Of 2017, and so i tide that for 13 months before general sessions resigned. Abruptly on the day after the election of 2018 and the president appointed me that day to be acting attorney general and ultimately bridge the gap between Jeff Sessions and bill barr. Host how did you become Jeff Sessions chief of staff. Were you a friend. Guest yes. Talk about hough i only met Jeff Sessions once before i was selected to be his chief of staff. He was i interviewed with him and talked to him many times but it was mutual friend in the white house and at the federal society that had recommended me to him and his people, and we bonded quickly over College Football and our love for good barbecue. So it was a match made in heaven. Host one thing you say aboutmer sessions are p recusal the russia investigation it was personal and factdriven. Guest yeah. I wasnt there when he did the analysis. He took over in february of 2017 after he was confirmed, and after the new administration came in, but having done sort of my own recusal analysis it took five weeks for me and my staff and the department of justice to complete, it is very factdriven. It is very personal decision. Kind of how its done, methodical and i know that general sessions had been very outspoken that he believes he tide the right thing and all i can too and what i describe in this book is how it affected or work at the department of justice and how created kind of two Power Centers at the department of justice. The Attorney Generals Office and you have deputy Attorney Generals Office who for the purposes of the Mueller Investigation was the acting attorney general. So just very difficult to operate in that environment as you can imagine, but also when i was appointed acting attorney general, return to regular order in a normal chain of command like the department is used to. Host and in your book, you write that every american, regardless of personal politics, should be concerned by what i saw happen to President Donald Trump inside the u. S. Department of justice, between 2017 and 2019. What did you see . Guest well, i saw so many things. What i primarily saw was a attempt of justice that at its best was a force for good and for law and order and doing justice, and at its worst was a department that when it didnt follow regular order was not probably predicating investigation is, was glossing over fundamental practices of investigations. For example when there was no evidence or counterevidence was developed, they continued to go down a path and investigate crimes that ultimately as wi saw in the Mueller Report for example, were never established and never was any evidence that supported those investigations. So, again, think one of the reason its wrote this book was to remind professionals at the department of justice, prosecutors especially but also investigative agents, that we need to do always do the right thing for the right reason and follow the time honored practices that have put the department of justice in its place n society and have been unfortunately kind of hurt by these recent chapters that we saw at the department of justice. By no moans i would suggest in any become doesnt try to make the case that somehow this was all people and every investigation. Quite frankly, one reason i wrote this become was to highlight the important work of the great men and women of the department of justice, 110,000 professionals and almost all of them do things the right way without acclaim, and kind of make our country better because theyre involved in the criminal justice system. Host but one of the recuring themes in your book, above the law, is this, quote what berted me most were those member of the executive branch who put their own interests above those of the president. Can you give some examples of that . Guest yeah. I think one example i think is one were all pretty familiar with and that is how jim comey conducted the fbi and how he and members of his senior staff were often times shaping stories in the media. A theres a lot of evidence on the Public Record now of how leaks were made to correct storied that were inaccurate or representations another person, andy mccabe, who leak the story how he conferenced the Deputy Attorney general in the Obama Administration regarding the an investigation. So all that was all sourced from him through lisa page, and i just think theres those examples and other examples of where i really believe that one of the ways we got off the path at the department of justice and at the fbi was individuals putting themselves in their own reputations ahead of the somes of the executive branch, and the he when insay the interests the executive branch i mean the constitutional interest that make our constitutional sim so balanced and work on an everyday basis. Too you believe that theres a deep state . Guest i would have to save i think there are those individuals within the permanent bureaucracy, theyre career officials, that do not believe that in the president s agenda again, its a lawful and ethical agenda and they resisted, small r resisted the implement indication of that agenda. And the nomenclature whether they quoteunquote deep state is kind of for others to decide how to define it. What i saw is i saw people that were not only working against the president s agenda as the head of the executive branch, but those that were unwilling to advance the president s agenda, and it is my point when i say in the back is those people, if they really believed that they cannot accomplish or support the president s agenda, thats as long is a its lawful and ethical which it is, they should run for president based on the world view and i think the president s priorities that we saw at the department of justice were lawful and ethical and everybody that is in the executive branch because of another thing i talk pull out in the