Education and accomplish history professor specializing in early us history hes held the Thomas Jefferson chair in American History at the university for the past five years and before that he taught at the university of california and at boston university. He has written eight previous books on topics ranging from the colonial period to the war of 1812 and beyond two of his works have won a Pulitzer Prize in history in 1996 and William Cooperstown over the politician William Cooper and the novelist james cooper and in 2014 he wrote about slavery in virginia during the war of 1812 and the contradictions of early Virginia Society. Thomas jeffersons education he turned his attention to the establishment of the university of virginia with jefferson of course regarded the university diaz a signature achievement and alan god interested as you see a book on the subject seeing correspondence with the efforts to fund the new school it tend to deal with various ways the American Revolution impacted society and politics in the early years of our country the story of jeffersons attempts at educational reform to the founding of the university of virginia certainly is the focus. But also has particular relevance today in the context of current Reform Efforts and controversies of structures and goals and funding things didnt quite turn out as jefferson had hoped in the university of virginia to establish the democratized system of education to cultivate a more enlightened group of future leaders to reject slavery and usher into the egalitarian society. That mentally the sons of wealthy families many of them prove to be unruly and abusive students. Far from changing virginia from reforms the graduates were deeply conservative and holding proslavery views going on to serve in the confederate in the civil war. All in all he presents a compelling case of jeffersons noble intentions to fall short through Virginia Society at the time that refreshingly adds real substance to the literature on jefferson it is called the narrative that has crucial insight into jeffersons thinking as he pursued his vision for what he hoped would be a Better Future please join me to welcome alan taylor. [applause] that was such a good introduction i have almost nothing to add. [laughter] thank you to brad and elizabeth and cody for their help and for all of you for turning out i want to make clear at the start i do Like University of virginia but i dont think i would have liked in the 18 twenties. It didnt get off to the start Thomas Jefferson had hoped for so in the book i have written i am trying to address three questions, why is it the state of virginia suddenly decides to invest in Public Education in the 18 teens . Because this was a complete new development that had a spent anything up until that point so when it comes to invest in Public Education why did they choose just to build the university and not say a Primary School system . That would have benefited many more people. Why do they choose a relatively Small University that was very expensive and educate only the sons of the wealthiest families . And third, why did it go so badly . The story is set in virginia but has National Significance why . Jefferson is involved in is the most important figure in washington but then the most influential figure in the United States and his lifetime other than washington 17 forties through 18 twenties. Second virginia is the largest and richest and most powerful state in the union at that time. The largest population more wealth just about all the president s except for john adams from virginia with the longest congressional delegation virginia is sold they are the leading element and it turns out they are right. When that starts to shift in the 18 teens they become very upset why they establish the university of virginia and why they do. Virginia is also home to half of the enslaved people in the country in the state of virginia. 40 percent of the population is held in slavery. It is a system not marginal to the state but central to the economy, society, and culture and affects every dimension of life including what is possible in terms of education reform. Now jefferson is a key person and this is part of the education jefferson receives. What does he learn and value . What was he like as a student . Primarily its about what part of education does he think young men of the next generation receive . And he pays a little bit of attention to women but the primary focus is young white men those it will be the leaders of the next generation. He focuses on them for a couple of reasons. He does want to change society he wants to become a more Democratic Society for white men. He also wants to end slavery but he wants to end it in a peculiar way. His plan and he lays it out several times is always linked to the forced deportation of read blacks. He could never imagine a virginia where whites and blacks can live as equals and his neighbors. That is the great flaw. It is not unique to jefferson this is the common thinking of the relatively liberal people in virginia of that generation that black and whites cannot live together in safety in which both are free. And that is the great flaw in his thinking. But not unique to jefferson. So the first letter we have is june 1760 a young man, 17 years old and is about education writing to the executors of his fathers estate to control his money his inheritance because he is not 21 yet. And he is asking them to free up funds so he could go to the one college that then existed in virginia. The only place you can go for Higher Education in virginia in the late colonial period. You could go off to princeton like James Madison but if you go in virginia will you marry is your only option. There are no universities to the south to go to. Until after the revolution. As long as they stay on the mountain which would later be monticello he lives on a plantation. As long as they stay on the mountain my time is inevitable from companies coming here to detain me from school his social life is too rich if he stays there and hes trying to justify to the executor he will learn more if he goes away to school. He is an unusual young man the first and probably the last two claim he will party less if he goes off to college. It turns out he does get into some hijinks but in the end he is about the most studious person to ever go to the college of william and mary. Eighteen