Transcripts For CSPAN2 Katherine Sharp Landdeck The Women With Silver Wings 20240713

A historian at the museum asking about the new book the women with silver wings thank you for joining us today and i thank you for having me. She has a great stream photo photos. Lets see if i can figure this out. This will just roll its nothing specific. This is a wonderful new book from april 21st document back is associate perversity at coincidentally and that is home of the archive. And then im sure she will talk about her journey getting the book to publication. How did you get started on this topic . Thats a great question. That this is that moment in time and thats her with all the aviation people curtis is one of the coolest airplanes ever. That in june 1993 and somebody pointed out that curtis was in the shade of the hanger over there. I said i will go say hello. So as a champion of the 1951. And also in world war ii. Ive never heard of any of them. So hasnt one of my friends said i just decided that was wrong. These were incredible and did a lot of great things and flying during world war ii. And it took 27 years to get here i have been studying them and telling their story ever since syndicates definitely part of the war the audience is interested in it with the resources so they clearly had an impact on your career spending 27 years now has that influenced your career in other ways . We had the Real Advantage to spend a lot of time and those that were lost after the war and then to do oral histories to take me down a whole other path of training to do history the right way that the university of tennessee and learned how to do oral history and those types of things so the more i learned about things the my want everybody to learn about them with good academic history and work which is why we work so hard to get the source is right. And want everybody to know about them. And in that trajectory toward public history working with museum such as yours and airshows not just conferences not just a small subset. And then try to find that balance between academic history and public history to try to find that marriage between the two of them. You managed to do that that the personal stories and then to put those together with the historical record. So in that vein was there when you had to corroborate does anybody stand out may be was a fun challenge . That was a great question thank you for your kind words. There are so many i tried to get that accuracy people are remembering something they did 50 years ago and one story in particular and the mainstream that has been sensationalized to be proved right or wrong was she was died in camp davis was one of the first 38 women that died during the war and i start to hear stories in the 19 nineties and how it was so awful and it was covered up and just not accurate. s trying to spend a lot of time he was telling the stories and to tell me what was shot down. And then talking to the people that were actually there. And those that were in the air that day. And then and that the plane had problems. But if it is a Conspiracy Theory you have to go beyond that. That is one of those stories that gets touted a lot. And i was able to do some good research. And those three good sources not to prove something was accurate. And you could prove me wrong but i tried to get that accuracy because there are so many rumors tied to these women and their stories. One of the things that is misunderstood is the back story and with the air force and even women that view that as an experiment they wouldnt know how to call themselves that but how do they get to that point . Thats a great question it existed 1944 and those are the dates that they accept and started with the womens auxiliary. And then to bring experience. And at the same time the Army Air Force has realized 28 women was not enough to do this. And starting the track and it has come out the last couple of years and these were separate. And absolutely were not. So that way train so those first three classes of women doing the training and then join the previous women and then the name of this Collaborative Group when they Work Together to make this project work the name change or to the Women Air Force Service Pilots for what they had expanded that they were just going to be pilots by the summer 43 they realize they had an opportunity to see what else women could do. So they expanded initially to camp davis in north carolina. So they realized it was no longer accurate so they expanded it to the women Service Pilots for the Army Air Force so they were taking something that already existed and then they added air force general arnold was all about and then added that in and i found that document yet but that is where that name change came and the cooperation and collaboration there from the beginning so you have to say september 42 through december 44. Says of the things important to clear up. So what is the the reason the book it is titled that because so many that i talk to talk about the significance of the wings for me personally. It was an incredible achievement or when they were flying to getting married or having a baby. This is a moment in time i was so significant and women didnt almost have wings. And that first group that was going to graduate in houston there were no wings for them. That they have gone to the same training and they call Jackie Cochran and her husband one of the richest man in america and that the girls dont have wings and he said get them some ways we will pay for it. And for the last several classes. And then when you get to the 1944 classes. And in 1944 but and then to symbolize they were pilots so that just meant a lot. And that ad hoc situation and clearly too large for these ladies but what they had to work through at the time speaking about mens gear you see them now in the fighting jackets 350,000 american women joined but they never got official military status. What was the reasoning behind that . Thats a great question and part of that with which they were brought into the program and werent sure how to do it with the Army Air Force with the civilians be on probation for 90 days and that is the idea to see what women could do women actually do this . Thats what they call him an experiment could the girls do it was the attitude. So with the intention they would be brought into the military properly. Then it became a challenge of how to do the paperwork under the Womens Army Corps how did we do this differently in the spring and summer of 1944 to bring them in as a separate group and they bring them before congress in june 1944 and then to go into normandy. So this growing campaign against the women a group of mail fight and structured on instructors who had been let go doing preliminary flight instructing we havent had as many losses so we didnt need as many pilots and now