Good afternoon and one of the Program Managers here at the Commonwealth Club is this anyones first time . Welcome the 116 yearold nonprofit and we use the thoughts to engage in civil dialogue. To have advance notice popular programs if you are interested in joining please look at our Membership Team on the way out and a conversation of decisionmaking if you buy or renew today youll also receive a free bag. Before we look at the upcoming programs Nicholas Kristof will discuss their book february 15 the cochair of the progressive caucus will discuss impeachment and medicare for all and then Washington Post will offer his take on the 2020 election. Now a few housekeeping details you are free to engage with us online please make sure your screens are turned down in your ringer is turned off write it down legibly pre signed copies the number one New York Times bestseller donald j trumps america is available for purchase after the program and with a short personalization but first names only also a reminder we are Nonpartisan Forum and they should be held to make their remarks without interruption please join me to welcome our gas. [applause] one guess. Hey Everyone Welcome to today at the Commonwealth Club i am the politics correspondent and cohost of the political breakdown podcast im really excited to be here today with phil rucker who Donald Trumps campaign now that you already know to turn their attention to the Trump Presidency and their book tells the story of president s first term as a careful pattern of disorder to interview firsthand witnesses and how the president has shaken up alliances to compromise the integrity such as the fbi and others which we will get into it has received extensive coverage including the president himself it said another fake book congratulations. [applause] please join me to welcome them here today to discuss their boo book. Thank you for having us. As you can tell this is good territory for the book. People are interested in it. I tweeted ahead of time i had more notice interviewing fellow journalists and politicians prick i feel there is more pressure. I dont know if we can get to everybody. But it is a page turner. You frame it in a narrative way so being a journalist i want to talk about the process based on hundreds of hours of interviews and 200 sources, why this book and why now . If youve been following the news at all phil and i are colleagues at the Washington Post and for three years we were covering this presidency it felt like bullets and straps now one strapped all going past our temples every day. And it was so shocking what we were reporting we would have forgotten the shocking thing from the day before. We just want to go down deep into some of the events we were witnessing. This is history unfolding right in front of us with something we have never seen before. And again to make sense of what was happening it cant just be the story of chaos every day but we wrote a lot about that it has to be something more and we found out a lot more details and that there is a method to the madness. How long did it take. That. Of time is probably nine or ten months to be focused full time during those four months focusing on writing the book but to be honest we end up spending a lot of nights and weekends to get this done but we felt an urgency with the project because we are living history every day we thought it was so important to get the information out there spec for those who have not read the book a lot of them have made news so i am curious as reporters who is things are to break stuff how did you decide we need to report this now or we are saving it for the book. You are right as a journalist with a slightly sensitive topic something i have struggled with because what do we want to do most we want to put news in the newspaper so in this case with our amazing editors if the details change the nature of what we know about this presidency so there were some instances. Around the time of the president zelensky call the president makes to Vladimir Zelensky and say i want you to do us a favor that landed the impeachment investigation and now trial to other foreign calls the president has made to be overwhelmingly Republican National security and we pressed upon them some of this information needed to be in the newspaper right now and cannot wait for the book. Dont always attribute those to those people and i think, being a reporter myself are doing a delicate dance tween people who wanted to be anonymous and people who want it totally off the record versus on background. How did you approach the question of anonymity because i think i could see the argument on both sides on one side more information is better, on the other side does it undercut the strength of the book for people dont know who certain things are coming from. The anonymous source is question we welcome because there are a lot of interesting things to say about it. Phil is exactly right to hit the note that people who eventually broke their science with us and told us what really happened in some of the rooms had repeatedly refused to talk to us and our colleagues and our competitors. We write in an omniscient voice. Review emails and make sure this happened on this day as you remember it. Theres a scene in which we describe the reaction of some of the officers in the room when the president started barking at everybody and calling them dopes and babies in the pentagon. We dont want anyone to feel that there is a dispute with one moment. I came away from it thinking i have an idea of some of the people who did talk to you. Carol and i one of the most important things we did in reporting this book is protect the people who were talking to us. They had took great risk to tell us what happened behind the scenes to tell us what it is the president said