So boss, you would express an interest in talking about our two years together which we will do, but i have to start at the beginning. Yet such a compelling life story. I would make sure everyone knows all about that. You were born poor, in the segregated south. Everything stacked against you. Tell us what your life was like at the beginning. Well, im not going to if they get too much into this [inaudible] [laughing] it is embarrassing. Its not pleasant, but first of all, thank you all for inviting judge casters and me here. [applause] he is very special to me. He and his wife simone. In fact, all my clerks are. I just spent a week at university of florida with [applause] with catherine whom you just heard from, clerked for both of us. And we had a blast and i also got a chance to spend over an hour with mary wise and gave her on my knowledge of volleyball. That was a delight. But no, seriously, is a wonderful, wonderful opportunity and it gives come it discourages you perspective when you get out of washington that your work is the impact or the effect of your work and how important it is and seeing these young people who were so engaged and so interested in understanding. We were doing the religion clauses which come if you look at our jurisprudence, its a morass. Even that come with that they were engaged and excited about it. So to get back to your question, i was blessed to to have the li have had. I have zero complaint. I was fortunate to be raised by the two greatest people ever,. Things didnt start out thats the beauty of this country, that things can start out and not seem so great, but because this is the land of possibilities and opportunities, it gives us a fighting chance, and it doesnt always work out. My grandfather often said there was no guarantee that you have a chance. And here we have a chance. We had an opportunity to be into indonesia this summer and you see those young kids, so lots of young kids and some of the more distant islands who live the life that i grew up living, right at the edge jumping in the water, just poverty, but unlike here, that was it for them. Their chances were significantly different from being in this country. So i think what i really come as bad as things look, we always were told that we had a chance. The roadmap according to my grandfather was what he was going to teach us. But the thing we had no control over is the fact that we were blessed to have been born in this country and not in indonesia, not in some of the country where the possibilities are limited or the chance of you doing things are less than likely or perhaps improbable if not impossible. He instilled in you a great sense of discipline. Theres a great line in your book in which you say when you move in with him at what, maybe seven or so, he said well, the damn party is over. Well, yeah. It did sound like theres much of a party, that tell us how it ended. Well, he believed that. His view was that, we lived in the tenements, and when we showed up we had not spent much time, i had not gone to school very much. I wanted the street. My brother wasnt in school yet. His view was that, that wandering around was foolishness. He did look at he was a big man and his exact quote, your close come was the damn vacation is over. We always wondered, what was the vacation . Youre living in a tenement. But he saw it as a vacation. He says from now on they would be manders and behaviors and rules and regulations, and thats the way it was. He was also clear, like the old days, that there was a right way, the wrong way, and his way. There were other rules like the teachers are always right. That doesnt work today. The teachers are always wrong. His warning was if you complained about the nuns, who he encouraged to use Corporal Punishment [laughing] if you complained about them, then that would mean that you got an additional punishment. So you could imagine that that was sort of, had a Chilling Effect on complaints. But it was just, you know, i look back at my life. There were things, challenges, but to of had those great people, thats come and do a bad those nuns and two up at the neighborhood. I was walking through my Old Neighborhood with a friend a few months ago, and i had not done that in years. I had slipped away from those who have security concerns, because i should not be wandering through the neighborhoods. But it was absolutely great. You feel like you have escaped. I was telling my friend, it occurred to me that none of the people i knew in that neighborhood were functionally literate, and yet they were the best people that i have known. They were the people who gave us the values. They were the people who saw the possibilities of this country. They with the people who told us we had to get our education. And think of today, of all the negativity that is being said people who have struggles, who are being told that you cant make it, who are being told that the whole world is against you. And my grandfathers view was that you looked at the things that you could do. They gave us hope. They gave us a life of hope. Even though looked around and evidence did not suggest so. Why were they so hopeful . They were hopeful he would always look for things, basic things for which to be thankful. He would say, we had the little cheap porcelain table but we all remember from the generation or if you drop something, pieces would pop up and would be a little black spot on it. But we was set at that table and he would say, look at all we have to be grateful for. We have a roof over our head. We had food on the table and with clothes on her back. There are always those three things. And beyond that he felt that the rest was bonus. You had your health. You had friends. You had a job. Today, think of the litany of the endless litany of complaints that we have. I just think that they give us something that was positive, they gave us, that even under the circumstances that did not particularly look hopeful, they gave you this in the supply of hope and reasons for hope, and possibilities that you create that were there and that you could create for yourself. Your early education, from the nuns, whom you have spoken about, probably at a time where a lot of folks like you were not getting educated in public schools. Was that the start of your now very deep