So that when i go into the second paragraph where im like what if we took this identity apart, those people would not sort of, have a different history or body. But it would be a different relationship to identity. I think as a consequence, we have a more humane relationship to each other. When i got leader into the first paragraph when im saying an individual can be a heaven. Certainly, both someone who was raised by a white man or as someone who thinks of so many figures like, take for example, john brown. Who i think are some of the most precious people in the world. Its important to me to not have a formulation that removes them. So thats what i was thinking. One more question before we move on to some of your other books. Mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yeah. Its a sentence my mother said to me. I think about it in a number of different ways. People talk about, in some ways that are difficult and maybe not a really hopeful about the challenges that black boys face in this world whether its mass incarceration or attendance rates and employment all those things. I think about it differently. I think about the simultaneity of wanting to raise my children who are identified as black boys. That in a way that doesnt limit their imaginations, their sense of possibility. That allows them to understand the facts of racial inequality. That thinks them from thinking they are superior to other people. But also that keeps them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in a society that values those things highly. Even though those things are more elusive for blackman to attain. A society that values that. Part of the task is raising them, for me, to not tell you that. To value their characters and sensitivity and complexity. I loved it. I learned so much. And every day i was being nurtured by all of these generations of people that came before me. And helped me understand the world. We want to play a little bit of music and video from 1999. That of course is jesse norman singing at the rosa parks congressional Gold Medal Ceremony in 1999. What is that song . That song is lift every voice and sing. The song that was known as the Negro National anthem after the 1970s. Its a song i describe as black americas most precious song. Was in alabama woman and losing credibly moving. You published a biography of the song. May we ever stand. Yes, they are the author and composer. They were brothers. Who were born in jacksonville florida. Back in the day, they were called race men. People who thought every achievement they had as being in service of the race. Johnson became the first secretarygeneral of the naacp. The first black man that made it through the bar in florida. One of the signature accomplishments was the composition of the song. They were firstgeneration freemen. Born in 1870s . Yes. Well, their mothers family hadnt been enslaved. They were bahamian and their fathers, have been enslaved in virginia. But yes, they were of that generation that emerged from slavery with all of those hopes and dreams and aspirations that were so quickly dashed with the end of reconstruction. What was the [indiscernible] what was extraordinary is that the song caught on like wildfire. It was almost immediately embraced as an anthem of black america. The United States did not have a National Anthem at this moment. Even so early on, people were referring to it as an anthem. It was a big deal. The johnson brothers were educators at the time of the composition. They left florida and moved to new york to work as songwriters. In part, because there had been a terrible fire in the city. So they actually werent there in florida as the song caught on. Black club women recirculated. They printed it. It began to be printed in the back of hymnals. It was sort of an anthem of the communitys making. They didnt intend it necessarily as an anthem, but black communities through the south said this is our anthem. If we continue playing that video, we would have seen then president clinton. Who knows all three verses. It may be his distinction. I think it was the only president. From your book, may we forever stand, hiphop uttered its farewell to the black National Anthem. Where are you going here . One of the things, and i talk about this in my book, theres something that happens in the 70s and 80s, which is a transformation both of some norms and black social and political life to do with the kind of Civic Engagement and associational life. Also being connected to the industrialization. And theres a piece, i quote the reverend Joseph Lowery where he said, may he rest in peace. That black people are the moral conscience of the nation. Hiphops refusal of that position. It is bold. Its not formal. Its both profane and inconsistent and unwilling to perform a particular a reveling in the outlaw. Which is commonplace in american culture. But its a different kind of public presents for africanamericans. That the party was significant. What i also talk about is the song keeps coming back. There have been. Moments where it seemed like it would peter out completely. It keeps coming back. Even though the kind of institutions and communities in which it was sung on a weekly or daily basis dont exist in the same way in black communities. Can you draw a direct line from blanks to hues to Biggie Smalls . Absolutely. In so many ways, both of them took the beauty of vernacular language and they crafted it to tell stories that were pointed, that often had a political content. And resonated deeply or were pleasurable to engage with. They are different kinds of political subjects. Langston hughes was very overtly an activist and organizer. But their relationship to black language both in the u. S. And throughout the diaspora and their desire to understand that as their foundation for the foundation of art. Absolutely directly connected. [indiscernible] part of what i talk about in the book is of course the process by which it became the most popular form of music in the country and had an audience that expanded beyond its initial core audience. But there is something i talked about that is something prophetic about it. Because