they are all draft deferred. And then flying airplanes. These men talk to their congressmen and senators so it is wrapped up to become part of the military. And this is a gender challenge do we let women take the mens jobs . And then you add to that mix the bill comes up june of 44 and the debate goes on that is the end of the session. People thought we would be done by christmas. So its not to make them part of the military it is a technical vote to set the bill side one that can come up in the senate and the question is and it all goes back with those abilities as pilots whether women could have jobs and the idea to release them for other duties. And in the fall of 1944 that was replacing them. So just as we see and then to be kicked out of the factories. And then they would lose their jobs. That is a big part of it. That was a long answer but its a sad ending for a group of women who did incredible things and then its hard to believe but the things women did before was it ten days . So that they do these things and their skills as aviators are called into question. Unfortunately did any of the women never talk to you to desire to going to come back . And that so grateful to prove themselves at all did anybody look that up. Thats a good question and one of those places that we talk about any oral history 50 years after the war the letters and diaries to see where they stayed consistent and numbers of women would have done whatever the country needed the war effort husbands or brothers wanted to do their part and to bring those men home. They would have done whatever was asked of them and that tone is in the letters and diaries. They dont know what will be required but will do whatever is necessary. When he interviewed them later in canada done the things and physically could have done it and that she would have done it. She can fly the airplane. And the country asked of course she wouldve done it. And then expected to be taken into combat. That is a brave and unique limit and then what is hard but what scares me senseless is a 70 come and shoot at me. That were the lives lost . 38 women were killed during the war. Nine were shot down. But when they were doing the targeting they would get shot. But none of them were shut shot down the 30 who died was a variety of accidents. One which is the plane was worn out. And all the new planes are going where they need to go to the men in combat and those training bases and to cannibalize other planes to prepare them so to have a lot of those malfunctions to take and then training accidents and with those instructors on board where something went wrong so its our wide variety of accidents may had them domestically as well that rate was comparable thats why now those statistics in my early study everybody knew they were cool but where they any good as pilots and they were. It was comparable or better than the men doing the same job sadly they did their job. So pushing it to our website so you will be right back if you havent read it i recommend you visit the website. And then to take it across the country. And with those capabilities. And because they wanted to prove themselves and to work so hard. And then to deliver that he 47 that was ten grand it was interesting how she noted enough flight log and then they get letters back from those that receive the plane if that was significant or did you just happen to find the letters . A number of them did and that they would write down little notes once in a while. I dont know of any that turned into a great romance or anything like that please let me know if you know that story i would love to hear about it. And those to have that communication to know the story of what happened next. And one of those neat little inside stories and to face a lot of challenges was there a particular challenge that came above all other challenges . So during the war they face the challenge of they were doing the right thing. They all have at least one that supported then the father or mother or husband with that idea and didnt respect those that were in the military very well so that was the challenge of being respected when you doing your part to the war effort for with that pseudo military situation they ate at the Officers Club when they got off they were saluted with the military rank and the family got 250 for the service death benefit that was balance between the two. And the the war was still going on and when they were disbanded there was the battle of the bulge of a recovery and then when they come home its a big party but halfway through telling people what you are doing wasnt important and that was difficult for them to figure out what to do next. So they have all this training. And they had nothing to do with that now. And in a try to go to china and brazilians they were open to them coming but that didnt work out for many of them summit one is allied of the challenges and that image that we see right now and then at the end of the discussion forward to get recognition and these challenges have been ongoing in recent years that what spurred this drive and how they were successful . Technically they were civilians but and the seventies with the Womens Movement and also in the early seventies you have those armed forces saying for the First Time Ever to fly military planes and the women realized they were forgotten. Wasnt a conspiracy but they were just forgotten which i think is worse than anything else so they were to fix that and be recognized as veterans with a huge grassroots effort. It actually started in the sixties with the fight but the rest god on board in the seventies and it was several years of fighting and getting petition signed and the image sitting outside of this fancy new movie called star wars and getting people signatures and things like that and then they were finally recognized as veterans in 1977 and then the way the bill was written for the purposes of the Veterans Administration did not get the g. I. Bill or any of those things they are allowed to put a flag on the coffin and that was important to them into their families to do that. Then you can see they got the congressional gold medal that was awarded 2010 which was a great deal of fun they had a fun time. And one of the later battles is something i remember reading that to be very Dan Arlington i believe you had some involvement in the . Yes president obama and Elaine Harmon always accepted to go to arlington and when she died her family was told wasps are no longer allowed the way the bill was written they were veterans for the purposes of the veterans minute administration and at Arlington National cemetery it was getting crowded and people were worried about it overflowing so they said no and elaine was a dear friend very smart with a very stubborn and smart family and they decided that will not work for us so they worked