religious faith . I think its, you know, im catholic but everybody around you was religious, even the people who didnt go to church or religious. There was something deeply embedded, that that was an important part of our lives. My grandmother who was a saint, christine anderson, was seven baptist. My grandfather, who did not like a lot of preaching and staying church a long time, even said boy, all the hooping and hollering, im not for that. He became catholic and then he would say things to me because we were captives on the truck when we deliver fuel oil. In those days kids could only be spoken to. You couldnt speak, you couldnt initiate a a conversation. So we would say things like, boy, everything starts with boy. Boy, if god knows everything, why judges to in church more than an hour . [laughing] why does god. We had deep theological discussions two. Under my breath because you did not say anything, when you were a kid, i would say if god does everything, why go at all . [laughing] but notice i said nothing. So you begin studying for the seminary. You went to seminary, begin studying for the priesthood. And then changed course. You tell about, telson anecdotes about hearing, being exposed to some ugly thoughts and statements directed your way. He became what you called in your book and angry black man. So tell us about those years. Those years didnt last as long. I think wheels come off the wagon sometimes. In the late 1960s things were changing in society and it was easy to be angry. Im not justifying it. Im just simply saying that was a part of life. The race issue is a very sensitive issue. It is a core issue with me. One of the hard things about going to the university of florida or going to the university of georgia or lsu or some of these beautiful campuses now is that it remind you of what you couldnt do. I remember making the trip with my wife right after you clerked, to west point, which i have dearly wanted to go to, but there was no way i was going to get an appointment to west point. Its one thing in theory to know that you couldnt go. Its another thing to see the reality of it, to see that beautiful campus overlooking the hudson. Its to go to the university of florida and see those beautiful live oak trees and azaleas and magnolia trees, and know that you could not be there or go to athens. So i think what happened in the late 60s was the realization that no matter how well i did, there was this wall, and that my reaction was not a positive reaction. I was a kid. I was impetuous. So yes, i did become angry. I went off the rails with violent caused additional problems taken with my grandfather that no tolerance for that who felt he had not raised me that way, to be angry, to be better, to be negative. But you know, the good part of it was there was enough residual there were enough residual lessons from my life that brought me back to stability. Its like a vote, a sailboat being pushed to one side but coming back to write. And i think a part of that was what id been taught, it was the faith that had been instilled in me. I truly believe that i never totally got away from the belief that this was the country that you would forever have these possibilities in. I think i found myself wrestling with that. I was almost at war with myself. But that ended in the 70s, and it began the sort of long journey to thinking through why this wonderful country, why this constitution. It raised a lot of questions. You had this inconsistency, you had the race issue which was at war with the ideal. How do we reconcile these two . How do we reconcile finally the contradictions that weve we ald to happen throughout our history . So a lot of what you see, Governor Desantis minchin privileges or immunities clause. Theres an opportunity to reconcile it in the 14th amendment but not when you start reading provisions out. Not when you start pretending things are not there, not when you start pretending we didnt actually have this history. Given out to be obsessed with the negatives that it is there and we have an opportunity, an obligation i think when we see it. You believe the same thing. Weve had these discussions. We have an obligation. The ideal is in this document. Its in the declaration. Its in the written constitution. Its built in this culture for us to move in the right direction but if we dont [applause] i think we allow other people to dominate the conversation in a negative way when we have the Higher Ground with this noble document. So lets talk about the positive. The sailboat rights. You attended, graduated from yale law school. Graduate around maybe age 25, and in less than 20 years you are on Supreme Court of the united states. There were people when you were nominated who said well, he doesnt have much experience. In fact, though i was one of those people. [laughing] well, but, but you had worked in the private sector. You had worked in State Government as an assistant attorney general for jack danforth. You had worked at the federal level in the legislative branch for senator danforth. You had run an executive agency in the executive branch, and you had served on the d. C. Circuit. The amazing sequence of jobs. Do you have a favorite of all those . Favorite job would be working for the attorney general in missouri. My next question, i wasnt sure about the answer to that one. I was pretty sure about the answer to the next one which is, did you have a favorite boss . That would be jack danforth. Tell us about senator danforth. You know, some things are mentioned that, its humbling to hear one of your kids talk about your time in a very difficult job, but the thing that i i learned, i like about jack danforth, member, he and i were never politically outline. I was never much really into politics. He was just a good and decent man. He was a man who never asked us to do things that were unprincipled. Thats what i learned from them. Remember, when it werent for him i was still very cynical. But you watch him, how we treated us, the things that he believed in, that how positive he was, how he was optimistic about our country. Did you have to agree with him on how is going to reach those things . No. But the things i do remember as a politician, he never compromise our integrity. He never asked as to do anything wrong. One of the things i