to show us how it was so much worse than we knew in real time and they did so because they knew they trusted us we would protect them so we try to do that in the book. Obviously trump is not a fan of the book. [laughter] you missed his good line he called us abhe called us stone cold losers from amazon wp if you want to suggest the music we are looking for a stone cold losers the music. [laughter] an audio version. The next hamilton. The book is very tough on trump. I feel very matteroffact about his shortcomings. Guys frame it as your judge of journalists wanting to share the truth with the public. You also dont throw any punches when it comes to calling things as you see them in terms of what youve witnessed as washington reporters prior to this. One example of many is talking about a speech attorney general Rod Rosenstein was given to the dea you guys write he spoke with reverence for the rule of law not framework and ab transparency and basic fairness. Which trump was undermining daily. Talk about how the calculation of that pretty blunt statement in terms of the umbrella of objectivity because i think theres often a misunderstanding that objectivity is letting each side have their say and not making a call. Keep in mind that moment. Im really delighted you brought that moment because a lot weve interviewed a lot and nobody has singled that out. Journalists props to you. That moment is a seen as much Rod Rosenstein the jeopardy activity attorney general and Justice Department is personally his reputation of three decades hangs in the balance. He has written a memo that is being cited by the president as the reason to fire jim call me and he doesnt believe that he actually at least to the sources we spoke to, he does not believe he argued for firing jim call me and doesnt believe its all being sort of served up as huge justification for this. People are thinking hes a tool of the president and their questioning whether it your old friend and prosecutor is a kiss up essentially. In this moment when he is giving this speech is a really vulnerable time for him, hes really emotional. The reason we chose those words was because donald trump had by this point called the Justice Department the trump Justice Department. He had threatened sessions, jeff sessions, the attorney general, multiple times and berated him for recusing himself from this investigation. Argued that he should on recuse himself which would be like ethically impossible you cant say i have a conflict and then say, guess what i dont. And all of these ways in which he was breaking this norm and two things come together. Rod rosenstein being like i care about the rule of law look like a smoke and the president president very much not caring about that. How much trumps mood swings seem to really encompass not just the way the white house operates but the way our government has been operating under him. And this undermining of the intelligence National Security apparatus. I want to get into the first part which is, hes incredibly abusive to his staff even people long term allies who are very close with him seems like the kids it banca and jared seem to be some of the only people who escape that are they the only ones . Because a pretty much. We found, this is not a New Discovery about donald trump. Weve known for some time that hes abusive to people and the loyalty goes one way. He expects loyalty from the people who work for him but does not give in return. What carol and i found a misreporting is not the abusive management style was so much more worse then we knew in real time. He would call kirstjen nielsen, his secretary of Homeland Security, at 5 00 a. M. To bark orders at her. He would call her late at night after watching lou dobbs on fox news to say lou had a great idea for the border, go do it and then call her 5 00 a. M. The next morning to wonder why it hadnt been done and she had to tell him, sir, people are sleep. The staff at the Homeland Security determine our sleeping right now. He would berate his staff the way he handled Rex Tillerson, the secretary of state come at the end when he fired him while tillers and was on a Diplomatic Mission to africa, which was to clean up the relationship with african countries because trump had called them as whole nations. There are a lot of these episodes that paint a portrait of what hes like as a manager and what is like leaving the government and its not us being hard on him are critical of him are taking the side, we are just telling you what happened behindthescenes and a lot of readers certainly draw conclusions about that. One of the tweets i got from somebody whos obviously pretty liberal was like how did you manage to make me feel bad for Rex Tillerson . Its true i think a lot of people who might disagree with the policies of this administration will feel some sympathy or empathy for even some of the most hardline jeff sessions, kiersten nielsen, you guys write at one point nielsen is standing with trump as he signs this executive order to try to end the separation of children at the border and as at same time his administration was circulating a completely different eo than what she thousand being signed. Yes. Why . Why would even do that . There are two really good points that come to mind from your question or rather two good questions in what you just said. I find it really interesting about this presidency is something that phil and i learned in an eyeopening way that even we who had been there from day one were sort of taken aback by this but these grownups that were in the room so to speak at the beginning you may not agree with them politically or philosophically you may think your personality style isnt so great. Rex tillerson was reviled in many parts of the state department for wanting to cut the bureaucracy there and