oh eight looking back he is writing to her grandson to the grandsons education and he says he credits education from saving him. And if he had not been saved then he would become worthless to society so this is the mixed feelings or virginians he thinks of them as gregariou gregarious, sociable, generous , not intellectual. Again he talks about the free elite class of gentlemen who prided themselves there is plenty of hard workers in virginia but they are not the ones doing it. They are the beneficiaries. So jefferson really wanted to change virginia to be disciplined and hardworkin hardworking, cosmopolitan benefiting from education. But this is one of the keys to jefferson he does not want to confront them he has a very thin skin he doesnt like contention. His favorite philosopher preaches moderation and serenity to have a life as little education as possible. So jefferson is complex very able and brilliant and capable to be a very close critic of slavery but he doesnt want contention for him to have the changes that he wants. That is for the next generation. So jefferson is important they must be prepared to do the things he was not able to achieve which is a more Democratic Society and also that has lightened itself by also getting rid of black people. That is not entirely admirable but yet by virginia standards of that time, he is considered a dangerous radical by many virginians who do know the full range of his thinking. Jefferson and is famous for a plan he put out 1779 for an Education System Primary Schools now we call them high schools or academies. Primary schools what have been for girls and boys. Academies just adolescent boys. The capstone the third level is university. One university. He thought william and mary to reform but then he thought that was hopeless it was doomed. He would like to help kill it. And would like to create a new university in piedmont preferably to see it from the top of monticello. And he is a very good politician and has very powerful friends and they end up making it happen the key moment comes 1817 through 1818 when the state and the windfall money from the federal government but its not enough for jeffersons full system for all three tiers another politician says lets build a Primary School system first and jeffersons is no bill the university first. Theres a limited amount of money i want to spend it on the university. So this clashes with our usual thinking to be this democratic figure and in many ways he is but it goes to the peculiarities of a man who wants to democratize but he wants the next generation to do it so he thinks the way you get there is not by uplifting the entire population but by educating the future leaders from the elite families and they will do it. You can probably imagine what will go wrong in that scenario. Also jefferson is getting to be elderly when he wants to see this before he dies and it is reasonable to think if you build one university to educate 200 young men faster than you can set up a whole Education System with fewer complications plus jefferson liked architecture. He will not design a lot of one room schoolhouse as he would much rather design a neoclassical campus for a university he thinks by designing that architecture he could reengineer young men to be the man that will do the good deeds he wants the next generation to do the problem is the young men that show up our fox hunters and the card players and the horse racers and they invent conditions by the society they have grown up in which says if you are the future masters of plantations , you must worry about your honor and make a show of your ability to practice leisure and generosity to prove you are not a moneygrubbing yankee or someone that would actually have to work or get your hands dirty and certainly you are not enslaved. So this class altogether no fellowships or scholarships at the university it is the most expensive institute for education in the United States only people that can afford it or those coming from the plantations. It turns out this Educational Institution is not capable of transforming them the way jefferson thought it would. So this is about his noble intentions in most ways, not always but the deportation of africanamericans is the least attractive element of his scheme but how that fall short and in part because white he is able to pitch this to the virginians they are nervous because they look essences returns to find out is not the largest anymore and its not the richest and fearful it will not be the most politically powerful because it is slipping relative to new york and pennsylvania and they are nervous ohio is coming up very fast. So the population the wealth is shifting to the north so now they are not the most powerful state so they persuade themselves why they will invest in part of his plan is that if they can educate their young men to be the future congressman than they can win arguments in congress and fend off yankee influence. So jefferson has created a university in partnership with other leaders in virginia with two contradictory emissions which is jeffersons preferred Mission Educate from within but also to fend off yankee influences including anti slavery activist so that when virginia reforms its institutions it will do so on its own terms at another date in the future so it turns out these young men from the plantations are much more prepared for the Second Mission and to preserve in a conservative way the virginia they have grown up in rather than build his vision to transform into Something Else so that is what the book is about. Thank you im happy to take any questions. [applause] throughout your talk i heard you say he was waiting for the next generation to take over was that clearly stated or was that something he looked back on to say i didnt look at my generation but the next generation . He clearly says when he is 43 years old. Is there any indication he didnt want to change the current . He is thinskinned and love serenity so when he is a young legislator he wants to introduce a piece of legislation and in a very small way will improve the conditions. Ghost one the most senior and respected legislatures and says present this and he gets attacked by all other legislators. We dont talk about that if we Start Talking about it then enslaved people gets ideas for setting up a dynamic to lead to their freedom and then they will rise up in rebellion