promised my law clerks each year, all four of them, is that when they leave the chambers, they will have clean hands, clean hearts and clear consciousness. Consciences. Its one of the beauty sitting here with you and knowing you work for in two jobs is to know that i can look you in the eye and we never have to lie to each other. We never have to pretend that we didnt do something underhanded because we know we were always aboveboard. [applause] lets talk about your becoming a judge. I had done some things that you have done. I have now gone on d. C. Circuit. I was struck at the magnitude and finality of making a lifetime commitment, a professional lifetime commitment. I did that at age 55. You did it at age 41. It was completely different job from being in the executive branch. How did you decide that you wanted to be a judge and make that great leap of faith . I never really decided i wanted to be a judge, but i did and this for some people will sound odd, but but i wanted toa priest. Youve already made a commitment to do something for life. That didnt work out. I thought about, later on after i regained my ballast to go back in the seminary, but there was one problem. I had a wife. And i kind of like her a lot. [laughing] but you know, seriously, i think that come in the early 1980s when i told you that i changed courses, i left that up to god to determine what he wants me to do, and what hes calling me to do. I stopped making these longterm plans and tried to figure out, to be discerning, what does god want me to do . So thats how i wound up on the d. C. Circuit, and a thought he got me in the fix windows nominated to the court, but he never got me into anything he didnt get out of, and he got me out of that mess. But i but i truly, it may sounda little bit strange, but i never really thought that deeply about it. My view is that if this is what god wants me to do, i being called to do, this is what im going to do. He wants me, if id been called to take an oath to do something, then im going to do it. Its not that complicated to me. Think about this. You and i are not in the middle east at 19 years old fighting for our lives. We have not been deployed. We are not in harms way, and doing a job sitting in airconditioning or the rest of our lives is not the worst thing that could happen to us. And during my clerkship sitting in the very room that ii now occupy as a judge watching on television as american servicemembers were making that commitment. You know, i remember you being very agitated about that. I remember you being very agitated about a lot of things. [laughing] i was young. Called down now somewhat. You know, so judge katsas is unable to, he is who he is, and hes not a pokerfaced person. He would say things like, theres something strange going on in one of the chambers. Theres something really strange. [laughing] and there was. [laughing] or judge katsas also informed me that Justice Marshall had retired. And his arms up, Justice Marshall has retired. And judge katsas also informed me when i thought i had dodged the bullet in being nominated to the Supreme Court. We were at work that sunday sunday morning. Judge, kennebunkport is on the line. Let me give you a hint. If a place called you, do not take the call. [laughing] you took the call. I took it, and you see what happened to me. Worked out pretty well. I struggle with questions about the d. C. Circuit year. I wish i could ask about all the great cases we did, that the fact of the matter is you were not there very long and most of our cases were pretty boring. I thought those were important cases. Okay. Do you have any particular memories of that court . Nope. [laughing] okay. Hes honest. I love the d. C. Circuit. I love you all. I love going out walking for our walks. I love talking about the cases, learning the law and a different way instead of being a policy maker. I thought it was great and i love getting my furniture in that i never got to use. Mine is being installed literally you may get nominated. No. Im much too old for that. One of the most consequential things you might have done that year was a bit of career advice you gave someone. One of my good friends from that clerkship year had decided that he would go back to his hometown in new jersey and go back to an old law firm and start a family and have a very conventional wife. And a Public Interest opportunity popped up and he was not really incline to take it, but he had not definitively rejected it. He had spent some time in our chambers and gotten to know you a little bit, and he came into ask you for some career advice. That person was leonard leo. [applause] and the Public Interest opportunity was to take a job at the Federalist Society. What did you tell leonard . You know, those were wonderful times. You talk about it, d. C. Circuit didnt last long but take about the Lasting Bonds we have made. Leonard asked which job . I asked him, where was his heart . And he said with the Federalist Society. And i said you should go do that. And he did, and look at the difference its made. And that rest is history. [applause] but leonard also then became my first adopted clerk. Of course we have been family ever since from the birth of all of his children to many, many times together, the christening, the baptisms, first communion. He and sally are a dear part of my life. They are yours. Leonard has been very, very special. Lets talk about october term, 1991. Pretty tough year. Yep, didnt have really good law clerks that year. [laughing] that makes it even harder. Amazing to, i look back on what things were like. The whole year, but really especially at the beginning. So justice gets confirmed to the court. He was 43 years old. He was relatively new even as a judge. He had been through a very ugly, training confirmation process. Two of the four of us were new to the Supreme Court and we didnt have the luxury of a summer to learn how to write pool memos. There were all of the accumulated cert worker to do. There was finishing up the d. C. Work to do which we could do because you were not around all summer. Where can you get the chambers stood up two weeks before the november sitting. How in the world did you make that work . I think its a by the grace of god. You know, you were there. We put our heads down and we did it. I