reorganize and not being very approachable but he and john kelly, first secretary of Homeland Security then chief of staff defense secretary jim mattis, these were people who kept telling the president , you dont want to do this let me tell you why. You dont want to do this and heres the National Security implications if you do this. The president in the abuse of management saw you highlight drove those people out of the room. The result was now hes increasingly surrounded by people he viewed their mission as telling the president yes, here we are in an impeachment phase of his administration not many people get here as quickly as he did. Many people asked me, how in the world do these people serve donald trump . They have a conservative ideology they have a philosophy, they hope to serve this agenda and they hope to guide the novice donald trump. They found out they just got a lion roar in their face every day and many of them either were driven out or left. And you say even after that, sessions still really admires trump. But before he drove out a lot of those people, i want to go back to that. It seemed like the beginning of his presidency was a lot of meetings people were trying to teach him presidency. [laughter] talk about one of those like facts of what is you learn that you didnt know before this reporting about that part of it. There was an effort early on in the predates the inauguration during the transition when trumps advisors try to transform him somehow into a more traditional president into somebody who respect our Intelligence Community who would follow protocols and uphold alliances and so forth. They tried for many months into the presidency. The tank seen as the most jarring and dramatic moment and if you havent read the excerpt, this is what ran in the Washington Post a week or so ago where madison tillotson and gary cohen take the president to the pentagon to a sacred room where decisions of war and peace are made and try to teach them about the world to show him where our troops are deployed and explain why we have so many troops on the korean peninsula. Why do we have an alliance called nato. Why are we active in the middle east even if were not at war in some of those parts of the world. He got really frustrated with the tutorial and snapped at them and this is where he called them dopes and babies. There were other alarming moments for the people who work for trump. One was when he made his first trip to asia and the end of 2017 and they stopped in hawaii on the way and the president did what many president s before him done which is pay a visit to pearl harbor to the uss arizona. Its donald trump with Melania Trump and john kelly and his chief of staff to go out to see the uss arizona the president says to kelly, john, what is this all about . He had heard a pearl harbor he knew it was the scene of some epic battle but he didnt know what really happened there and he didnt know the historic importance of that japanese attack and how it led us into world war ii and recast the entire world order and it spoke to the fact that trump came into office to become president without a full understanding or appreciation of the american story and our history and heritage as a nation. That was a rare instance where he actually asked too. Usually it was him being sort of, other people trying to force information down his throat. I want to go back to secretary tillers and for a moment because the sense ive gotten before reading your book was really and that he did try to get a lot of the state department there was a lot of unhappiness within the his department. The book shows a side of him where he stood up to defend the diplomatic and military National Security structure. Carol, how do you square those things . You mentioned some of the negative reporting about the state department may have been a Smear Campaign by the white house but it also seems like there is legitimate criticism of his time there. I think theres some legitimate reasons. Ive interviewed a lot of people in the state department. I understand why they felt that his tenure was a little bit traumatic for them. He was proposing big cuts. He was proposing a reorganization. He wasnt available to them but hes a ec sweet guy. The head of exxon one of the Largest Companies on the globe gladhanding with employees not to dismiss that was not really in his major wheelhouse. Its funny to me and ironic to me how much phil and i learned behind the scenes about what he was dealing with with the president. His number one boss. President trump, Vice President mike pence, couple other people and they are discussing somebody is discussing prosecutions of american businessmen whod been found to have under intense investigation have been found to be bribing Foreign Governments and foreign officials to get business overseas and the president perks up at this word bribery and says, what is up with that . We need to get rid of the bribery law. Its not fair that u. S. Companies cant bribe foreign officials. He looks at Rex Tillerson and says, i want you on that rex, lets figure out how to get rid of that law. Bill and i were just learning this from various sources going, wait a minute, Rex Tillerson secretary of state, he cant overturn the law. Then Rex Tillerson basically jaw on the ground says, mr. President , and not the guy for that. According to our reporting then the president whips around over to stephen miller, who is also in the room, and says, stephen, lets get an executive order. We need to allow these people to bribe foreign officials. Rex had his hands full. Hes dealing with this, i say first name i shouldnt, secretary of state tillerson. He had another episode with the president where hes trying to guide donald trump and learning about who is Vladimir Putin, Rex Tillerson has met Vladim