there was from the very beginning, and exposition and and elucidation of what postindustrial life in the United States was like. And in all of its complexity. Its not just this, its not an encomium to the hood. Hiphop is not. Its the next formation of it. You use the term mc. What does that mean . Its the word for rapper and hiphop. It originally comes from master of ceremonies. Many spell it, emcee. Almost like a title. Mcs are rappers. Hiphops way of describing that role. Interesting to see what made an mc, good. Whether its a reduction of history or moment and communities but what did the art consist of . I was doing sort of a literary analysis. From your book, profits of the hood. If you Start Construction of blackness in opposition to whiteness in which blackness is demonized, has become part of the art forms consciousness. I should say and before i go into this, hiphop has changed a great deal since 2004. Although i think there are aspects of the book that still describe the form at present. Two park took the idea of thug life. The criminalization of black people. The sense that the very long of american stereotyping of black people both prone to criminality and excess and gangsters and volumes. Hiphop has engaged that satirically. Critically. Played into it. Has really sort of play with that social reality through ra. Lets hear from our viewers as we continue to talk about books. Charlie. You are on booktv. Im a progressive liberal. Ive seen the world is very complex and politics is a complex situation. I dont support black nationalism because thats just as bad as white nationalism. And its feeding fascism. Trumps days. Theres good and bad in all groups. Black people are just people. Theyre not inferior and are not superior. Black nationalism is just as long as whitenationalism and i can understand why ms. Perry is supporting black nationalism. Im not a black nationalist. I am far left. Nationalism takes on many different faces. There are certainly conservative brands of black nationalism. That politically, are actually quite aligned in many ways to political conservatism. If we take an organization like the nation of islam which is clinically quite conservative but advocates black nationalism and theres the version of blacknationalism you see in an organization like the black panther party. Which are about revolutionary socialism. Third world politics, anticolonialism. That saw themselves as identified and aligned with colonized people across the world historically. So i should say that the single term actually doesnt mean much without the larger context. But i will say this, i disagree with the caller that they are equivalent. People trying to find a way of a sense of control and autonomy over communities that they live in. After a long history of colonialism and enslavement and domination is not the same as celebrating the history of colonialism and enslavement and domination. But thats not a designation i would subscribe to. You say you are far left. What does that mean . I identify as both someone who believes in democracy and a socialist. Because i believe im against economic exploitation. Safe and clean water for schools. A living wage. Healthcare. Living in this extraordinarily wealthy children red country, we should have children that are poor. We should have People Living on the street. I dont believe the narrative of the consequences of economic vulnerability are just the consequences and we should be okay with them. I dont think thats a decent way to organize society and i dont think people are poor because they are deficient. They are poor because they are exploited or have a lack of opportunity. So thats what i believe. In as much as i write and think about race, its never separate from the larger questions of the distribution of suffering in our society. Its an example of how the society has been organized in a way to distribute suffering an opportunity. My objective is not for black people to become those who dominate. Thats not the idea for me. The idea is to become free of domination. To have a real robust, thorough democracy which is only possible if you have a decent quality of life for all people in a society. This is booktv on cspan2 showing highlights from our in depth series. Joined us to talk about them. You suggest that Justice Brett kavanaugh should read your new book. Why is that . I think is probably one of the most balanced books at abortions rights and womens reproductive rights. I worked really hard to make it balanced. I think it would allow him to see other peoples points of view with compassion and empathy and perhaps protective role versus wade a little longer. You say all points are represented in this book. How so . The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights facility in mississippi. In my book, a gunman comes in with a grudge and start shooting. He kills patients and hostages and patient employees and he takes the rest hostage. One of the people he takes hostage is the 15yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside. The people in the clinic are a wide range of people who have all been brought there at this one moment. They all believe Different Things about reproductive rights. You will see individuals who are prochoice and prolife. All of their points of view are easily and accurately represented. How do you storyboard a complex story like them. All types of connections and things going on. Theres another little twist to this book. Its told in reverse. The first thing you see is the standoff between the gunman and the Hostage Negotiator. Every chapter goes back an hour in time until at the end of the book, what you learn is what brought these Diverse People to the clinic at that moment. That was much harder than i anticipated it to being. I wound up writing a 48 page outline. Because i had to write it chronologically in reverse. But i also have to follow the storylines of 10 characters. Most of mine are about three pages long. I know my characters. I know the twist. Because i want to make sure i leave a paper trail. In this case, there was so much going on in it was so complex that i needed to map it out. The real magic was not in outlining, but in the editing. I took little postit flags and i marked the book by character. Then i edited in reverse 10 different times following each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then i edited entirely going forward. How much time did you spend in jackson, mississippi . I spent about a week working in particular with a man named willie parker. Hes an africanamerican Abortion Provider who is also a devout christian and says he performs abortions not in spite of his religion but because of it. He heard a sermon about the Good Samaritan and thought who will provide for these women if not mean. Now he goes all over the United States. 