Nick some. Good afternoon everybody. Can everybody hear me. Im very short. Good afternoon. Welcome to politics and prose, i am travis cohen a bookseller here and also in charge of the on cyprus Traditions Club at the store. This to quick housekeeping and they will jump right in. Between politics and prose there is three location at the wharf, union market, we host around 1000 authors a year. So if you need help tracking that as we do if you want the full last we have flyers at the info desk in an updated calendar on our website which we highly encourage people to check out. Please remind everyone to silence your cell phones, thats always not fun, as we open the floor to questions and we have two standing microphones here just that one. And we are both recording audio and video today. So thats good incentives to one silence your cell phone and also asked sissy into question so we can get to as many people as possible. And also a good reminder after were done here if you want to pick up a book we have them all up at the front registers. You can pick up a book coming back over here for the signing. You. Other than that please leave your cheers in place we have another talk after this one. Today we are here to hear from james man of international studies, a prolific writer of u. S. Policy james work appeared in the olanta income of the new york review of books, the american prospect, and has many previous books under his belt, the rise of the balkans, china fantasy, and to name a few. His new book focuses on the friendship and dick cheney and former National Security adviser colin paul and we look at how it served as a force in american politics for an erosion of political identity and internal debate regarding global security. Its also an intellectual biography of two complicated men, one that emphasizes the Human Element of Human Affairs and how it is the predisposition of people that drive the broward broader powers that be. Thats get into it. Welcoming to james to politics and prose. Appmac to make thank you. And before i start, just a word or two of things to politics and prose because the store opened in the fall of 1989, my first book came out a few weeks later in my opening events was at politics and prose. This is my eighth event here and, i am deeply grateful not just for hosting me, but for being such a great bookstore over the years. This book is about the two men who were really among the leading figures in americas relationship with the world, at the time of the end of the cold war and the two decades that followed. If you take the period from 1988 from Mikael Gorbachev was making clear that he wanted to end the cold war, to 2008, and you look at the National Security office i mean the body that meets to decide American Foreign policy at least in non autocratic presidencies, that is the cabinet level officials of the various agencies. Any say, who is there . Even the twoterm president s, bill clinton, george w. Bush were there for only eight years, colin powell was there for nine, he served for american president s as chairman of the joint chiefs for two of those president s and secretary of state. And, cheney surfer 12, for secretary of defense and then ate as Vice President. No one had the kind of longevity they did. And they are also strong personalities to look at there was a time some of you remember when colin powell was so popular many people thought he could have been president. And on the other hand, dick cheney was so powerful there is a time when many people thought he was the president. And they are great ironies i find as i delve into this and looking at them, powell thought of cheney and chaneys partner, Donald Rumsfeld as politicians where he was not. I was coal and pollens concept of himself. Yet, it was powell who is a charismatic figure who is great with pick people and crowds. I have the reminiscence of someone who worked with both of them during the operation desert storm, the gulf war that was paul who said he traveled around the golf the area of the golf during the gulf war and in the lead up to its and he did so with cheney and there would be troops and people lined up at the chain fences as the plane with millions and he would have to say, mr. Secretary, would you like to go say hello to people and cheney would not have thought of it on his own. But to go in would seem to be happy to meet people. Powell wouldve been there in a nanosecond. That is just too he was. He really was a people person. And meanwhile, cheney, it takes very little time to talk to the people around cheney to realize he thought of colin powell as a politician because powell and his mind wasnt a policymaker. And chaneys own definition of policymaker was something he believed that the more unpopular his policies were the more important his policies were in the more they should count. So, cheney thinks of powell is a politician. The book covers the full span of their careers. Both individually and with one another. Isnt just about the invasion of iraq, its not just about the two wars with the rack. It starts with vietnam because vietnam is fundamental to both of them in the very different reactions to it, really they are motivating forces. Powell did two tours in the war, and he came away from vietnam with a passionate dislike for this is his phrase, slide rule bureaucrats and sliderule bureaucrats was another name i think for robert mcnamara, the secretary of defense who always have ideas that did not seem to translates on the ground of what could be done in vietnam. In the post vietnam era was crucial to powells rise because in powell acknowledges, vietnam had shown a deep divide racially between the older white generals and africanamerican troops and powell was the guy who could really talk across this divide and help bridget. Cheney did not serve at all in vietnam come i think you all know the stories there is one quote in which he said that he had other priorities during those years. But in