Author of the fix its a pleasure to have you here at such an important book because it is focused on solutions and i love your key insight to give your advice to woman what they need to do and what they need to change and then to negotiate more but what you point out is but where are not the ones that are broken what is broken in the workplace and as you know they were designed by men for men and like men it has not worked out very well for us and i love how you put it we need to call a timeout with this women fixing at epidemic it isnt just for women and to make the workplaces work better for everyone. So your book so what brought you to this background . Just looking at why and then to understand that issue many many years ago and that we were asking women to be more with that establish system and then what woman needed to do and very quickly interviewing i found that actually in terms of that leadership capabilities and a lot of that was new to me i didnt know that they are told to attend networking programs and they dont have the same access as men just because they dont have the same access and then to understand what the problem is and why theyre excluded and even when they dont access the benefit the same way so very quickly my Research Found that they were designed by and for which tends to be the dominant assertive ablebodied white male most women and then it creates a lot of the challenges and what is really interesting it really doesnt work for men so they face a lot of challenges so my book outlines and then they try to live up the ideal standard that is quite the opposite of what we have today. So tell us about this interest in the first place and so explain how you got interested in the topic. Ive been working in Human Resources for most of my career a lot of Different Countries and environments know what i found consistently was gender inequality across these different environments and i became increasingly interested in how workplaces with the workplace and i version led me to want to understand this issue as a practitioner over the last 17 years but also the research those qualifications to understand what it is about the workplace the doesnt support everybody to research and an equal way so it became apparent that there are solutions out there so its about trying to share that when it comes to the quality and seclusion and equity thats what i have been trying to share this message but also as a practitioner. And about how messed to research you have done and that is just wrong. And with that conventional wisdom to act in a certain way is incorrect. Across the board and not asking then to that we will think about it and then written in a time and place where people really want solutions and like the idea to overcome inequality that they had no hand in creating. That you can do everything just right. Women get that performance because they werent designed with the ideals. To set that ideals standard and the more challenges you will face those are inherently set up with those prototypes. And anybody who might differ so then all the solutions that we have something we are asking men to do do any of these Solutions Work so that is what is the pay gap so thats not the case it is actually 25 percent less likely and part of that discrimination and what that looks like for women and almost thankful that you have a job and then asking and then they penalize and with those attributes so the aim is if we have the solutions to go into the Work Environment and then we will never really value them but look at the solutions to say do they were . And in most cases they dont it is at the underlying system of inequality which is the policy of the practices in terms of daytoday behaviors and those that value people differently in men more than women. The other research that talks about women speak more than men that they are penalized and we think less of them where men speak more in that setting we reward them for that and it does seem like a double standard in a variety of ways that you point to so the subtitle of the book you talk about overcoming invisible barriers and holding back at work are there other sources of invisible barriers that we can recognize . The conformity behind it. And with that masculine ideal standard for the white middleclass ablebodied male and to be associated with the dominant assertive aggressive and competitive and those behaviors of masculinity when they engage they are competent but not likable because and you have to engage in behaviors you dont typically associate with femininity. Then they define the standard of what we look like for women small and unassuming and maternal they will really be disliked so there is this tradeoff to engage in these behaviors to be competent and then for those to be likable so with the tradeoff between likability and confidence so in terms of the capability of those perceptions for promotion and advancement so we see that early on so one of the big challenges in the reason we wrote this book but to be in denial of what i discovered in my own research that the meritocracy that everybody is the same because they are all treated the same way so they dont have different experiences so that kind of logic we are denying the difference and the inequality so then going to encounter is to condition that expectation that it is the meritocracy and that success discriminates that you can do everything right. Because you dont set the prototypes and have to struggle that conformity so the best thing they can do is how workplaces and how you navigate most importantly to accommodate different and work for everybod everybody. Throughout the book it brings home how the mail is at fault that is that women that they dont form to that they are the other there is a passage in the book when you talk about if like childcare benefits and parental leave creating a workforce from scratch right now for all of us they would be built into the workplace but because women are the other and the workplace did not start with women in mind those are all benefit so the point is they should be benefits and part of the fabric. And so that thought for me one of the things we dont talk enough about and then with the denial for the challenges that men face but it