People are here when you say i wonder if i am irredeemable to hear all white people and white people as individuals as opposed to whiteness as an identity. So when i go to the second paragraph, what if we took this identity apart that people would not have the different history but a different relationship to identity. And potentially have as a consequence a more humane relationship to each other. So later into the first paragraph an individual someone that was raised by a white man or someone take for example john brown or bob zellner. Who i think are the most precious people in the world but its important to me not to have a formulation that removes them from my sense of the struggle that i am engaged in. So thats what i was thinking. One more question about breathe, mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yes. Thats the sentence my mother said to me. And i think about it in a number of different ways. One of course is all the risk so people talk about it incessantly and some ways that is difficult and maybe not necessarily helpful about the challenges that black boys face in this world whether mass incarceration or inequality your College Attendance rates. I think about it differently. I think not that there are not true but wanting to raise my children who identified as black boys, and a way that does not delimit their imagination or sense of possibility and to understand the facts of racial inequality , that kept the one keeps them thinking they are superior because they are relatively privilege to black people and other people generally and also what keeps them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in a society that values those things highly so thats more more elusive for black men to attain with a society that values that and that for me to raise them to not value that but to value their characters and complexity and sensitivity and no matter the walk of life that they come from so all that is a special calling because what it means to be a man are acrosstheboard including things that are not so good and what blackness is that unless you counter both of those with a story that is more accurate begins a much greater capacity to be fully human. In the last 19 minutes everything weve talked about are these the things that you teach at princeton . Not really. This is a departure for me it is the spirit with which i teach but i tend to teach much more fact and material driven but i do think of teaching as a calling so it is important to bring to that values and humanity and justice and love to the students even im supposed to be less passionate. Had you get a phd and jd from harvard at the same time . Unwisely. [laughter] when i graduated from college in 21 years old i was just completely in love with life and the mind and ideas and i didnt want to choose and i wanted to do everything i will go graduate school and law school then did two years and took my orals and first year of law school, it was a frenzied pace, but it was beautiful and amazing for me and i loved it. I learned so much. And every day i was being nurtured by generations of people that came before me to help me understand the world. We want to play a little bit of music in a little bit of video from 1999. Of course that is betsy norman singing at the rosa parks congressional Gold Medal Ceremony 1999. What is that song . It is lift up their voice that the National Anthem and the black National Anthem after the 1970s and it is a song that ia describe as black mans most precious song. And just that clip of rosa parks and jesse norman who is recently departed is moving. You wrote about the biography of the song maybe forever stand and those that were born in Jacksonville Florida and then back in the day and then to become the first secretary general of the naacp the first black man to make it there which is extraordinary in the signature accomplishments and what are the first generation freeman . The mothers family was not enslaved since the became instant fathers from virginia but yes they were of that generation that emerged from slavery at the end of reconstruction. Host what was the reception in 1900 . What is extraordinary is the song caught on like wildfire. And then immediately embraced as an anthem of black america. I try to detail in the book that the United States did not have a National Anthem at this moment so people were referring to it as an anthem the johnson brothers were educators at the time of the composition and they left florida and went to work as songwriters because they were in a terrible fire in the city so actually they werent there as the song caught on and it caught on with schoolchildren black women recirculated it it was printed in the back of hymnal hymnals, it was an anthem of a community they didnt describe it as an anthem they did not intend to that but they said this is the anthem. If we continued playing the video then we would have seen president clinton singing. Yes. It is one of those distinctions he may only be the us president. From your book maybe forever stand hiphop under the farewell to the black National Anthem. One of the things i talk about in my first book is there is something that happened in the seventies and eighties which is a transformation of black social and political life with the kind of Civic Engagement and association and the industrialization. And there was the piece who says may he rest in peace they have the moral conscience of the nation hiphop is a refusal of that position it is bold, its not formal and not unwilling to perform as a reveling which is commonplace in American Culture but its a different kind of public present so that departure was significant but i also talk about that the song keeps coming back there have been various moments where it felt like it would peter out completely but it keeps coming back even though the kind of institutions and communities in which it was song on a weekly and daily basis dont exist the same way and black communities. Can you draw a direct