So off they go to quote jacob reimer on the witness and snow they they all all of the records including records he found in prague. In a of other documents about jacob reimer and have his confession. Nothing oh quote but again judges resisted because what they were staying was a man look like anybody else. Was very hard for this unit to convince judges today naturalized these men. Some tell the story, 24 countries. I essentially retrace the steps of the historians this book. As he was coming to quote his sneakers, but i was able to go to the lumen ghetto and retrace the steps of felix and lucy. I was able to go to the concentration camp in lumen for many people from loveland, jewish people will taken to die. I actually was able to see inside of the mass shooting. Atlike the kind that was descrid u. S. Investigators by jacob rumor. I was able to go to prague and actually find the original nazi records found by doctor white and doctor bock. In 1992. They make you put on my gloves. So that the oil from your fingers dont seep into original documents. This book took me about three years to report and write. I really came away with a new understanding of the holocaust which i had studied in college. I study growing up, to my grandparents, i thought i knew a lot about the holocaust. A couple of things really struck me. The first is, how many people it takes to kill so many so quickly. How may collaborators it took and people on the ground and people who are not part of the nazi party and not members of the ss. People probably got away with it. Many many many thousands of people. In the colonists, george will, covered the jacob reimer hearing in new york in tar 1992. Actually called them, thompson will. Just how many people it takes to kill. It never really thought about that as much as i did in writing this book. I was also really intrigued by how easy it was to indoctrinate the enemy. In that Training Camp. How easy it was to turn people aroundo to make them loyal foot soldiers. Some men deserted. They deserted the unit right. Better than to die is the good person than to live as a color. Jacob reimer, and many others stayed a on. In fact jacob reimer was human paid vacation and he was allowed to go visit his family in ukraine, or the area of ukraine, unescorted. In return and return back to the Training Camp. He continued on with the service to theit ss. He was so loyal he received citizen ship in nazi germany in 1944. At the end of the war. It was then retired and moved to nazi germany and live there is the decorated war hero. So is really fascinated by r the idea of choice. I who stated him and how easy it was tot convince the enemy to fight for you. Really fascinated by the germany austria resistance. The last known cause and he cant man ordered deported from the unitedte states was just supported in 2018. Deported last year. He had lived in queens new york, for 50 years. On this little middleclass neighborhood that i visited in queens, new york. He retired there, drawing attention whatever. My Social Security. And been ordered and removed from the United States 14 years ago. Let the department of justice and the state department could not find a country wheeling to take him back. It all refuse. Austria, germany, they refused which allowed this because nikki man, to essentially live in the United States and he was stateless. But he was here. As of the people in this unit desperately wanted to move him because i didnt want to allow him to die in peace. On american soil. And so in 2018, after 14 years of trusting foreign governments to take this man, they finally convinced germany to take this man back. And he was flown back to germany where he died ae few months later. At the edge of 95. Yep. I asked the people inside of the Justice Department, is this revenge because well have comes up a lot. As this revenge. This retribution, what is this. In the response really fascinates me. It is that these men will never supposed to be here in the first place. They were not supposed to get a visa and they were not supposed toto be admitted into the United States. Some are taking back what they shouldnt of had to begin with. They should not have been allowed to live here. And theyre doing it because that is what the law and the american or that is our law. Theyre doing it because or in behalf of the Holocaust Survivors that they were leaving sidebyside for years in the United States. On behalf of then war veterans across the notion to help train them. And theyre doing it on behalf of the defendants of holocaustst survivors who are here. Why should these men be allowed to die in peace. If on the u. S. Soil. So the people inside the Justice Department dont consider it revenge. The considerate justice. And that even the delayed justice is better than no justice at all and that is perhaps more important now than ever to show the rest of the world that this kind for that we war criminals have no place o leaving in u. S. Soil and then every time the people inside the Justice Department will question, why are you going after guys. His many a years. Leave them alone. Thee elopement. Very white would see, years later, if we found one of the terrorists who blow up pan am one oh three, when we see well, 30 years has passed, lets just let them go. Of course with it. So why should be any different for perpetrators of war crimes in the holocaust. Why should it beau any differen. And so they really will doing this in the name of justice in the did it successfully. Justice department was able to prosecute more this man from 1991 and any other country in the world. Including germany. And to this day they continue to do thehe work although the unit has expanded out to include war criminals from other parts of the world, guatemala and bosnia. In other wartorn countries. Unfortunately, there still as busy as ever. For me as a writer, i was really moved and inspired by the men and women doing this work. As an Investigative Reporter, i its been so many years writing about government corruption and mismanagement. I worked at miami and washington, you can imagine im