doesnt but that even then were not not without the cost. So they dont talk about having to balance fatherhood and with that ideal standard or even if it makes them uncomfortable and living up to that ideal because when it comes to motherhood to drive me crazy this is a woman problem how even that term of motherhood not how we make them more apparent but to set into the Work Environment and youre not helping me the workplace is actually fixing something and then we talk about the workplace that they made us with those capabilities and there is a great study by the federal bank of st. Louis that found over 30 are. The most productive workers are mothers and specifically mothers of two. So it is no surprise we know what it takes people chuckle when you say that but they were designed for that. So for me not on a Flexible Work policy that the United States is a huge issue the basics that people are entitled to but also so do men so that opportunity but you can have all of those policies in place and that it still not effective in the reason is culture so the whole book talks about culture so if you think of day to day your boss says its hard to advance on schedule because you are on a reduced work schedule those unfair one invisible barriers with employees who reader one reduce with the longterm Career Opportunities in two thirds are women so the challenges that inequality creates shows up in the daytoday moment that they are a crime with the challenges to consider those outside of work in the Work Environment so this will do away to do these policies and we dont have leaders who are leading and those operating environments and with that whole criticism at what we need outside of work. As someone has told you hundreds of people as the editorinchief and also as the mom of two mothers are soul productive and not surprised at all but lets talk about the solution here talk about culture change and also about leadership and so what is the balance to get to the right place . Do we need a legislative change all about culture change and what is the right balance . I talk about this in the book quality comes down to leadership and the reason i say that is because what it looks like when it comes to behavior and to live up to that standard when we think about what that looks like and many of those leaders today are in denial of the challenges a woman face and if we just dont understand the barriers women face and to remove those barriers but thats when a woman is spoken over in a meeting or a sexist comment that excludes or marginalizes those employees at work. We need leaders to manage and those i dont cover in my book and how leaders can take action today. So just simply managing those moments is something everybody can do when you see discrimination and marginalization and exclusion pulled him aside and talk about it and use it as a learning moment and reese and one resetting the standards so the challenges to do that well we need to know the barriers and what you Pay Attention to you and what to look at and to know what the barriers are is to do that you have to disrupt your own denial and think about how my deposition of privilege . To have a that makes it that much easier if you are a woman in the leadership role to understand the barriers but if you are a man you have your masculinity in common and then to think about what you have in common to make it that much easier that if nobody says the leaders have had to work hard we just everybody else has to work hard to but they have to overcome those invisible barriers so thats what we want leaders to do to disrupt or denial and understand your privilege and how makes it that much harder. Get to know the barriers every day. So much of what you are talking about is unconscious bias and some of it is our right bias and mention those 17 barriers. Sure. The thing i will say on the unconscious bias i am not a massive fan by training because Research Shows a lot of unconscious training is if you are raising people and then telling them that its unconscious so they feel that have to do anything about it so what we need to do is to that decisionmaking and thats exactly what my book tries to do by outlining the barriers how invisible and what you can do to navigate it or prevent that from happening again so we go through the book like simply not being aware to have those expectations so what we find womens confidence drops by more than 60 percent and that perception of how much they fit into the organization and the reason is simply not knowing the challenges for when you do encounter them so is it me youre the workplace . To grapple maybe i all im not cut out for corporate life so all things of our conformity bias but also how they look at that much harder to be see confident or capable so we have to over perform and that can create a lot of challenges. If you approach motherhood and one of the key reasons for that is and with that prototype and something physically that you see. And then try to hide their pregnancy at work or not feeling well. I have a great story around the colleague he was told to lean in at four months pregnant now because she was pregnant she was less capable and less confident so she really had to prove herself even further. Already performing at a high rate and it even more work and that was damaging and putting your baby at risk something called the motherhood tax and the motherhood penalty and it plays out with women performance with the prototype and that they associate with mothers so we see that with a reduction of wages with all those usual factors and then we really see that play out. And those that are crazy but then we move to more those leaders and we are often unaware with the challenges but broke in on breaking through the Glass Ceiling and to be hypo one hyper visible and to defy the standard so numerous challenges like backlash and to be undermined that people dont support their decisions and with that stereo typical typecasting to label Women Leaders labeled as i. C. E. Queen making it very hard to lead in a way that is not associated so throughout their careers so its a bit of a roadmap with those past experiences and some of those barriers that may come up because it could help to present that internalizing. And to