Matthew whitaker, acting attorney general from november of 2018 through february of 2019, the author of this new book, above the law the inside story of how the Justice Department tried to subvert President Trump. Before we begin with the book, explain how you became the acting attorney general to us. Great first question. I was chief of staff to attorney general Jeff Sessions starting in october of 2017, i did that for 13 months before general sessions resigned abruptly the day after the elections in 2018 and the president appointed me that day, the acting attorney general utterly bridged the gap between Jeff Sessions and william barr. How did you become Jeff Sessionss chief of staff. Were you a friend of his . One of the things i talk about is how i only met Jeff Sessions once before i was selected to be his chief of staff. I interviewed with him and talked to him many times, mutual friend in the white house and at the Federalist Society recommended me to him and his people. We bonded over College Football and our love for good bbq. A match made in heaven. One of the things you say about mister sessionss recusal from the russia investigation, personal in fact driven. I wasnt there when he did the analysis, he took over in february of 2017, some recusal analysis for me and my staff in the department of justice to complete, a personal decision, it is methodical, what you describe in this book is how it affected the work and the permit of justice, Epic Department of justice, the Mueller Investigation, it is very difficult to operate in the environment, they validate that, returning to regular order in the normal chain of command. You write that every american regardless of personal politics should be concerned by what i find happen to donald trump in the department of justice in 20172019. Primarily, the department of justice added that, for law and order doing justice, when it didnt follow regular order was not properly predicated investigations was glossing over basic fundamental practices of investigations, for example when there was no evidence or counter evidence developed they go down a path and investigate crimes that ultimately as we saw in the Mueller Report were never established and there never was any evidence that supported those investigations. One of the reasons i wrote this book was to remind professionals at the department of justice and investigative agents that we need to do the right thing for the right reason and follow timehonored practices that put the department of justice in its place, unfortunately her by these recent chapters we saw in the department of justice but by no means does this make the case that this was all people and every investigation, one reason i wrote this book was to highlight the important work of the great men and women of the department of justice, so many of them do think the right way without claim and make the country better because they are involved in the justice system. Host one of the recurring themes in your book niaid is this, quote, what bothered me most for members of the executive branch who put their own interests above those of the president can you give us some examples of that . Guest one example that we are familiar with is how jim comey conducted the fbi and members of the senior staff were often times shaping stories in the media. A lot of evidence on the Public Record about how leaks were made to correct, with representations that leaked the story how he confronted the attorney general in the Obama Administration regarding an investigation. That was all source from him, other examples of where i really believe one of the ways we got off the path at the department of justice and the fbi was individuals putting themselves and their own reputations ahead of the interests of the executive branch and i want to say the interest of the executive branch im in the constitutional interest that makes our constitutional system so balanced and work on an everyday basis. Host do you believe there is a deep state . Guest there are those individuals within the permanent bureaucracy and career officials who do not believe in the president s agenda. It is a lawful and ethical agenda and they resisted small resisted, the nomenclature of a, quote, deep state is kind of for others to decide how to define this was what i saw is people that were not only working against the president s agenda in the executive branch, and my point, what i say in the book is those people if they really believe it is not accomplish or support the president s agenda, lawful and ethical which it is, the president s priority we saw at the department of justice is lawful and ethical, everyone in the executive branch because of another thing i talk about in the book, the unitary executive theory, everyone should poll in the same direction. I am surprised as controversial as it is the American People through the Electoral College elect the president and those president s are entitled to implement their agenda. Host you describe the attitude of some of those people in doj, they view donald trump as a, quote, dangerous interloper. Guest they view several of us in that way, as outsiders, those that are not of washington and of this elite world, this is the beauty of our system in the United States, that people with good ideas can come to washington dc, can win elections and to advance those priorities and the way i describe it, so much in the system and i believe in america, in major cities in washington dc and new york and other places, we are all a part of it and one of the things donald trump did which surprised a lot of people is gave voice to a lot of people who felt forgotten. A lot of people from places like where i am from, flyover country where you really believe the coastal elites dont understand why you value