line to Biggie Smalls and Langston Hughes . Absolutely. Because in so many ways both took the beauty of vernacular language to craft it with the decision to tell stories that were pointed and often had political content and resonated deeply and was a pleasure to listen to and engage with there were different kinds of political subjects and to be an overly an activist and organizer but the relationship to black language and those are directly connected but the process by which it became the most popular form in the country and have an audience that has the core audience because from the very beginning of what postindustrial life in the United States and all of the complexity. It is not to meconium to the hood. Hiphop is not it is an exploration of it. Host you use the term mc. What does that mean . It is the word for wrapper that is a little more organic to hiphop. Initially it comes from master of ceremonies but others spell it phonetic like rapper but the relationship between the rapper and the dj on the producer. And these are in turn all hiphop and then also what made the mc good. But what did that consist of two have that literary analysis of the profits of the hood but that opposition to whiteness that it was part of the art forms conscious and before i go into this a lot has changed since 2004 that describe at present but there is a overt play with the black people as thugs. Of criminality and access and gangsters and violence and hiphop and satirically and critically and to play with that social reality charlie you are on book tv new york go ahead. Caller i have grown and i have seen the world is a very complex situation. I dont support black nationalism is just as much as fascism right in trumps face. But black people are just people they are not inferior or superior. And black nationalism is just as bad as White Nationalism i cannot understand why imani perry supports black nationalis nationalism. I am not a black nationalist. I am far left what it takes on many different faces that are conservative brands of black nationalism that are actually quite aligned. With political conservativism. With the nation of islam and then to advocates like the black Panther Party or the Student Coordinating Committee with the third World Politics and anti colonialism to identify and colonize people across the world. So the single term but i disagree with the equivalent that people try to find a way to build a sense of control and that is not the same but thats not a designation i would subscribe to. Host you say you are far left . And im against economic exploitation and everybody should have access to safe environment, schools, clean water, living wage, healthcar wage, healthcare, we live in this extraordinarily wealthy country and we should not have children who are poor. We shouldnt have People Living on the street. I dont think that the narrative is a consequence of economic vulnerability and we should be okay. Thats not a decent way to organize society. I dont think people are poor because they are deficient but because they are exploited and have lack of opportunity. So the question is much as i write and think about right one race, its never separate from the large question of the distribution of suffering in our society. As an example of how society was organized but my objective is not for black people and with that sense of domination to have that robust democracy that is only possible with a decent quality of life for all people in society selling over 15 million copies of her books she joined us to talk about them. Host you suggest that Justice Kavanaugh should read the newest book spark of light. Why is that quick. Its probably one of the most balanced looks at abortion rights and womens reproductive rights that i have found i worked really hard to make it balanced and i think it would allow him to see other peoples points of view with compassion and protect roe v wade a little longer. Host you say all points of you are represented. House so . The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights clinic some states only have one clinic left because over 200 laws at the state level have chipped away at reproductive rights since 2012 so in my book the gunman comes in and start shooting and kills patients and hostages and then takes the rest hostage. One of the people he takes hostages a 15 yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside and the people in the clinic are a wide range of people. They all believe very Different Things about reproductive rights those that are prochoice and prolife and they are accurately represented. Host how do you storyboard a story like that . With all of the connections and things going on. That is a particularly difficult question because it makes it difficult than the others because its told in reverse the very first thing you see is the standoff between the gunman and the negotiator then the chapter each goes back one hour in times of what you learn is what brought all of these Diverse People to the clinic at that moment. That was much harder than i anticipated. I wrote a 48 page outline because i had to ride it chronologically in reverse but also had to follow the storylines of ten diverse characters. I have never written an outline like that mostar three pages long, i know my characters and the plot and the twist because i want to leave a trail but this was so much going on it was so complex i really needed to map it out the real magic was not the outline but the editing. When i edited i took posted flags and marked up the whole book by character. That i edited in reverse ten different times each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then edit it entirely going forward. Host how long did you spend in mississippi . Between jackson and alabama with a doctor who was an africanamerican Abortion Provider who also identified as a devout christian and says he performs abortions not in spite of his religion but because of it he heard a sermon about the Good Samaritan who will