book, the unitary executive theory, everybody should pull in the same direction, and i am surprised at controversial as it is but ultimately the American People through the Electoral College elect the president and those president s are entitled to implement their agenda. Host you describe the attitude of some of those people at doj, they view donald trump as a quoteunquote, taping rouse interloper. Host noaa yes, they viewed self of news that way. View it as outsiders, those that are not of washington and of this, i guess, elite world. But this is the beauty of our system in the United States, is that people with good ideas can come to washington, dc, can win elects and try advance the priorities, and i you can tell from the way i describe it, i believe so much in the system and i believe in america and not just sort of the elites that are in our major cities, like washington, dc and new york and other places, but all of us. Were all a part of it and i think one thing that donald trump did, which surprised a lot of people he gave voice to a lot of people that felt forgotten, people from places like where im from, des moines, iowa, where its flyover country, where you really believe that the coastal elites dont understand why you value your way of life, like having a film your backyard and having sort oft above ground pool and target shooting, those kind of things we celebrity and do in places like iowa where im from. Host mr. Whitaker, were you prepared for the media when you came into the acting ad position . Guest im not sure i could have ever expected the attention and the suddenness with which i was thrust on the National Stage. I was ready for the job. I had dump 13 done 13 months a chief of staff to the attorney general. I knew he the department of justice worked and had relationships in the exec afternoon had been a u. S. Attorney for knife and a half year i knew the department of justice very well and its mission and its people. But the media was even though i had been a contributor on cnn and thought that i knew how the media covered stories i was not ready of the amount of reporters following the stories and their insailor desire for new angles, knew breaking news, and just how bitterly partisan it had become, and i do continue to believe that the mission of the department of justice is not political, it is to do justice in every case, and at the same time i would have to say i was surprised by the media spotlight that was that befell me when i became acting attorney general. Host operationally, when the attorney general recused himself from the russia investigation, how does that work in doj and how were you kept up to date on developments . Guest well, i wasnt. Once i became chief of staff to attorney general sessions, the whole office of attorney general is called, oad was recruised at well. So all i knew put the Russian Investigation is what i saw on tv and every night after work i would be subjected to if i wanted to if i cared to watch the news. So i didnt learn anything pout the actual investigation until after i became acting attorney general. Host and when you bill acting, were you briefed into the full investigation at that point by Rod Rosenstein. I was others but not immediate. This is one thing i think we alled in to appreciate about we all need to appreciate about the moment in time i was smart enough to know that if if wanted to it could dominant any every waking moment and there was so much work we are we doing. Obviously the highest profile work we were doing and so much other work so i fraught a u. S. Straight attorney from california, greg scott, kind of a great individual with a ton of experience, not only an elected county da and twotime u. S. Attorney in the Bush Administration with me and now returned in this administration to do it again because he enindividual it so much and was the perfect person to come and and i put him in as my eyes and ears and made him responsible on my behalf to manage expect interact with the mueller team because i knew i could not for various ropes and special live because i didnt want to put that amount of time and attention with Everything Else we had to do and the priorities we had issue needed help and i brought him in to help. Host whats your impression of and interactions with Rod Rosenstein . Guest well, ive nope known the former Deputy Attorney general since 20042005 time frame when we came in as u. S. Attorneys so over a decade. And he has spent he had spent 30 years in the department of justice, an impressive resume and impressive educational background and a lot of experience in the department of justice, and i described in this back kind of my impressions on him. I think the American People saw him again on a National Stage in the hearings last week, and i think he is i dont think theres any doubt that he would say he was doing the best he could in a difficult circumstance. Obviously i have in the book a lot of questions for him especially the decisions he made along the way before i was ever at the department of justice. Host what is the period on this whole thing . Now, judge sullivan that john gleeson investigating the department of justices view on this. When does it end . Guest thats a great question. I think when it ends is when we really have a full accounting of this period of time, and i as i watch sort of the various pieces and parts, whether its the Mueller Investigation, the Senate Issuing new subpoenas to get to at the bottom of it, i think everywhere i go and travel, the first thing folks ask me is, when will anybody be held accountable for this . There are obviously so much of life depends on whether youre cheer fog red team or the blue team. Thats very unfortunately. One thing i try to do is step back and say, kind of if youre a law and order fairmined supporter of justice, then you want certain answers to these