your way of life, why you like having a grill in your backyard and why you like having sort of an aboveground pool and all the things, target shooting at all the things we celebrate and do in places like iowa where i am from. Host were you prepared for the media when you came into the acting ag position . Im not sure i could ever have expected the attention and suddenness with which i was thrust on the National Stage. I was ready for the job. I had done 13 months as chief of staff and attorney general, i knew how the department of justice operated, i had relationships with everyone in the executive branch and other places was ive been a us attorney for five years. I knew the department of justice very well, the mission and the people. The media even though i had been a trigger on cnn in boston i knew how the media covers stories. I was not ready for the amount not only of reporters that were following these stories but their insatiable desire for new angles, new breaking news and how bitterly partisan it had become and i continue to believe the mission of the department of justice is not political, it is to do justice in every case but i would have to say i was surprised by the media spotlights that befell me when i became acting attorney general. Operationally when the attorney general recused himself from the russia investigation how does that work in doj and how are you kept up to date on development . Once i became chief of staff to attorney general sessions, the whole office of attorney general was recused as well. When i became chief of staff all i knew about the russia investigation was what i saw on tv, every night after work i would be subjected if i cared to watch the news, i didnt learn anything about the actual investigation until i came back to the attorney general. Host when you became acting were you briefed into the whole investigation at that point . I was, and others but it was not immediate. This is one of the things we need to appreciate about the moment in time, i was smart enough to know if i wanted it could dominate my waking moment. There was so much work we were doing, also the highest profile work we were doing but so much other work and i brought in a us attorney named greg scott, kind of a great individual with a ton of experience, a two time us attorney for the Bush Administration with me and he returned the administration to do it again and was the perfect person to come in, made him responsible on my behalf to manage, and and with Everything Else we have to do. The attorney general since 2004, 2005 time frame, for a few decades, and the part of justice, and impressive resume, and my department of justice i described in the book. And the American People saw them on National Stage in the hearings last week. And in difficult circumstances. It is at the department of justice. What is the period on this whole thing. John sullivan has john gleason, the department of justices view on this. When does it end . Guest that is a great question. As i watch sort of the various pieces and parts. When will anybody be held accountable for this. We were cheering for the red team of the blue team is unfortunate, one of the things i try to do is step back, and we can learn the lessons, william barr was talking about that earlier this week. The job of the attorney general is to figure out what happens to make sure it doesnt happen again. This will be around through the summer. John durham, it is important what Lindsey Graham is doing in the Senate Judiciary committee is very important. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions because objectivity seems to have left our society sometime around 2016. Host devon nunez wrote the forward to your book. He did. One of the things when my book came out a few weeks ago, devon nunez pointed out an important fact that i knew at the moment i was appointed, not sure i articulated as well as he did but i found myself in this obstruction of justice track that was set because if you look at every moment whether it was january of 2017 when the Mueller Investigation happened, crossfire hurricane, there was no evidence of the collusion theory, the text between stzrok and page, the Mueller Investigation did not find a relationship between anyone from the trump campaign, what we found ourselves in, looking for anyone to interfere with the conduct of the investigation, i sense that. I sense that that, as soon as i got briefed the first time. Host what are the rules that govern an independent counsel as opposed to a special counsel . Guest the independent counsel aspired in 1999, that is what Kenneth Starr was appointed under most famously, it was a statute, oversight of judges in separate and distinct from the department of justice it didnt really have a role for the executive branch. A lot of people saw what happened to bill clinton in the whitewater investigation and almost bipartisan agreement that we dont need that to happen again the way it happened and in an attempt to not have a repeat of the Kenneth Starr investigation the department of justice past a regulation, what bob mueller was appointed at its gerald in the Scooter Libby prosecution was appointed under that statute i believe. It was used from time to time where the independence of the department of justice and the executive branch could be put into question. It is very discretionary as to when it could be implemented but puts protection in the firing of the special counsel, makes it the for a cause instead of the will of the discretion of the department of justice. It is something as i outlined in the book unconstitutional and i think should be eliminated or dramatically reformed and i set out a couple ways that could happen. We have 93 us attorneys in the United States who do their job every day with great discretion and