break down the reason visible barriers to focus on me to and Sexual Harassment but when they do get together and use the is among ourselves and general it is the invisible barriers that we talk about women are interrupted three times more frequently than men. And its all backed up by research but these are the things being talked over and ignored and belittled a word to be left out of the conversation in the meeting before the meeting not with the outright sexism that we saw 30 or 40 years ago with all of the use it leads to the recognition for women in the workplace. But i want to talk about quotas because there are a number of people they have instituted quotas so you have fairly strong feelings about that. Explain. Thats funny because people love quotas and this is a bit of a rant i never used to have a problem with full transparency but then researching the challenges women and men experienced then i came to realize the damage that quotas do. And the reason i am opposed to them is a lot of organizations it is the go to solution to mandate a certain percentage of women in leadership positions or copy and paste them and then hold women accountable for fixing the inequality of culture inequality they had no hand in creating. That happens all the time. The reason it is damaging is when i interview women and men at two different organizations from a phd research, i found the barriers that were compounded through quotas when women already have that legitimacy because they dont fit that prototype and they have to work that much harder but when you copy and paste a woman into that position she is seen as having get that role with those inclusion quotas so instantly everybody questions their capability to question the legitimacy to be in that role and faces tremendous backlash day today is also very damaging to women because they question themselves if they truly are ready for that role so then that plays out with men the number one barrier to mens advancement according to man is the advancement of women because they see that initiative that they focus on women so this is the ultimate solution with the idea to advance women into the position and i would be fine with that if it was true because they have said to me the only way we could fix the environment the leaders will never get it but the reality is quotas dont work. We talk about that a lot with the lack of sustainability of copy paste solutions if you put a women into leadership simply having a woman in a leadership role makes you 50 percent less likely to hire another women with women as ceos 45 percent more likely to be dismissed regardless of performance and 60 percent more likely to be replaced by a white mail so the idea of putting them into leadership positions wont solve the problem it is not true not only as a damaging but they dont work and they are not sustainable but this is less of those representing haitians are more at creating the culture of the qualities so employees feel like they can be themselves or be valuable to the culture of a quality woman is six times more likely to advance with Senior Leadership and then you say how can that be but when you no longer advance a small number of people that everybody has an opportunity to make it and in these environments employees are six times more likely to innovate and that is critical. Is less about how to get a quick fix to make it looks like we have gender representation and more understanding why you dont and what is it about your environment but for me it is a longterm approach and commitment. Lets unpack that for a moment. Working with corporations on gender equality with senior male leadership will say we really want more women in Senior Leadership we just cant find them. What i always say to them and this goes with your research, look at your entrylevel if it is 5050 and leadership is 90 percent male then you are losing the women and its not that they all want to go off and have babies you need to look at every single level and see where you are we and where the problem is within the organization. So what you are talking about leads to more innovation and more women being promoted so it all comes around to being a longterm proposition but also what i love that you talk about is that longterm is a number of years but not a generation if you look at a law firm or Consulting Firm bringing people in at entrylevel within seven or eight years they can become senior people. To that point to say we cant find them i get told that all the time. In the energy and resource sector, tech and energy i am told that all the time and what i will say to that organizations do this well in terms of getting women into the organization have the right environment so its easier to attract women into the organization we are smart. Looks like very god boss the ranking of the best culture for women and environment for women we know the organizations that support us. Those are the ones that will attract the talent when it comes to women and those underrepresented groups you have to create those right conditions to be successful thats an important starting point so to say we cant find women that means they cant because how many leaders have exposure to underrepresented groups to qualify candidates you can expose yourself to a broad range of qualified capable black and white women or hispanic or lgb d one dash lgbtq from a range of areas and where you expose yourself to differences to make sure you understand it does exist you just havent been exposed to it when it comes time to hire a leader they know those candidates that every organization can do today to actively seek out even externally to take the role when you leave and not to say they would get that but im saying it is really about finding qualified people and candidates the same way that men support to that underrepresented group. So it is kind of lazy to say you cant find them actually you are not exposed we are out there you just have not reached out or made it your mission to develop a Diverse Network and that is factually true they just dont have the network and they dont have the exposure for those qualified candidates. And is not just women but you talk a lot in the book and we can expand for the viewers about intersectional sexism