As a letter to her son. Here is a portion of that program. People here when you say i wonder if i can be irredeemable they hear all white people and they hear them as individuals as opposed to whiteness for the identity. And with the second paragraph so they dont have a different history or a body but a different relationship to identity. So potentially as a consequence a more humane relationship to each other. So what i got to saying a person or individual so certainly like a white man or someone who thinks of those figures i take for example john brown are some of the most precious people in the world. Its important to me not to have a formulation and this is a struggle i am engaged in. One more question before we move on to your other book books, mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yes. My mother said to me and i think about it a number of different ways and one is of course all the risk as people talk incessantly that it is difficult and not necessarily helpful about the challenges that they face in the world whether an act of incarceration nor the attendance rates. I think about it differently a lot of those things are true of wanting to raise my children who identify as black boys that in a way that does not do you limit their imagination or sense of possibility and allows them to understand the facts of racial inequality that keeps him from thinking they are superior to people because they are relatively privileged to other people generally and also black people but also to keep them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in the society that values those highly. So those are more elusive for black men for a society that values that. That is part of the task a is raising them, for me and i value that like i value their characters and sensitivity and complexity from the walk of life that they come from. So the lessons of what it means to be a man across the board impales things that are not so good and then the lessons of what blackness is unless you counter or both of those and to give them a much greater capacity to be fully human. Host in the last 19 minutes everything we have talked about are things that you teach in part at princeton . Not really that is a departure for me. It is the spirit with which i teach. Of course i have but but you have much more of a fact. But i do think of that as a calling so it is important to bring to that license of values and humanity and justice and love that is to be dispassionate. How do you get your degree from harvard at the same time . Unwisely. [laughter] when i graduated from college at 21 years old and just completely in love with life and the mind that i wanted to do everything i did graduate school of law school i took my orals and then it was at a frenzied pace but it was beautiful and amazing for me. I liked it. I learned so much and every day i was being nurtured all these generations of people that have come before me. We want to play a little bit of music and little bit of video from 1999. Host of course this is at the roosevelt congressional Gold Medal Ceremony in 1989. What is that song . Lift every voice the song that was known as the National Anthem and then the black national and the after the 1970s and it is the song that i describe as black americas most precious song. And that clip of rosa parks and jesse norman that is recently departed. Host you have a biography of the song. The author and the composer they were brothers board in Jacksonville Florida and of course back in the day they were called those that every achievement and then johnson became the first secretary general of the naacp and it is extraordinary but the signature accomplishments. And firstgeneration freemen . Born in the 18 seventies . Yes. The family was born in virginia but yes they were of that generation that emerged from slavery with the hopes and dreams and aspirations that were so quickly dashed at the end of reconstruction. What was the reception in 1900 . It is extraordinary that it caught on like wildfire it was immediately embraced as the anthem of black america and what i try to tell in the book the United States is not have a National Anthem at this point so people were referring to it as an anthem the johnson brothers were both educated at the time and left florida and went back to go to florida and part because there was a terrible fire in the city so as a song caught on across the schoolchildren the black women circulated it it is printed in the back of the hymnals so it is describe it as an anthem and they did not intend it that way but they said this is our anthem. Had we continue playing we would see president clinton singing. Yes. That is a distinction he may be the only us president who knew the three versus. Host may your book may we forever stand hiphop under the farewell. So one of the things that we talk about this in my first book is there is something that happened in the seventies and eighties a transformation with a black social and political life to do with that Civic Engagement connected to the deindustrialization and there was a piece where he said may he rest in peace that hiphop is the refusal of that position it is bold it is not formal and unwilling to perform with that reveling that is commonplace in culture but it is at presents for africanamericans so that departure that we talk about was at the song keeps coming back so there are various moments it just felt like it would peter out completely but it keeps coming back. Even though the kind of institutions and communities from a daily basis dont exist in the same way but communities. Host can you draw a direct line from langston to Biggie Smalls . Absolutely. And so many ways both of them took the beauty of the vernacular language and then to tell stories that often had a political content. And resonated deeply they are different kinds of political subjects like as an organizer but the relationship to black language throughout the diaspora and to understand that as a foundation for the production that is absolutely directly connected. Host part of lad i talk about in the book of course is the practice