great judgment and often times you see general sessions and william barr appointing us attorneys who do their own job but do discrete function in the department of justice, a tried and true way to make sure there is insulation in the investigation, they are part of the executive branch. Host i should have asked you this before but as acting attorney general you get the honorific or title of general as well . Guest people give that to me, but i have been called matthew, i have been called general. It was an honorable lifetime to serve as acting attorney general, the one thing i dont get is in the department of justice. That is certainly something that doesnt come with the office. Guest was Robert Mueller will utilized . Guest the subject i talk about in this book with Robert Mueller was we all saw with our own eyes him testify and there were a lot of hopes and dreams that would turn this 400 plus page television event, bringing to life, make a movie out of the book and we saw he did not have command of a lot of the investigation. If i answer the question, waited for another question upon saying that, would have been baffled like a lot of us were in watching Robert Mueller testify. He is a leader, a decorated marine vietnam veteran who served more than 10 years in the fbi as a us attorney, he had done everything he could do at the department of justice with distinction. I said a lot of positive things and still believe that today but taken advantage of by staff, that product that is the Mueller Report is not a product he wrote, it was written by people that wanted to score political points, too bad and something i criticized, it was done this way in the regulation in hindsight. What did you learn about oversight of the fbi . The United States attorney before i came to washington dc, was nominally part of the department of justice and one of the things everyone needed to make sure as we continue to do is have the fbi director follow the popular reporting mechanisms, it is not in independent branch or the chain of command. Especially jim comey, jim comey tried to make the fbi independence from the executive branch and the department of justice and real attention. You can see some of the anonymous report and stories that came out in the Obama Administration, jim is running the play and famously what he did with Hillary Clintons case where he did not follow regular order and he announced the declination, we never announced declination to explain the evidence we found, that is exactly what he did in the email situation much to the surprise, the appointment of his losses, the Deputy Attorney general in the Obama Administration, a very public way, his push to make the fbi more independent from the department of justice in the executive branch, complete and utter disaster. One of the things you citing your book is the former attorney general eric older called himself president obamas wing man and it was important something you can rely on. Is that correct . Theres a lot more to that. The interesting thing as i look at the criticism. The media in addition to the way we treated the jfk rfk relationship was of course the president should have complete confidence and i think the shoe is on the other foot when someone like william barr doing things, william barr doing the work of the attorney general but when the criticism comes it always seems to be attorney generals for republican president s was all attorney generals need to follow the law and do things in the policies of the department of justice. I continue to be surprised that general holder called himself president obamas wing man, the president needs to have confidence in his attorney general. You write about general law, i would argue that holder is above the law, grandstanding, largely responsible for the socalled ferguson effect, with 72 of Police Officers questioning suspicious people as they were in 2015 according to pew research. I place a lot of the responsibility, policing in major cities after ferguson and other situations, a pull back of the police with what jim comey in terms of the ferguson effect in major cities, and overall conversation that continues, how do the Police Protect and serve and have the confidence of those communities. These voices i am hearing made me, made me think about my experience at the department of justice, for 5 and half years as he was attorney i worked closely with cases, general ashcroft said it best, weldon policing enhances liberty and freedom, we need to get to the model and find a way in a small town, in places where i am from is done the right way, the data shows us in communities, the discussion that we have right now. Donald trump called for an expedited investigation what happened in minneapolis to mister floyd, what is the attorney generals role . In the Civil Rights Division at the department of justice has a big role when it comes to excessive use of force, the plate that the department of justice has many time for individuals that were violated and doing things like a review of training and all those things. Not only in addition to what happened to george flynn was unacceptable, inconsistent with everything we all know and need to get to the bottom of and make sure situations like this never happen again but that the permit of justice through the Justice Program can also fund Police Training and studies in the data we need to address some of these situations but in cases like this, we do an investigation handling this, share information, handling the case. The main officer, his knee on the neck of george floyd, horrific video, very difficult to watch, he allegedly had a plea agreement with the state we see state and federal cases out of this. Back to your book, quote, the president ial policy closest to my heart was showing support for loc