Politics. Hi, priscilla and brandon. You have to unmute. Nice to be here. Thanks for having us. When i was asked to sort of moderate this, one of the thing that it brought up brought to mind or brought null mill enemy he was now in the early how 200s there was a panel u. S. Discussion of the future of books and people making prediction about he future of books and how things had to change and which way they needed to go and that was all tied to the emergence of ebooks and ebook technology and most of the people saved at that time did not turn out to be true. Ebooks did not take over from print books. And in particular, younger readers more than any other Demographic Group preferred print books. So, the idea that Book Publishing needed to change with this technology, maybe it did some ways but not maybe in ways that people thought, and im wondering first, priscilla, i dont know if you remember that time or the kind of craziness that win along with it, but do you feel that i dont know how much credit you gave to that idea or but what do you think but it now . Do you think any of the predicts likely to pan out and how has that changed your own personal feelings about predicting the future of books . For me i thought, fully terrified to make any predictions. Im still terrified of making predictions. I was then and i am now. Before becoming a become publisher is was a political report sore i learned humility early. I would say that youre absolute lie right. I remember he the chart, and ebooks going straight up and think thats the end of the book store. But what happened is that about five or six years ago that trend stalled, and as you say, physical books continue to thrive. The biggest development, though, is that not only do millenials like physical books, they love audio books. And that has taken off as a genre and that is also very good for publishing because what it means is that you can take a book with you as you vacuum your living room, you can take a book with you everywhere, and that is also frankly at a time when we needed a very reliable source of income, it has turned out to be exactly that. So, the good news for me to me the big headline is so simple, which it people will read are reading more than ever. Theyre just doing it across whole different set of platforms, but this i call it the harry potter phenomenon, everybody thought we were no longer making generations of readers. Well, a whole series of books of that popularity came along and what we have is generation after generation of readers who just changed maybe changed the way they con sum what consume a page but dont change their desire to see something on a page. One of the changes that feels the most urgent right now has been about diversifying the industry, and we just recently have seen the day of solidarity where 1100 Publishing Industry workers took a day to do whatever they felt was necessary to support people of color who were writers or worked in the industry and have exacted some promises, although its always not clear what exactly the promise us will pap out to be from management pan out to be from management about making the industry more representative. Its very white, i think its anywhere from i have in figure right here depending on which survey you look at, its anywhere from 76 to 84 white, where the general population is 60 white, and hispanics and blacks in particular are underrepresented, and im curious, you, brandon, youre a young writer of color, and i dont doubt that you have ideas for books or probably working on one. How is the Publishing Industry look to you from your perspective . Yeah. Its interesting for me because i on the one hand i see that there are certain more Diverse Voices being richard that are out there and those are i think either voices that a lot of people love and el separate celebrate but then when you take a step back you realize everybody is talking about the same few people so it seems like maybe few people get and we have that people are revisiting them right no in spite of all the protested but then you think about all the people who have not been that successful, have not been able to actually break through and when you think boat it, i think its i dont want to sea disheartening as if the industry has not been change but you see how much still needs to change to find writers who not only want to write these stories bull empowered to write the stories. I think one thing ive noticed recently, especially on twitter and probably noticed different campaigns and people are trying to talk but what they paid for books. And its pretty galling to see somebody like roxanne gay got paid 70,000 or something for bad feminist, so shes already pretty well known bit that point and really reflected as as a writer. So you see stuff like that and see people at least ive seep people talk about theyll have an idea for a book project and maybe theyll approach at editor and the editor might say this up sod really good. This astory that needs to be told but i dont if im the person to work on that story which is sort of a double edged sword because on one hand it shows a degree of selfawareness that it important, you dont want to necessarily mess up somebodys work, if its not something you feel comfortable working with, but on the other hand you still need the editors. People who are comfortable working with diverse stories and the stories that maybe make people uncomfortable to edit a become about race and racism but that shows need to make people get to a pound where they feel comfortable and they have the resources to be able to actually do this work. Because is does impact a lot of stories told. And people willingness to tell the stories the think somebody seems to like this book but they seem skittish about tabling it on themselves. So those are just my sort of general observations over the past two to three weeks of oprotests. Do do you feel lying theyre skitishing because theyre white editors dont feel like they understand the issue and the oganic way an editor of color would . I do. I think its a matter seems like its a matter of respect. I dont necessarily want to botch somebodys very pick drat nuanced story bout race, around i think that can also be sort of a crutch