by which the most popular form of music and to be extent expanded by the core audience but there is something that i talk about from the very beginning of what post industrial life and what that was like in the United States. In all of its complexity. Is not cecconi into the could its the exploration. Host you use the term and see what does that mean . It is the word for wrapper that is more organic to hiphop it actually comes from master of ceremonies but to make it phonetic emc ee that there is a relationship between the wrapper and the dj and the producer was really important. It is a title absolutely. It is internal to hiphop to describe the role. Im interested really and what makes the mc good. That just this moment in history but so that became important. Host from profits of the hood the construction of blackness in which that is demonized has become part of the art forms conscience. Right. And i should say hiphop has changed a great deal from 2004 there are some aspects that are still described at present. But there is a wert on a over to play of thugs if you know tupac embrace the idea of thug life. Of the criminalization of black people with the sense of a very long history of america stereotyping. I spoke from criminality and access and gangsters and hiphop has engaged that satiricall satirically, critically , played into but with that social reality. Host lets hear from our viewers as we talk about your books. Roslyn heights new york. Caller hello. I have fought races of my life but i have grown and seen that the world is a complex situation. I dont support black nationalism i think is just as bad as White Nationalism and with the fascism in a country with trumps face that is good and bad in all groups black people are not inferior or superior and black nationalism is just as wrong as White Nationalism i cannot understand why she talks about that. I am not a black nationalist. Im far left. Nationalism takes on many different faces. There are conservative branches but politically i am quite aligned many ways to political conservativism. Even though White Conservative advocates black nationalism that you would see it in and organization like the black Panther Party or the Student National coordinating committee or with the third world politics, anti colonialism that identify and align with colonized people. So the single term doesnt mean much without the larger context. But i dont disagree with the color that they are equivalent because certainly people trying to find a way to building a sense of control and autonomy over the communities that they live in has a long history of colonialism and domination. That is not the same as celebrating the history of the slavery and domination. That is not the designation i waited of scribe to. You say you are far left . I identify as someone who believes in a democracy is an intellectual because i am against economic exploitation and everybody should have access to faith, environment, clean water, safe schools, minimum wage, healthcare. I believe in this extraordinary wealthy country and we should not have children who are poor. People should not be living on the street. I dont think the narrative of the consequences of economic vulnerability are just consequences and we should be okay. Thats not a decent way to organize society. I dont believe people are poor because they are deficient but they are exploited or a lack of opportunity. So the question is much as i write and think about race it is not separate from the distribution of suffering in our society. So an example of how it has been organized to opportunity unjustly but i want to be those that dominate and then to have a robust democracy that is only possible with the quality of life for everybody in society host you suggest Justice Kavanaugh should read your newest book spark of light . Is probably one of the most balanced of abortion rights and reproductive rights that i have found i work really hard to make it balanced just with the other peoples points of view with compassion and empathy could protect roe v wade a little longer. The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights clinic in mississippi the state that only has one clinic left in america because over 280 laws at the state level chipping away at reproductive rights since 2012 and in my book the government comes in he kills hostages and he takes the rest hostage and one of the people he takes hostages a 15 yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside and they all believe very Different Things about you want reproductive rights individuals are prolife and all of their points of view are accurately represented. How do you storyboard a complex story like that with all those connections . The it is another question because theres another twist to the book is different from the others that is told in reverse. The very first thing is you see as the standoff between the standoff everything goes back one hour in time until the very end of the book where you learn all of these very Diverse People at the clinic at that moment and that was much harder than i anticipated i wrote a 48 page outline because i had to write it chronologically in reverse but i also had to follow the storylines of ten very diverse characters. Most of mine are three pages long i know my characters and the plot because i want to make sure leave a paper trail but there was so much going on and it is so complex that the real magic to me is not the outlining but the editing right edited the book i took postit flags and marked up the whole book by character and then edited in reverse ten different times following each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then i edited entirely going forward. How much time did you spend in jackson mississippi . As midweek between jackson and alabama working with a man who really is an africanamerican Abortion Provider who also identified as a devout christian and says he performs abortions and not in spite of his religion but because of it he heard about the Good Samaritan about who will provide for these women if not me . He went and got trained