very hard to get that changed. s i worked in make sallys office to write the bill to work through the different language they needed to use to make it accurate. So thats a great privilege. It is a great privilege to help them get the final recognition. We will get some audience questions the first one, speak to the personal traits of the women. They are so very fortunate have gotten to know them over the years and several years ago that was put together a video where she interview the kids tell me about your mother and it was all funny because they said shes nice but she is independent. Independent. Independent. Stubborn. Those were the two most common words and stubborn and a good way when they decide to do something they will do and very independent they dont care so much they care what other people think that if they think they can do something then they will do that. That was definitely the most common trait. Also very intelligent very athletic in a fit as well and smart and intelligent. And that has come up in a good ways. Has any of your research with the differences with the wasps . Its a great question with the soviet women pilots they were in such a different place in the americans world during world war ii so our women didnt need to do the same work that the wasps had Great Respect several of the women in the early 19 nineties went to russia with a number of the pilots she interviewed and number so that i respect is they are for sure and then to do some very serious work that they didnt know about them during the war obviously that in the year since and said that could have been so i do look at the soviets alive. Its not in the book but its a Fascinating Group of women sure. Were there navy wasps or equivalents . No. Great question and why is talked about her husband one of them worked for grumman and some of the friends would testify that there was no official women doing that. Never those that the line from navy planes but they were not pilots and not sense of first the navy leads the way in the seventies so that is an interesting story. But during the war there were not women pilots during the navy. And to say there were 1100 women aviators any idea how many the United Kingdom already had . You have several hundred women and several american women whose lives with the air transport and those that are a part of that and it was a support for the Royal Air Force but they were very supportive to support that were effort from base to base over different repairs that needed to be done they would fly across the channel going into france. So the women in england were pretty astounding. So describe michalski rule she was the first female pilot. She actually came to the reunion and got to meet some of the wasps this was the last official reunion i was honored to be the chair of that reunion and she came and gave a talk and a couple of the kids were talking with her that they need a congressional gold medal. Dont you . And was stricken by the idea and i believe she worked her magic it is a huge player to make that congressional gold medal happened for the women you can still find them on cspan and hes a big part of the ceremonies as well. She is terrific. No doubt they were an inspiration. But marjorie is asking what do you have . Im glad you asked that. Really it is never ending i started to use and 96 when it just started and there was one collection of boxes and out today it goes on for thousands of boxes worth of materials have everything, resources that i need or the letters and firings in official documents and pictures they have donated but then they do have uniforms and shoes and bags. Anything that you need. Because of those archives a loan those out to museums see what you have an exhibit about the wasps. So that when you are done with that exhibit you send it back so they take great care of the materials as well as more modern women but those military aviators they just have so much if you are interested in doing more research about the wasp thats a place to go they could do anything you ever wanted. Its fantastic so much as been gathered in one place and its wonderful i am sure and make you very happy over the years. Nobody gets to live seven minutes from the archives. Nobody. Nobody. [laughter] thats incredible i have a last question here are any of them still with us . Yes. We have about 32 who are left. We had 25000 modified, so it is one of those they are Pretty Amazing women. We have one more question come and we dont want to miss. In your research do you ever come across after five start the helicopter using a much slower helicopter the first day i was introduced to a lady that cannot teach me a recent combat that anything and come to find out the person asked him a question so are you familiar with loretta . I know of her i didnt have a chance to meet her in person but it is a similar story that ive heard a lot of people that is trying to teach me something and then they learn so as that started did ride after the war and in the seventies after the kids were gone its always fun to meet when the Flight Instructor down the road they certainly taught them in a special way. I can only imagine getting to learn from one of those ladies. The final question for the day from joyce why did it take so many others to get the status and benefits . Thats a great question. And there is a lot of pushback when the economy was not great 1945, 1946. And that to talk to me about this a lot and thought they never wouldve gotten the benefits without the civil rights movement. The changes that it brought through the example showed the Womens Movement were as part of that as well am part of that to the wasps themselves that they were in their late forties and then the fifties and i kids are grown and that they can see they were forgotten. They wanted to have those 38 women died to be remembered. The biggest call. But they wanted that they wanted to not be forgotten so it is that timing and in their personal life is partly why it took that long. So you are busy but then they were at that nostalgic age and all those things come together and make it happen when it happens. Your wonderful book well add to that you can go to the Museum Online or just order the book and thank you so much for being here today to talk with us hoping to have you on campus later today but this is been a wonderful experience and we hope to have you back and everyone watching, thank you for your questions and joining us today. I like to remind everyone it will be on youtube so check it out have a great day. Welcome to this Virtual Event about the new book how the southland civil war and the continuing fight for the soul of america i am a professor of history and american studies at Yale University and this afternoon i have the pleasure to be and conversation about her book this is being produced by the brooyn