never shorted stories. But this was a kind of story. This is the story that even though it was about darkness and dark moments, i really found the story about live. In a really found that the men and women in this book, will inspiring, the story of lucina remember sitting at my desk, but after night listening to their account is just some of what the will to survive and what they went through in back lucina go to her synagogue look at the role family feeling few sacred synagogue look what i did. We wont there was nothing, look what ing produced. Im so honored to let you guys know that their families are today we just why not. [applause]. [applause]. That is why it i see this is the story about darkness and also about live. I hope you have a chance to read the book. Thanks for having me here. [applause]. Sue mckay. The nazi files will kept recent austria, prague, why will they destroyed. What if the nazis destroy them, why didnt they keep him. Select i get that airtime we talk. They destroyed a lot of records. The Training Camp was considered all of us mundane. In terms of in their eyes, was Training Camp. And so as the soviets will coming in, to poland the minute cut nikki and the leader called survival, the estate nor the place they would to sprout. As of the likely took all of the records with them. In their stash andhe prompt. Let the ss students destroyed because it was really considered and rather mundane Training Camp. It was at high level. Will these people going to school, they were terrorizing schools. He came into town. These people, will not part of that group of they were a Different Group as a its mike thats right. Collaborators. They were not germans. There will a number of ethnic germans reimer had been born in ukraine and what we now notice you create in his family had migrated their years and years earlier. So even though he was ethnic german, he was a part of germany. So there will 5000 men they were police and collaborators with rough part of theut ss. Theyre not part of the nazi. Arty the whole page that is the name of the officers. The nazis, and this case, the department wheat let the men willingly. And how do we correlate that. Steve did was at book effect of doing a talk at miami with the up next week. He wrote about operations paperclip which was the fact that the cia, led him to certain oddities nazis. In that because i had been extensively written about before, i didnt focus onri tha. Other books have been written obviously about nazi hunting on the good books about nazi hunting some men affect nikki because nothing has been written to this extent about the Training Camp. I was fascinated with the idea that they could recruit an army of 5000 been to0 do the dirtiest jobs in poland. Ps the cia as we all know did let men and that because the cover before written about, i wanted the different live. A great talk so far but look for ford to bring a book for sure. Thanks for taking picture with me over this. I was wondering, it would seem that ive read accounts of the hud for the remnants of nazi war criminals and other books such as hitlers seems like many of these hunts work in it in a judges will not interested. Do you think the u. S. Missed any chances by not the law did not permit them to prosecute any of these criminals themselves. You think justice was necessarily served by nearly deporting them. Do think their home countries had an interest in prosecuting them. Rethink this was in many cases, just another way for them to die or maybe they wouldve wanted to live anyway if there is and probably backlash after the war. Good questions. Thank you for asking. So the people inside of the Justice Department obviously wouldve liked, a war crimes trial wouldve made sense right. Let the people inside the Justice Department did everything that was within the power to do. Everything that the constitution allowed them tohe do. They could not try people for war crimes on u. S. Soil. Because the crimes will not committed here. The constitution didnt allow that. It wouldve taken a long long e time and great political will to change the law. And they didnt have the time. They worked racing against time. People growing older and witnesses and defendants. So they did everything they could in civil quote, it took these men and convince judges to do naturalize them. To strip them of u. S. Citizenship. Which he should have had in the first place. Then they would take them in immigration quote and convince an immigration judge, to order them parted fornd the this procs took years, years to build these cases and pull everything together waiting on judgment and even then, even when they had done all of that, they couldnt often remove them in a number of them, will able to die on u. S. Soil. Because no country would accept them. All of that beingm. Said, i thik the people inside this unit would tell you theyid did everything they could and to great success, to at least policeman accountable. They did everything they could on our offered and for the historians,e it wasnt just a matter of tracking his men, it was also a matter of correcting the record of history. Especially in the case of trawniki. The historians knew that this place existed, they didnt understand this role. In the murder and the destruction of the jews of occupied poland. They didnt understand just how it works. So the newark able to correct history and find these men and hold them accountable as best as they could. And they still prosecuting known in the traveling man or the other nazi refugees are nazi former nazi ss and whatever country. Wn in this how many do they think are still in this country. Throughout thats a great question i wish they would tell me that. Ilt they dont tell us that. Especially journalists. Until the cases are made public. I suspect there might be a couple of cases coming up but ie have no, just a gut instinct on my part. The office of special investigations has become part of bigger unit inside of the justice unit now to look for war criminals in other parts of the world. Well see if theres another one. Case in 2018, the been working