in all goes all over the United States to the most underserved areas for those who women that needed the most invited me to come shadow him. Then you can determine the title and the cover . They normally show me a cover i will tell them if i like it or dont i love the cover small great things fight it with them to confuse it. So that really caught my eye and i loved it. What does the cover represent . When i look at the cover i look at the pantone squares and if you look at the covers there is spots where color is missing as something isnt not quite right about the color. There is something absent and that is such a beautiful illustration of what i was trying to talk about. Are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. So that is based off a reallife incident in fort michigan an africanamerican nurse 25 Years Experience in the delivery ward and in the aftermath the babies father said he doesnt want her or anyone that looks like her to touch his kid push up the sleeves and there was a swastika tattoo because they were in the hospital they put a postit note no africanamerican can touch the baby they bandaid to gather and they soon i hope they got a great payout but made me think what if something went wrong and as a result she was brought up on charges of murder and what if she was defended by a white public defender that would never be considered to be a racist and what if i could tell it in her voice of the do public defender that to me small great things is for white people and is meant to say open your eyes a little wider with easy to say thats our races with a white supremacist its harder to look at themselves and say the same thing that yet race is about power you hold all the power although is easier for us to see the headwinds of racism you know your life may be a little harder if you are person of color but the fact there are unearned benefits that come to us because of that and that is something for white people to learn and to fix ultimately thats why wrote the book that the audience i was hoping for. Host you ever 1026 books is everyone a bestseller . No. Not by any means. I did not have that overnight oprah moment. I started off very humble my first had 3500 copies. Thats it. I think what happened people read my books told their friends and they told friends and it grew very organically and really not until i think it was after my sisters keeper that got onto the bestseller list by itself. Host how quickly was my sisters keeper optioned . Not quickly at all. It took a while. It was not a pleasant experience. [laughter] is it true . You have not seen the movie . Dont. And that book was optioned i said the only thing that is important to me is the end it does have a monstrous twist and i ultimately people who have said i cant tell you what happens just read it so we can talk about it. In fact that is the producer who optioned the book had gotten it. So they asked me if i would talk and i said the ending is really important. He said i will not change the ending i will tell you i will tell you myself. I worked with him for a year and a half he would call me up and ask questions about characters i saw a script that looked like the book and then i got an email from a fan who worked at a casting agency did you know they change the ending of the movie . I call them at home he would not take my call they threw me off the senate and he said he will lose money because i have pretty eager and ardent fans who are rock stars they will not want to see this movie. He said we know we are doing. And sure enough they lost money on the film the fans are very upset. Ultimately the great irony is that money speaks in hollywood said he will lose money so now because of that experience i have more Creative Control of future products. Host did you have Creative Control want you optioned out . No. Most writers do not if you have Creative Control thats the anomaly because normally hollywood like you want Creative Control we dont need that thank you very much we will go to another author who will take the money and run the site giving the baby up for adoption you try to make the educated choice and doing the best you can but you dont want to call everyday and they did you feed her breakfast. Small great things has been optioned. I hope we have a little bit more. We will see. It is early days but ample and entertainment optioned it and i cannot think of better casting so i am delighted so far. Host when a read jefferson. She is incredibly and talented actress. Host we will talk about other books that jody has written but have your books, topical over the years . Its funny. I try to look at the trajectory of my career and i actually think it shows where my brain is at any given time if you look at the first book it was about mothers and daughters i was closer in age to them other than the daughter. Then i the daughter than the mother then i got married and had a baby right before the first book was published the second book was about motherhood and incredibly difficult it is and that really shocked me but then i got into the marriage and relationships and then i had all my kids with a wide span of years so all my books while the terrifying things that can happen to your kids from sexual abuse to illness to kidnapping and suicide and all these things and then they grew up and got to a point where then i began to take a step back to i could see the bigger issues that make me set up at night and worry like the nature of good and evil like the storyteller and small great things what it means to grieve and lose someone and need time and reproductive rights. Host in my sisters keeper as the mother of the child and surgeries. Right that grew out of two different places. It was about the eugenics project in america which very few people know about we actually model the program that hitler used for his final solution. So one of the things i learned is that the original American Eugenics Society when they folded the group that check over was the human genome project thats almost too close for comfort and i happen to read when i was researching eugenics a story tha