to accelerate the day so they shut it down so he writes about this to what an experience to see all these people jefferson never ever wants to take an unpopular stance. So that leads to another question about jefferson. My very shallow understanding of history of the revolution is that he was quite effective to get what he wanted and im surprised to hear that he was thinskinned because my interpretation or understanding is that he wasnt that thinskinned is especially with all the revolutionaries it seems like he was pushing pretty hard for what he wanted. Jefferson is a very good politician he figures out what the majority of leaders around him want. And how he can nudge them just a bit in the direction he wants to go but he also knows he cannot push them too far. Because he doesnt like contention and he says in his letters that criticism or contention is ten times more painful than any praise that is positive for him so somebody like Alexander Hamilton thinks of jefferson as a conniving backstabbing kind of guy to smile in your face but meanwhile working behind the scenes with other people to achieve political ends. Its natural somebody like hamilton and one will see it that way. He is in your face type of guy to say this is been very bold and clear about what he wants to do to confront other people who dont want to do it. That is an jefferson style. The city Council Voted as a holiday so what happened to virginia . So the last we had from virginia and one of the greatest nationwide politicians so during the summer i get my children to visit monticello and the university of virginia and i asked my older kids what do you want to learn . This is a quick question may be brought the. And i appreciate your help. And those are two very Big Questions i will take the second one first. And thats why the political influence has diminished over time. And virginia is a changing state right now because of the vibrant growing demographics. And with charlottesville it very much goes to the politics of the city council and also goes to the racial politics. And then to be marginalized with their sensitivities had not been considered by the city council. So this was that goes on in politics. Who was legitimate and who was not. And you can think of other examples. This is a long tradition of africanamericans feeling like this and their sensitivities have been ignored in the city but if i could finish im saying that i understand the sentiment behind it. So it plays out in the country they are rejecting jefferson and everything about him. I find it difficult to talk about the book with people in the press today. It was t thing ever because the declaration of independence, creator of democracy, separation of church and state, Louisiana Purchase. Its a pretty winning record and people just didnt talk about slavery. When i see people i mean people were running history and journalism and so forth. It just wasnt part of the story. We shift and then people are suddenly playing catch up and say wait a minute they are 40 of the people in virginia, jefferson is a slave holder, talking about all men are created equal and he owns all these people and thousand three more than a handful of them in contrast to George Washington who freed just about all the people that he had owned the. So whats going on here. Then again my position here is you swing to the other extreme and say its just purely evil and what im saying is we ought to be able to think about jefferson in all of this complexity is. We can think about the things we still admire like separation of church and state, seeking democracy, american independence, and then also acknowledged he couldnt free himself from slavery in the end. And just to say why is it somebody could be capable of these extraordinary accomplishments and still feel that he couldnt do more to change the society other than create the university and hope the next generation would make the changes that he couldnt so i would like us to think about him in this complicated way that we can think of is every question as a referendum on whether we like it or not. Then you probably wont like my question. Having read a lot about jefferson, one thing that sets him apart also was his arrogance and a desire to avoid confrontation that led to him arguably being kind of a backstabbing weasel certainly in his relationship with washington because they are very, very close to and the stuff that he circulated a that kind of separates him away from the other people like madison who also worked with washington decided jefferson because you are either with me or against me. I guess i never really understood that about the extent they operated because the famous quote from Martha Washington the famous painful days were when george tied into Thomas Jefferson came with a condolence call because she realized the relationship had completely broken down. It isnt really about his relationship with other leaders of the country so i dont go into that, and i understand what you are saying. Therethere is also times when r example jefferson tried to persuade washington to run for a third term which is a little jarring because again as you pointed out, hes working behind the scenes to plant some stories in the newspapers that made washington look bad. What really concerned jefferson is that washington was so close with hamilton and they were a close team in pursuing their vision of the country should be. But jefferson kept hoping he could somehow disconnect hamilton and washington and he hoped washington could become a passive father figure and jefferson could replace hamilton and his kind of a minister in the system and so he doesnt want watch washington deceased to be president because he wont be jefferson probably it will be john adams, which it was and he thought john adams is just more committed to this federalist vision of the country and would rather have washington, so it is very complicated but you are right jefferson is capable of doing things behind the scenes to his political competitors that dont look so good that therebuttheres a long traditie politics of the country of people doing similar things. A little bit of a followup to the question. You said jefferson didnt like contention that was a great politician and i will have a second question as well but what do you think about how that illustrates how great a politician he was, because the first question. Second in