on for years. Suddenly after 14 years overnight, that man was sent back to germany. Ninetyfive usual. I was wondering why they hadnt been tried as war criminals new internet however in my mind, im thinking of israel how they were able to try these people and they were sent to israel they were tried there. What if that happened in these cases. Sue mike thatst the second question i get every book talking him by just imprinted my mother said the same think. I dont think israel had great interest in taking back his h m. Not necessarily is really witnesses, they did take back john, right. Thats another story. He was accused of being oh man named ivan the terrible. There is a series on television about a number he was accused about being ivan the terrible. That death death camp. He was a vicious man. He was found guilty in israel. So israel didnt take him back. He was found guilty there and the cast case unraveled. He was accounting humidity did serve in the death camp does not the other death camp. Also in occupied poland. The is really is new this and they declined to prosecute. And so he was allowed to come back into the unitedro states ad returned to his live here. Even though answered in this or death camps. Until that nazi unit decided to prosecute him a second time. That was a huge hurdle that the head of the nazi eli rosenbach, etiquette to janet reno, the attorney general of the time, and asked for permission to take this case against him back to quote a second time. And they successfully prosecuted him a second time. Germany took in fact, and he was convicted in the murder of 27000 or so00 jews. In a civil war death can. But to answered your question, israel did take him back. There was not a lot of interest from israel over the years. To take back more. There just wasnt. When the citizenship was taken away from them, how could they live within entitled Social Security to get l medicare, how could they support themselves and take care ofic themselves. They were stripped of their citizenship and their eventually here considered stateless men. They were still here and there will still part of this country. Still leaving here and paying mortgages read still trying pensions all of the sinks. All of them continued. All of those privileges continued. Yes. And thats why it was the single greatest frustration space faced by this unit for years. If they did all of this work, the prove their cases to the point where judges, in some cases these cases will appealed to appellate quote up to the u. S. Supreme court. So quote after quote would affirm these s decisions. Yes, this man is the nazi war criminal. And if they couldnt remove him from u. S. Soil. In some cases. They ended up doing it but in the number of cases they struggled. To the point where the men will able to die here. [inaudible conversation] have there been any studies about into the personalities of hethese men into the backgrounds of these men, because you describe them as being brutal beyondnd brittle. So even worse than the ss. Can you. Is the generalization but these men, remember a lot of them came from european countries. For generations, before the war had been ingrained in their societies, so yes, a lot of them will more brutal than the ss. In the jews of occupied poland, in large part came to see the fear that more than the ss. There are also far greater in numbers. The ss staff the killing center. Really the trawniki man, they were boots on the ground for they were the ones that operated the gas chambers. The forced use from the trains, directly into the gas chambers. I always missed nasty things but i cant do polishing. But they were not concentration camps printed they were death camps. New examination centers. They didnt have barracks because jews didnt see live there. They were taken right from the train, into the gas chambers. Because the trawniki men will doing that work. So jacob reiner, said in quote that he was a victim of the nazis. That like so many others said that right. And he had to fire at the men. Because he didnt choke loyalty to the ss, he wouldve been the up next one shot. So with the department of justice arguing that cases yet, but you got for service metals, you did so well they were granted citizenship to nazi germany. He received paid vacations, you came back on your own accord to continue fighting alongside the ss, you couldve deserted but you did it. That was the case. Why did you do it. Summoned deserted trawniki. They did not come back. But reimer 5000 or so others stayed on. And he with great loyalty. Not a huge number of people a lot of means men after the war did come from the soviet union, they were caught and tried there tried to work in convicted we just did it know that because we werent talking to the soviets about these things. And took years and years for american investigators to realize that the soviets themselves had prosecuted trawniki men. And we are able to help build cases here in the United States. Forgot the name of the american nazi hunting the proper name for the unit. The office of special investigations. Any one time, de novo review was in this office of special visitations. It was funny. Maybe 40 or 50 people or so. They started with investigators. More like criminal investigators like dunn and management who work inside of the federal government and ultimately, they started using historians because they realized they desperately need it that kind of context. Over many years, we didnt really do a lot of nazi hunting in the units is pretty early to get to the 70s for there to be political willse to do this kind of work. Thank you for your work. How do we learn from history here. Of generations, not allow mass murderers to only have the risk of citizenship being stripped. Weve got a figure something out. There has to be justice in the world beyond what there is. Very profound question that i think c, we can all talk about that for hours. I think the first step is to show that we draw the line in the no matter how many years have passed in this country, you will be stripped of your citizenship if we find out