a way, powell cheney, vietnam was a driving force in chaneys career because he served in the white house in the immediate aftermath of vietnam, especially in the Gerald Ford Administration when congress was passing a wave of new laws the war powers act is the best known of them but there was a series limiting the power of the presidency and the executive branch and cheney, then in the ford years and even when he became a member of congress was motivated by an intense desire to reduce and eliminate congressional restrictions on the power of the presidency. So one aspect of the book is to look at the history as it was and to explore the many myth mythsshiver a list that has arisen between these two guys. We all have a tendency to reorder history so it fits more neatly into what is happening now to our current preoccupations. To take one example, and i heard this several times since i was reporting the record in the book. These two guys hated each other. Now, that may be an understandable impression that people got after the two thousands and after the george w. Bush administration, when they really did dislike each other. But, you can extrapolate backwards as many even friends of cold powell have said that. When you look at the appointment of cold powell in 1989 when cheney was defense secretary, had he been some of powells closest friends say, cheney could not have done that. It must have been the white house. Mustve been george bush sr. Well, this is not what the record shows. First of all, these two guys meant once in germany in 1986 when cheney was in congress it was a congressional delegation and the delegation stops and powell is a core commander there. And they meet and talk and before very long powell is pulled back by his old friend and mentor, Frank Carlucci who is becoming the National Security advisor in the wake of irancontra. He pulls powell back to be the deputy National Security advisor and then powell goes on to be reagans final National Security advisor. And in those years chaneys and congress cannot record shows he confided in the archives and the reagan library, cheney was called school today he needed some conduct required cheney was intensely involved in was the guy he was secretly go to task for favors. They became very Close Friends at the end of the Reagan Administration has powell as he thinks leaving to go back to the uniform military, he exchanges notes with cheney, wishing you good luck for your career and vice versa, these notes are signed, your buddy colon, the idea that these guys didnt like each other just doesnt square with the record and then, the appointment of powell as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the record shows and cheney himself has admitted this in memoirs, cheney became secretary of defense in march of the year that george bush senior takes office because the first nomination john tower goes down and they bring cheney and from the start cheney is pushing to a. Powell is chairman of the joint chiefs. Powell is much more junior me hes not 35 but in military terms, he is much more junior than all of the other officers, cheney wants him. And there is reluctance at the white house. Hes too young, does he have enough experience, even bush senior says, maybe we should give him a couple more appointments first and cheney pushes and then even then in order to appease bush he goes down and pretense he is not interviewing him but talks to them about to see whether he is ready to be chairman of the joint chiefs and comes back and says that he is. Theres a whole charade, but not only is bush opposed, but brent in the white house is another reason that he doesnt want powell as part of the team which is powell has just been the National Security advisor and reagans last year which is to say that he was brents predecessor as National Security adviser. And i think many of you grasp that people dont like to have their predecessors in the job around a high level position. So was openly opposed. So its an example of the way people take the iraq politics, they agreed with powell on iraq sort of, will get to that, bush senior agreed with powell so it mustve been them and not cheney. History doesnt work that way. So, has defense secretary and chairman of the joint chiefs they go on to run not one, but two wars together, panama on the goal for. They are the first serious military operations that are successful since world war ii, i think we can dispense with the invasion of grenada a serious, and outcome of these guys they ride in a victory parade together through new york, they get their tickertape parade, they become national heroes, they are both mentioned as Vice President ial candidates. You wont believe this now but the young marine down will roll one piece in the New York Times in 1992 reporting that powell and cheney were being hailed on capitol hill as the most effective combination we have seen in this country since babe ruth and lou gehrig area now you might say, what are these two guys doing together with such very different beliefs and backgrounds and personalities, because they see him again looking backwards so different on the issues. And, that is understandable, but you are understandably forgetting with the issues were in the late 80s. That brought them together and the issue one of the main issues can be summed up in the word peace dividend. The democrats on capitol hill were pushing for large reductions in the Defense Budget, the cold war is coming to an end, and powell and cheney were day in and day out one testimony after another along with the third guy, paul wolfowitz. Theyre all on the same Team Fighting the democrats in congress to not cut the Defense Budget too much. So, not only did they Work Together in two wars, but on what was then the issue of the day what we now tend to forget, an issue that is understandably forgotten, they were aligned on that issue as well. And its true, they did not see i tie all the time, powell was more