so people dont have to do the work required to actually rigor obviously think about the issues theres clearly april tied for people read and consume. Its a disczech between the sort of livedder and disconnect between the sort of lived experience and intellectual experience youre supposed to work with and how do you brim the divide, get white publishers or white editors to feel comfortable throwing their weight behind these stories. Well, one thing that everybody is talking about this week is the fact the paperback bestseller list on amazon is almost entirely the antiracism which is exciting but then you realize, moe of the people who need buying the books are probably white. I dont think black people necessarily need to read about how to be antiracist. So, in a weird way, most of those books are written by people of color but theyre presumably written for still like so much publishing for a majority white audience, even though there are lot of readers of color who are interested in reading about their own democrat fiction about their experiences, and priscilla, what do you think are the most promising or even effective i mean, the industry is innovate budged that far on this, but if of have you seen strategies or policies that seem particularly helpful or promising to you . Basically get more editors the voices. I was going to say to take up where ban don was, the solution to skittishness is to have a diverse imprint. And youre absolutely right that publishing remains one of the most starkly white businesses around, and i guess it has the capacity to be dangerous because presumably books have something to contribute to the culture. So that by definition is not a healthy situation. I mean youre right that the good news is that i just was reading the New York Times bestseller list. The top ten entries, prints and ebook nonfiction, are about race. Thats never thats not happened in my lifetime, ever. It starts with white fragility, number one, number two so you want to talk about race, number three, how to be an antiracist and goes down to our favorite, just mercy and number 11 is michelle. I think i mean, based on what ive seen i dont real the strategy is that the people who have the right nerve endings for the stories should be all of us, i think. There shouldnt be a skittishness about it. But more importantly, we just need to change how we hire. Its really basic. And theres a i mean i dont want to get into detail but theres still a sort of a kind of its on the side to kind of attitude as opposed to its integral to our list. Its not this thing we do over here and that is a big attitude that needs to change. You can correct me if it get this wrong because i havent worked in Book Publishing but my understanding for decades, the economy of Book Publishing ran on the cheap labor of sort of junior staff who came from like the same set of east coast schools who were mostly women, who maybe at a certain point many of them were not even necessarily on a real career track, this is just their little hobby job because their parents were rich but they were doing until the married a stockbroker and that was like the economic model of publishing that your junior staff were beam who did not need to be paid a living wage or to really have didnt need to offer them like the possibility of ever getting one, and it seems like its only gotten worse because the industry is in new york, and its more and more difficult to for anyone on even a middle class income to live there, let alone what editorial assistants are paid, and yet everyone always says publishing is the low margin industry. So i think one of the issues is partly that theres a certain class of people who can afford to work for publishing who can work their way up in publishing. You im assuming you came in at a higher level from journalism which happens, but for people who want to start out kind 0 in the trenches and work their way up they have to be able to police in new york on a pittance for several years at least, and then there arent that many not that much theres in guarantee. Theres not that much space to move up in. So, that limits the candidate pool a lot. Limits by race and limits by [inaudible] im wondering what are some of the measures that can be taken to deal with that . I feel like thats just like a wall that you hit at a certain point. Well, youre right that 70 years ago there was a culture of where publishing was that your entry job was for people who could afford to not make a lot of money. I would say the salaries of entering people are still low, and are still difficult to live on in new york city. If theres one dish if one of the things that come another of the pandemic were suddenly able to expand the universe of where people can live and edit that would be a very good thing. Spoke to brilliant editor today who was let good of his job by another publisher because he wanted to relocate to providence, and i said, youre going to get hired because no one cares anymore where you jet edit your book. So thats the good thing if think the biggest remedy is the change to change the range between the higher salaries and lower. You dont make a lot of money even at my level in publishing, meaning at Vice President level. Its not like working on wall street or at a high level at big ibm type place, but theres still, i think, quite a gap between what entry level editors get paid and part of i think the philosophy behind that is you lilly get train right out of school, trained on the job. So the good news is that what i have seen in recent years is a lot of hiring of nonwhite, very ambitious for books type people who just have to be near a book every day of their life, and theres me pool is getting larger and we are Getting Better at finding those people and hiring them. Well, one promising concept has come out of the organization we need diverse books which started as the childrens Book Publishing which is to sort of help fund internships for people of color and i would hope other lower level jobs so that people can actually afford to get started in the business if they dont come from money. Brandon, i want to ask you what you think what you feel is missing . Youre a younger read he, youre a reader of color. What do you