provide for these women if not me so now he goes all over the United States to the most underserved areas so do have cover input . And that is not the original cover for spark of light. I like the covers all things might want them to confuse it. So the art director came back with that so that caught my eyes. Talk about small great things i expect we will talk about. So i look at the color chips if you look at the covers were there is something not quite right about the color. So small great things is about racism in america and that was such a beautiful illustration of what we try to talk about. Host are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. So that book looks of a real life incident in flint michigan an africanamerican nurse 25 years of experience in labor and delivery help deliver a baby and in the aftermath the babys father said she doesnt want her anyone that look like her to touch his kid and pushed up his sleeves and showed a swastika tattoo. So in the hospital there was a postit note in the file to say no africanamerican person can touch the baby. A bunch of personnel banded together and sued i hope they got a great payout. But what if that nurse was the only one alone if something went wrong and as a result she was brought up on charges of murder and what if she was defended by a public defender that never considered themselves to be a racist and the voice of the white public defender began to unpack her own feelings about race. To me small great things is meant to say open your eyes a little wider its easy for people to point to a white supremacist to say thats a racist its a lot harder to point to themselves to say the same thing. But yet race is about prejudice and power if you are white you hold all the power. Although its easier for us to see it if you are a person of color your life might be a little bit harder and harder for white people to acknowledge the challenge of racism and there are unearned benefits just because we are born like this and that is something that is for white people to fix ultimately thats not the reason i wrote the book but that the audience i was hoping for. You in 26 books oil bestsellers . Not by any means. I did not have that overnight oprah moment the first book had 3500 copies that was it but i think what happened people who read my books told their friends they should read this and it grew very organically after my sisters keeper the Second Glance got onto the bestseller list by itself. Host how quickly was my sisters keeper option for the movie . Not quickly at all it took a while. It was not a pleasant experience. [laughter] did it adhere to the book . You have not seen the movie. [laughter] know it is not. When that book was optioned i said the only thing i will say if they keep the ending because it has a monstrous twist i know that sold the boat peoples that i cant tell you what happens just read it so we can talk about it. So the producer that option the book thats how he got it and they asked me if i would talk to him and i said yes and i told him the ending is really important to me he read the book and said i will not change the ending if anybody does i will tell you why and i will tell you myself. I thought okay then i worked with him for a year and a half he would call me and ask me questions about character and then one day i got an email from a fan who worked in the casting agency and said did you know they change the ending of the movie and i called nick at home he would not take my call and went to the movies that he threw me off i went to the head of New Line Cinema and said you will lose money because i have some pretty eager and ardent fans that are rock stars and they will not to want to see this movie and he said we know we are doing. He made the notebook for us and sure enough they lost money on the film i fans were very upset and ultimately the great irony is money speaks i said you will lose money and they did and now as a result of that experience i have more Creative Control of future projects. Host do you have any creative onto option that . No. Most writers do not if you do have Creative Control that is the anomaly because normally what hollywood will do if you want Creative Control we dont need that thank you very much we will go to another author who will take the money and run so its like giving the baby up for adoption you try to make an educated choice and do the best you can but you cannot call every day in say did you feed her breakfast. Host small great things has been optioned. I hope we will have a little more we will see it is early days yet but still barracks company in the optioned it Julia Roberts is attached i can not think of anyone else im delighted so far. She is an incredibly talented actress we will talk about other books that you have written but before we get into the first call have your books gotten more topical over the years . Its funny i tried to look at the trajectory of my career and i actually think it is where my brain is at any given time if you look at the very beginning of my career it was about mothers and daughters i was closer in age to the daughter than the mother. That i had a baby and got married right before my first book was published i had my first child and then the next was about motherhood and incredibly difficult it is it shocked me how hard that was and marriage and relationships and then i had all my kids with a wide span of years were all of my kids, of all the terrifying things that can happen to your kids sexual abuse kidnapping, suicide, all these things. Then they grow up and they got to the point where they were selfsufficient and then i began to take a step back to look at bigger issues that make me sit up at night and worry like the nature of good and evil like racism what it means to grieve and lose someone and reproductive rights and spark of light. Host in my sisters keeper you preface as the mother of the child who has had over ten surgeries. Yes it grew out of two different places. I wrote Secon