that you are a war criminal. And so the people in the office of special investigations especially the lawyers, if said the whole career they couldve gone on to more lucrative careers. Son exactly fun to ben a federal government sermono sermon. Eli rosenbaum has a law degree from harvard. These are top top top lawyers his mother who lives working in this drab Government Office in the first office, they had mice crawling across the floor. These will not, highprofile prosecutors that will making headlines in the New York Times and the Washington Post. And they did this work because they were on, they felt that it was the right think to do. That there has to be a line. The matter how many years have passed. Will going to come after you if we find out that youou are that youve done something wrong newman, years of aspirated but i dont know about how to be it in the future and one of the more depressing thoughts to me is that thatt unit is just as busy as ever. Start bag of comments having gone back to how it took a country to hunt down jews not just an army you comment on th that. The people, it took the people of poland,. And so, im sure many of you have been to poland i would imagine. As my first visit to poland and i found poland to be at very wooded country. It was occupied by the germans and then by the t soviets. And there will a lot of people in poland, the polish underground, and upstate jews. Including, the senia and felix who i told you about. So there will a lot of people who helped and a lot of people who collaborated. Really wanted c countries. Maybe i can shed some live on this print how l these war criminals and the characters can enter the country. Im a survivor. I was liberated from a family. After i was liberated, i was 16 years old. I was into a displaced person camp. It not only and had few people who are jewish, but some together with all kinds of other people who never had a country to go to. It took a while for the commander of the occupied for forces of america to finally come to grips with this in separate these displaced persons from one to try to hide and i remember before i was allowed to come to america, it took me three or four years of venting by seeing seat and carefully asking and papers and all kinds of investigative americans. Before i was allowed to come to america. And im sure in spite. [inaudible conversation] audio problem. [background sounds] he was staying that in a displaced persons camp, he was vetted very carefully. You think theres probably a lot of people who participated that managed to slip in. In case ofha reimer news case, t is called citizen a 65, thats his ss issued id number. Jacob reimer was vetted. By the military the u. S. Army. And actually lifted on his immigration papers that he had served in company key. This trainingmi camp. But we didnt know what it was at the time. U. S. Army investigators had no uidea that it was a place for mass murder in occupied poland for infecting reimer was given a recommendation by red cross supervisor at the time. He has its been the postwar years in unique, suffering american gis to hollywood movies at night. He actually worked for the lewis army. And so, he came in with this red cross supervisor recommendation that call them Something Like a loyal and honest and hardworking man who would make a great american. Her great u. S. Citizen. And sent to your. , you are right, they just didnt know anough to let him in. Despite that kind of venting. Because he was vetted. In that year when he was in the United States, and the u. S. Investigators got onto him, he said yeah, i was a carnegie but i was just a paymaster in the camp administration. No well have onas my hands. Very mundane work. In the u. S. Department of justice didnt know any better. Until they started investigating and figured out what that camp actually was. You said our state department was reticent about what is your perspective on that. When did you learn. The Justice Department why not necessarily through official channels go to other countries and see, taken nazi back. They were relying on the state department to do it. Thats the state Department News job. And so i dont have an opinion on this. I think the people inside the Justice Department might see this some years the state department pushed harder than others. But i will see from my reporting, last year in 2018, the state department and the Justice Department came together to deport this nosy war criminal in queens newet york. Over a long time, i think the department of justice would tell you, they couldnt get as much eetraction as they wouldve wand to get with the state department. [background sounds] we heard the gentleman of this over here that was a survivor and had await all of these years to get out. And that our government allowed people to come here and the truth of the matter is that our government recruits nazis to come here knowing there that the nasty past to help in the cold war. They were scientists and they allowed them, and it brought them here knowing what they done. For those of you who didnt hear. This woman was talking about the fact that the u. S. Government the cia hadnt recruited nazi son is to come here after the war. En and that is incredibly outrageous. I hear what you are staying. This book is focused on a totally different think. Than that. But i understand your. Ladies into the man i know we can see here the rest of the day asking to be questions, but i think some of your questions will be answered in her book. And i do want to thank you for being here with us today. Let us and thanking debbie again. [applause]. [background sounds] the museum remains open until 5 00 p. M. Please take advantage of this. We are here, she came tells the life of Harriet Tubman. Really but this talk a little while ago, i did not know that everybody would be talking about Harriet Tubman. Idy didnt realize there is a movie coming out. That totally blew past bni thought totally great a book about terry Harriet Tubman thats great. So im super excited that there is a National Conversation about Harriet Tubman coming on right now