terms of the unruliness and the unseriousness of the students in the 1820s and how does that contrast to the northern universities that youve mentioned . Very good questions. First of all jefferson being a great politician. He manages to engineer an Opposition Party that comes to power in this place is a very formidable first party that essentially founded federalists. Thats a tough accomplishment he pulled it off and then he consolidated the power of his party and basically destroy the federalists so there is the accomplishment and then things like the Louisiana Purchase where he has to set aside his constitutional scruples and do something that isnt in the constitution. He was a constructionist of the constitution until it didnt serve his purpose at which point it becomes more of an accordion that it is a good accomplishment for the country and saved it from a crisis at a time. Then on the local level 300,000 doesnt sound like a lot of money now but to get out of the state of virginia for Higher Education is an extraordinary accomplishment because nobodys ever done that before and jefferson is very proud. He played a game of chicken with the state legislators which is they wanted him to open up one half of the buildings were built, just get it going and he said if i do tha that theyve bn fond of the other half of the building so im going to play chicken. And its all been there isnt another student coming in until it is done and he likely fulfilled that the rotunda wasnt completed at the time they opened the doors but he did pull this off and then he gave a kind of indiscreet interview not with a press member but a visitor that came to it describing how cleverly he manipulated the end of this guy that didnt know him very well jefferson is just livid about this and said i never did any of those things. Of course he had but he didnt want the light to be shown on his taking a kind of victory to her and explaining how he had done all of this and realize they have been indiscreet. Students everywhere. They are the worst in the south. And in the north it was princeton its mostly over food service which is terrible and they end up basically having food fights and riots over this. Theres other issues come up with that as the number one thing. In the south if young men try to show that nobody can control it and it is confronting faculty members from its stealing their horses, knocking down fences, hollering, just showing that you are in control instead of a key. Its much more violent. It this is true at the university of georgia, south carolina, north carolina, uva and the others were founded as older universities in the 80s and 90s and early as 19th century. He pointed out that jefferson made the choice of funding the University Rather than k12. That reminds me in the recent Years Development economists appearing asia and china to latin america have worried about these. It is a parallel story. The other question is its my impression that within a generation to colleges managed to come down quite a bit for the facultiefacultys and masters t supervisors in the 15th century the kids lived in boarding houses and there was no adult supervision and south what was the process by which the students were tamed . Its about th the church and ste relations in virginia. In the revolution through jefferson and madisons influence they destroy the church establishment. Colonial virginia levied the attacks on everybody to support the Anglican Church of later from the Episcopal Church and it is the highest single tax and they are in virginia receiving tech support and the ministers double as teaching schools. They are schools where jefferson goes to one of them. When the attacks is taken away the Anglican Ministry shrinks down to. And jefferson said in the 1820s education is worse shape now in part because of what jefferson had done but jefferson expected that when they destroyed the church and state establishment they would take the tax savings and invest it in Public Education and they decided not to do that but instead to give the tax relief to people. The question then becomes the Secular University no chapel, no professor of theology, purely secular. Nothing like this in the world at that time. A ververy important for jefferso do it that way. That starts to break down and there is an element of those active in politics that are trying to get control of the university away from jefferson and give it a more religious mission including a chaplain and a Church Service and prayers every day, presbyterian. That pushed becomes more powerful than the next generations over the next generation jefferson said something in their 20s at some point in the future every young man in america is going to be a unitarian. It turns out that isnt true but in the episcopal evangelicals. So what happens is the culture of the young gentleman evolves in part through the influence of their mothers into a more evangelical culture that promotes a kind of selfcontrol that means they are not just fox hunters and horse racers but people going to church in a new way and it is slow and starts to kick him in a serious way in the 1850s. If you look at the people that our graduates and activare grade confederacy, there are people who are pious christians of a certain sort who are also committed to the slavery. I have a question that is a bit offtopic but it relates to our relations today. I have five sons and told them all they should study math and chinese and they both ignored me. One was interviewed by the Financial Times of london and said what is the best advice you got and i totally ignored my dad. [laughter] up this goes to when i was growing up we didnt have these africanamerican studies and womens studies, and i thought why, who needs them. Im wondering what should i have told my sons to study and africanamerican studies, womens studies because i wanted to make this not a racial discussion and some of these other. I can see that it would have helped with Critical Thinking in the liberal arts but i still think you should have studied math and chinese i understand your point and this is a dilemma that we are in at the cost of Higher Education. We feel compelled to tell students to start specializing and to specialize in things that will make money sooner rather than later, entirely understandable because of the burden of families and students are faced with because of the Public Investment