see Book Publishing industry not providing to readers like you. This such a tricky topic. One thing is a need to sort of expand the universe of what kinds of stories people want from writers of color. I think theres often sort of assumption and its not totally inaccurate that the only topic that writers of color are able to talk about are their own lived experiences, and so i feel like beyond sort of the genre of a memoir or collection of first person essays. Seems like thats the only way to break into the industry is like i have to dissect some part of my life or make a part of my life legible for white readers, white audiences. Thats the thing that sells so i will do it. To be able to understand that there are many many things that writers of color card readers of color are interested in besides purely learning about their own experiences. Im not saying its not important but expanding that conversation expanding representation what ive also heard some writers say is just focus only on the traumatic experience as opposed to like its a whole range of abits human lives. They have everything in them. Are you working on a book yourself i guess its not related to not guilty of what i just said. The idea im interested in sort of Whitney Houston as this cultural figure somebody who hasnt gotten this more cultural criticism treatment. Im really interested in sort of looking at how she is somebody, with a lot of ways with her life century was a microcosm of the expectations that we have a black artists also somebody who came in, pop heavy obviously black but didnt want to seem too black. How that change the trajectory of her clearly dumb a career later on. She was booed at the soul train awards. I am really interested in sort of the broader sort of legacy of the effects of mainstreaming on in particular black artists. Im guilty of a little bit of what i just said. It sounds amazing and maybe theres somebody who is listening in who will find that intriguing. [laughter] sounds great. Lets talk a little bit more about technology. Its a lot about technology. What you said this all about audiobooks really struck a nerve with me because ive been writing about them for a while and got into them maybe 10 years ago in a complete addiction for me. Anytime one is on sale, then a ait seems like theres a lot of competition from podcasts. It is a great app called autumn that has top level audiobook readers from encore journalism which is like a dream come true for me. It was interesting at the top of the conversation when you mentioned Millennials Millennials like both i mean the two book clubs joined and started once the pandemic started. One is a Gay Book Club and we are reading, and reading a hard copy of politics the form of a mortal girl, it came out a couple years ago. The other one is the siobhan trenches by andre sally. For me thats an audiobook. Thats the one im looking to winning cooking dinner or cleaning up the house. When you said that people are doing both. Im literally doing both of those right now. Ive definitely seen from some of the younger readers i met this love of the print book like an escape from screens. The ticktock videos of people opening books and turning the pages. Strange ways feels kind of alien to me and fetishizing the fact that its on paper. It clearly is presented as this relaxing escape print sales really did really get a boost during the pandemic. Audiobooks are the book that you read that you can read can multitask. Youre not getting an ear full attention. It will be interesting to see where that goes. The more popular audiobooks become the more significant the performance. Its not just like a simple translation from the page to the microphone. Theres another artist involved. That can make a huge difference. He reads his own book so thats gotta be fantastic. I think we are at the point we can take some questions. . I cant tell . I thought we were at that point but im not getting any ab while we are waiting to figure out if people have questions priscilla comey mentioned audiobooks but what else do you see on horizon in the Book Business . We acquired a book thats going to come out in four different formats immediately. One is an audiobook by audiobook by his Famous Artist of the physical book is gonna show us and then at some point its going to become both a cd and vinyl. Its a book of poetry im only mentioning that because we never would have theres a lot of experimentation need to get its biggest audience. 10 years ago people discovered graphic books. Who knew you could tell that story in a graphic novel or a graphic nonfiction book. Theres a lot of experiments that have at work. At one point when i first joined the business, which is god knows, 12 years ago. Everybody thought, will have ebooks and then in the ebooks will be able to press a button and either make a comment or get an audio or video that will accompany your ebook. They said, no, i just want to book. Let me read the story. The point is that, we have experimented, we continue to experiment. Another thing we tried that didnt work was, an event will happen in the world and lets get David Mccullough to write the historic version of the story and will put it out in ebook you couldnt find those books. People werent interested the good news is we keep experimenting and thats good. We should continue to do that as we did today when acquiring this book. Thank you priscilla, we do have a question now from anonymous attendee, thank you very much. This person asks, as a writer of color are there any good resources for those of us who are interested in one day writing a book but fighting the various entry into the state a little intimidating it depends on where you are. Or belong to a writers book i think writing in itself is isolating and then if you feel like the first step is to build the Community Maybe you need a writer whos published its kind of the way it works partly because partly because theres so many manuscripts floating around up there such a general rule not write qualities that Everybody Needs somebody to help them find a good one. Its usually somebody they know. The thing i would say to do is even though writing is such a solitary activity and you might feel like its just this alone