questions. So that we can learn the less union think general barr was talking about thats this week, how to some extent the job of the attorney general is to figure out what happened and to make sure it doesnt happen again. So, i think i dont certainly this will be around through the summer. I think john durhams report will be very important. I think what Lindsey Graham is doing in the senate is going to be very important and everyone i think ultimately has to come to their open own conclusions because fairness and objectivity seems to have left our society sometime around 2016. Host and devin nunes wrote the forward to your book. Guest he did and one thing that when we book came out a couple weeks ago, devin nunes pointed out a very important fact that i knew at the moment i was appointed but not sure i articulate it as well as he did and i found myself in this obstruction of justice trap, that was set because really if you look at every moment in time, whether it was in january of 2017 when before thank you Mueller Investigation happened when it was crossfire hurricane, there was no evidence of the collusion theory. You look at sort of the text between strzok and page, the fbi agent and lawyer, they suggest there was no big there there was the text. You look at the Mueller Investigation itself, did not find any relationship between nip from the campaign and the russian get. What we found ourselveses in including myself was an obstruction of justice trap set looking for anyone to interfere with the sort of conduct of the investigation, what became the Mueller Investigation, and i sensed that. Im not sure i articulated it but i send that was as soon as i got brief the first time. Mr. Whitaker, what are the rules that for independent counsel as opposed to a special counsel . Guest yeah. The the independent counsel statute expired in 1999, and thats what ken starr was appoint under famously and that was a statute, oversight of judges and separate from the department of justice and didnt really have a local for the executive branch. I think people saw what happened to bill clinton in the whitewater investigation and i think it was almost bipartisan agreement that we dont need that to happen again to the way it happened. And so in an attempt to not have the repeat of that, of the ken starr investigation, the department of justice passed a regulation that called the special counsel regulation and that governs what bob mueller was appointed, Pat Fitzgerald in the Scooter Libby prosecution was also appointed under that statute, i believe, and it has been used from time to time where the independence of the department of justice and executive branch, it could be put into question, and its a little its very discretionary but it puts protection in the firing of the special counsel, makes is sort of be for cause instead of just at the will of the discretion of the department of justice and ultimately the president. So it is something that i think is as i outline in the book unconstitutional and i think should be eliminate or dramatically reformed and i set out a couple of ways that could happen weapon have 93 u. S. Attorneys in the United States that all do their job every day with great discretion and great judgment, and i think an times, as you see both general sessions and general barr do is appointing u. S. Attorneys not only to continue to do their own job and to die dissecrete function in the department of justice to make sure that theres insulation and investigations and also to make sure that they continue to report 0 to and be part of the executive branch. Host i should have asked you this before with start but as the acting attorney general, do you get the horrific or the title of general whitaker as well . Guest people give that to me. I dont know if its something yusef but i have been called matt, matthew, hey you and been called general. So it was an honor of a lifetime to serve to this administration and serve as sacketting attorney general. One thing i dont get is a painting in the department of justice so thats that is certainly something that doesnt come with the office. Host okay. Matthew whitaker, was Robert Mueller well utilized . Guest i really think that what happened and one subject i talk about in the book with bob mueller is that we all saw with our own eyes him testify and i think there was a a lot of hopes and dreams put into his testimony, that would be would turn this sort of 400 plus page report into television event, bring to life and make a movie out of the become, and obviously we saw that he did not seem to have command of a lot of his investigation. Ive never i know that when i set s. A. T. To front the Judiciary Committee if i answered request question if i take your can he and then waited to another question responsible saying that statement, i think most people would have been baffled like we were. He is a leader, a marine, a decorated vietnam veteran, who has obviously served more than ten years in the fbi as its director, u. S. Attorney, has been he has done everything use do we attempt of justice with distinction. Said a lot of positive thing weapons he was appointed as special coup and i sill believe that today put i think he was taken advantage of by his staff. That product that is the Mueller Report is not a product that he wrote. Think it was written by people that wanted to score political points and too bat and its something i criticized in my book, and i think could have been done a different way and seem gratuitous. What did you learn but doj oversight of the fbi . Guest well, jude to say when i was the United States attorney before i ever came to washington, dc that the fbi was nominally part of the department of department of justice and i think one thing that Everyone Needs to make sure we do and continue to do is to have the fbi director follow the proper rep