2526 bestselling books. [indiscernible] i always get cover input. They say what do you think of it. That was not the original cover for a spark of light. The original one looked like small great things. Our amazing art director came back with that and that really caught my eye. Speaking of small, great things. What does that represent . When i look at that cover, i think of those plateaus of color chips that artists use. If you look at the covers, there are spots where color is missing. Where there is something not quite right. Its about racism in america and metaphorically to me, that was such a beautiful illustration of what i was trying to talk about. Okay. Again, are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. An africanamerican nurse with 25 years of experience in the labor delivery ward. Helped deliver a baby and in the aftermath, the babys father said didnt want to look like him and pushed up his sleeve to reveal a swastika tattoo. A bunch of personnel banded together, they sued. I hope she got a great payout but it made me wonder what if i pushed that envelope a little. I wouldve as a result, she wound up being brought up on charges of murder. What if she was defended by a white public defender. What if i could tell her story in the voice her voice and the voice of the public defender. To me, small great things is for white people. Its meant to say open rise a little wider. Its a high order for white people to point to themselves and say the same thing. Yet race is about prejudice plus power. If you are white in america, you hold all the power. Although its easier for us to see the headwinds of racism and to know if youre a person of color, your light might be harder. Its difficult for white people to recognize the tailwinds and that there are unearned benefits that come to us because we are born like this. That is something that is on white people to learn and to fix. That is the audience i was hoping for. You for in 26 books i believe it is. Any one of them a bestseller . Not by any means. I was a slow growth girl. I didnt have that overnight oprah moment. I started off very humbly. My first book had 3500 copies printed. That was it. What happened was people who read my book told their friends, you should read this and they told friends and it grew very organically. It wasnt really until, i think it was after my sisters keeper. The Second Glance that first got onto the bestseller list by itself. Without a push. How quickly was my sisters keeper optioned for the movie . It wasnt optioned quickly at all. It took a while. And it was not a fun experience. [laughter] why not . Is the movie accurate to the book . You havent seen the movie. Dont. When that book was optioned, i said the only thing that was important to me was that they keep bending. Because it has a monstrous twist at the end. I know that sold the book. People who said, i cant tell you what happened, just read it so we can talk about it. They went to higher and asked me if i would talk to him and i said yes. Im not going to change the ending and if it does, i will tell you myself. I worked with him for a year and a happy he would call me and ask questions about character. I saw a script that looked like the book. Then i got an email from a fan from a casting agency and said did you know they change the ending of the movie . I called nick at home and he wouldnt take my call that i went to the sets and he threw me off the set. I went to and i said youre going to lose money because i have eager fans and they will not want to see this movie. Instead, we know what we are doing. Nick made the notebook for us. Sure enough, they lost money on the film. My fans were very upset. Ultimately, the great irony is that money is what speaks in hollywood. Now ive had more Creative Control on future projects. Did you have any Creative Control once you optioned it. Most writers do not. Usually what hollywood will do is you want Creative Control, we dont need that. Thank you very much. Well go to an author that will take the money and run. Its a little like putting a baby up for adoption. Youre not allowed to call every day and say, did you feed her breakfast. Small great things has been optioned. What we know is that ambling entertainment which is Steven Spielbergs company. And viola davis have been attached. When i read ruth jefferson, i cant help but see viola davis. When we get into the other books and people get into the other books. Before we get to the first call, have your books gone more topical over the years. I try to look at the trajectory of my career. I think its bands where my brain is at any given time. My first book was about mothers and daughters but i was closer in age to the daughters that i was to the mother. Then i had a baby. Right before my first book was published. My second book was about motherhood. And how incredibly difficult it is because it really shocked me how hard it was. Then i got into marriage and relationships and whether they are 5050. Then i had all my kids and i have a wide span of years how many children . Three. All of the terrible things that can happen to your kids from sexual abuse to kidnapping and all these things. Then my kids grew up and they got to a point where they were selfsufficient. I think i began to take a step back and look at bigger issues. That makes me sit up at night and worry. The nature of good and evil. Things like racism in small great things. What it means to grieve and lose someone. In my sisters keeper,