reluctant than cheney or bush or schoolcraft to go to war in response to the invasion of iraq. Im sorry, the invasion of kuwait. And you know, is true cheney leaves the pentagon without saying goodbye to powell and powell was miffed at that, but that is basically cheney is powell himself said on the whole, these guys they are not at each others houses every day but they are up at night in the pentagon sitting in one officer or another schmoozing is powell records and powell rights as cheney is leaving, we could finish one another sentences. Thats how close they were. In this amicable relationship continues until right before george w. Bush takes office and then thanksgiving of 2000 while the election is still undecided, cheney has his fourth heart attack and he is going to be in the hospital for thanksgiving and so, someone brings him and his family thanksgiving dinner in the hospital and that someone is a elmo powell, chaneys wife. So, now as i talk about the Second Bush Administration i need to debunk another big myth, one which is commonly held by all kinds of people which is that cheney changed. Cheney was transformed, that cheney was this nice moderate guy in the Ford Administration and worked well inside well, he did work well but he was a nice, moderate guy in the george h. W. Bush administration. And, this is not just street myth, this is a myth that is propagated by people like Brent Scowcroft in the iraq war words he said i dont know cheney anymore. Cheney has changed. And there is also what i call the cardiology theory. Everybody in this room know someone at a dinner party who knows a cardiologist jordan is a cardiologist or wants to be a cardiologist to says chaneys heart attack and again, he had had three before we ever get to the beginning of the Bush Administration, for by the time you took office, that somehow they changed him and they transformed him from moderate. Not true. And what i found really the closer you look, cheney was conservative. He was always conservative. And it tells us something about ourselves i think that we think you change. So lets look at the reasons that people think you change. One reason is that cheney subscribed to what i called the hired gun theory. He served as white house chief of staff and the next year he went out to wyoming to run for congress, 1977. And a Washington Post reporter goes out to wyoming to cover or do a piece on him running for congress and he asked a very washington question. He says, after you have been the white house chief of staff wouldnt it be a comedown to come back as a freshman congressman . Thats the pecking order of washington has some see it in chaneys answer was very revealing of his entire approach to things. He said you know, when you are in a staff job youre never yourself. You are just someones hired gun. And to actually if you look at his service in the Ford Administration, you find that for example, on form policy there was a soviet issue, should we admit alexander to the white house . Should we meet with him . Kissinger was opposed to might mess up relations. Cheney quietly sought to bring kissinger and sought to admit to the white house. So, he was taken in a sense a more hawkish and antisoviet boot view than the white house. When he was in the Ford White House he supported one of fords ventures which was the panama canal treaty. In the next year as a freshman, as he is running for congress, he opposes the treaty. So he doesnt treat what he is doing in the white house as white house chief of staff as his own deep beliefs. He is a hired gun rated and actually when this carries forward in the george hw Bush Administration, when he is secretary of defense he does work well with bush senior, baker, scowcroft, but he is also more conservative on the issues. So, there is country at ukraine cheney was the precise opposite of donald trump, the issue was do we push for the breakup of the soviet union, or do we hold closely to gorbachev and not try to push them on the soviet republics they would stick with gorbachev and cheney was at the pentagon and the words of of his aides, the breakup of the soviet union was devoutly to be wished. He was more antisoviet than the bush white house. So once again, you see cheney there is a view of himself, his own views and then there is hired gun, ultimately i have got to sign onto the policy of the guy im working for. And what happens finally in the george w. Bush administration is cheney has now risen to a level where he is not hired gun anymore. In fact, his position as Vice President he is being encouraged to guide the new president who is unschooled in policy and to help him run the white house. He is not a hired gun, he is supposed to be the tutor and effectively in charge. Now, the other reason we think cheney would get the idea cheney has changed is our preoccupation with style over substance. Style over issues. China chaneys style, cheney has as you all remember the deep voice. I call it a voice that is almost seductive to ceos. Everything is under control. Everything is taken care of. We have weighed all the possibilities and this is the best option. As we learned finally in 2003 and on, that was not true. But it was something he managed to pull off for a long time. And so, he became a favorite of the columnists. And i mean nice, moderate, serious columnists but david broder went to cheney over and over again for wisdom and cheney would give him the deep voice answer and on the other hand, so, he wasnt lets put it this way, lets compare him to newt gingrich. The two entered congress the same year, gingrich was a screamer, cheney was not a screamer. But, they had their voting records were very much the same. And actually cheney got so frustrated, we think that someone with a deep voice, we sound so reasonable it must be moderate, cheney actually instructed one of his aides on the hill, will you call the Washington Post and stop calling me a moderate. Im a conservative. I have a