in education that has gone down. I understand your advice. Im never going to dismiss somebody that gives advice to people that have to cope with these burdens or the family that has to cope with it. I understand that entirely. I do wish and what i push for his yes absolutely more students should be studying math and chinese. But i still think there is a place to also have a minor city in history or literature or art or music and this will make them better and being businesspeople in the future if they have a range to their own intellect and capacity to investigate things along several different avenues is what im thinking. Be a math major and study chinese. But be an english minor as well would be my ideal for the education. [inaudible] i was interested in your discussion. Spin again to destroy william and mary while he did it. When you go to william and mary and they have the ambivalence on the other hand, the wellinformed know that he tried to do the school in. William and mary was in a bad way coming into the team is. There was violence between the students and the faculty and suffered from a and williamsburg was after the capital moved out and went to richmond so the leaders of the college wanted to say that moving to richmond and the allies block that move to say since theyve invited the legislature, why dont we take the money away from them and make them essentially a Williamsburg Academy in to get the money and use it for the uva. In the end that they dont succeed. It was killed at the time of the university of virginia was created. Do you have a description of an appendix that indicates the first classes of students and the families they came from because that would be fascinating. There is a guy that has written a dissertation on that so i would use his work to repeat what he did back then presumably virginia was still agrarian and what they have been practical to create a primary system of education everywhere . It seems he made the right choice in a way if you believe that its going to have this impact because of the bang for the buck. For the statewide primary system. Its a reasonable question because virginians have large farms of plantations. The population density in new england is twice what it is in virginia. Virginia included West Virginia for people to live more dispersed than new england. At that time until the 18 teams that had public primary education and he said it easy for them to do because you can walk to school. For a lot of them it is too far to walk and a lot of the virginians couldnt afford shoes. There is a lot of white poverty in virginia. With that said, people still want education and a system of what they called oldfield schools which were set up. And its hard to have comprehensive coverage because what they would need is a Critical Mass of those in the right ages that live reasonably close to sustain these schoolhouses and some years you have to have some good and. Still if there had been more money put into this to support the teachers, more of the schools would have existed because eventually right after the civil war when virginia isnt more urbanized they d do t up this School System so you are right that its difficult. But they could have done a lot more than they did. It could have been the primary education. You mentioned the presbyterian church. It isnt the central factor which you are right it is the honor code that saved it. Its part of this bigger cultural shift and its a very narrow. It doesnt keep you from going out and burning their roles on the lawn and disrupting the faculty but it is a step in the right direction and its part of this cultural shift that is influenced by evangelical christianity so yes it makes a difference, but it isnt the beall and endall that will stabilize the university. Like any kind of Popular History you want to boil things down to a simple explanation and not have a history professor told you exactly how complicated it is when youre giving a tour to people visiting were trying to explained the undergraduates why the university compound. I want to talk more about the scholarship that went into this book. I read somewhere in the introduction that he had come across some correspondence jefferson the associate and this is initially went through un. As the chief person that gets the ball past and funding its about the politics of the state of virginia and at that time they were very regional. There is piedmont anthis piedmon virginia and i was interested in these regional politics and how they play into the decisions of that kind of education. That was my starting point. I try to bring another characters who were not attended to the usual story. So Francis Gilmer is the guy that sent over to recruit most of the first faculty and he was considered to be the most brilliant young man essentially the only smart young me man and jefferson really relies on Francis Gilmer to get things done to create the university and expects him to be the wall professor which is the most important faculty position. I found these fascinating letters it turned out he didnt trust jefferson at all. He was an ultra conservative. This is the purpose of the university of virginia is to defend virginias way of life, period so turns out hes the profitable they will be in the next generation rather than jefferson. He is also pulling something over on jefferson. He smiles and then hes going about writing dont worry this wont be in that crazy democratic ideas of the future. He is one of the leaders of the university and he is trying from inside to take it over and doesnt get anywhere until jefferson dies and then its going to be an influence over what the university will become in the 1830s and 40s and 50s but. You have to go to the microphone. Theres another book by one of your former colleagues with what i learned i read those books that i would get by rating on the tax you should get my book if you are reading one but if you are reading too, you should read again sf morris nelson. Its more about the longer run of the history of the universe. They are focused on taking the baton where i leave off. There are some in the jefferson era. They are taking the story in a more thorough way onto the 19th century and into the 20th. Good evening welcome and thank you so much for being here i am the director of the library here at mount vernon it is my pleasure
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