But as you know, im a big fan of yours. Is a huge fan of your first book on google. An audi come back at this particular moment talk about facebook on the inside story couldnt be more timely. And just going to start off. We have lots of places to go with his been going to start off with something timely. Literally this morning as we came to the show you heard about the hacking of twitter. The fact that truth is now going to facebook to get his message out. And facebook is a lot of criticism for a lot of things for the years. I actually wrote a column recently really questioning why Mark Zuckerberg is not fact checked the president s. Tilt your take on this. What is this relationship between facebook and the white house. Free speech and im just going to throw you a question there to start you off. Thank you for doing this is good to connect with you again in a virtual city. So like a lot of things, you cant just tease out one problem the facebook. From his dna and its origins. In the case of trump, obviously he wasnt a factor in the early days. They talked about in the dorm room when they started it. But by the time the Truck Campaigned on rolling in 2015, this became an issue for facebook. It was sort of them is a way it dealt with controversial content. And i up in 2015 claim posted stuff that was anti muslim. And actually did violate a lot of people inside facebook. The companys Community Standards but facebook decided not to mess with that. Even though it mightve violated the standards, because it was newsworthy and they were going to tamper with that. And zuckerberg started along the path they was really very explicit right now is that he believes that politicians should be able to say whatever they want so the people can judge them by their speech. Even if it is harmful speech. And as time goes on, is become tougher and tougher for facebook to defend because it becomes a bullhorn for toxic speech. And thats the point that he paid paid himself into. Rana so interesting. In recent months, a lot of the Big Tech Companies have decided to take a different tack on this. This is been a very big issue and im curious what i wrote my own book, though be able. I really focused on the old. And it was the carveout from the mid 1990s. They gave the platforms. Just these tiny start of. The freedom to be or say what they want. And to not be held liable. For steve crated the old os journalists. These are giant media companies. So im curious as you really dug into this issue both in a previous book google but on this book on facebook. When you come out. How should we think about them. Steven i think the 230 yes as you mentioned, the regulation, law was passed in 1996. Really way before we had these giant platforms. I actually dont think that is the main issue here. Main issue is what is one of these big platforms or any of them going to do to make a safe environment or their users. And think to 30 gives them the opportunity to do that. And theres a question to where they draw the line to do that. A zuckerberg boy says that you want me. To be the arbiter. The speech which is now 3m people. Now is not the ideal one but the fact is he felt this platform and is the arbiter. Hes the person has to decide with the verbal line is and what cant be sent on his platform. This is toxic. It will make people feel uncomfortable. Were not going to have pornography on here. And were not going have misinformation about important things like anti tax information. I took facebook longtime demand. And about voting. Or things like dog whistles. That trump quite often since else. And it certainly makes people uncomfortable. It makes the platform somewhat toxic. It is a tough line to broth. But thats what he builds. Any stone up to that. So that really is the issue in fact is hes not doing a great job of it because the more the speech is exposed, it just feels wrong. And he is more and more it. This way he is constantly taking these little many steps back but is confronted with the consequences of where his decisions are at any given moment. Rana only come back to disinformation. And free speech and election. First i want to note that of the beginning of your book because it painted this picture need to this i will have say. Youre always kind of getting right in peoples lives and getting the details we also painting this big picture. The picture painted was a duck in africa would be sort of a touring entrepreneur around him. Almost seeming in the antidote to meet like the head of state. No way think about this on the thing about facebook. The point at which you decided you wanted to write about facebook. And now we know theyve got more users than the largest countries in the world in many cases pretty these companies, facebook in particular, always seem like a Super National entity. Not think about is money in history, and did you find that. What does that mean. Devlin on that. And you mentioned, i decided to write facebook from the inside story when zuckerberg posted in 2015, the end of summer that Million People have logged into facebook. And they got the users in the 24 hour. And as you mentioned, the total membership of facebook even back then, was larger than any country. Now the logged in, bigger than any country approaching 3 billion people and when i started actually doing the book, the cooperation of no Strings Attached. Speech of all hear about that. We will come back to that pray prayed. Steven which africa training and he was like that of state and came to africa from italy. We met with the prime minister. He met with the pope. In this what you would expect Mark Zuckerberg to do. He came to facebook on a state visit. And facebook as a foreign policy. It was like the head of state. It is like some sort of god about nigeria. They have a very active community. A tight community of entrepreneurs. An incoming there, it was a surprise visit. News like this little start of community. I realize later it was kind of a like facebook. Because a few months later, the 2action occurred. Those big flip prayed and went from this repaired company, did have a lot of issues, but from that point on it was not the answer that were all of the things that it did that were toxic, and it stole peaches the tension and data. In privacy. And flipped the book became the exercise in understanding how that happened. And even the childhood of mark to understand how this thing happened. For starters i can relate his mother that is it something when your story changes in the middle of your book cycle. In have to scramble. Steven and i got to munson into the advantage of facebook. And interviewing the people of facebook. And while this things happening. While the companys reputation was unraveling. And watching that process. In real time. Rana what did you learn about Mark Zuckerberg and his childhood. That this could inform or help us understand it where the company is today. Steven i talked to his parents and his mother told me the story which im really resonated with the way facebook unfolded. He grew up in westchester county. Writing a nice suburban rated in a Public School that he went to, didnt have a whole lot of advanced or great Computer Programs. So he wanted to go to a private school to get a better Computer Program and take advantage of the classes and enhance classes. And conquerors like alexander the great. This telling of itself. His mother wanted him to go to a nearby private school where he could commute. Eldest sibling in the family is going off to harvard that year. She didnt want to lose to kids the same year. But he heard about the program in exeter. Anyone would require reporting. And he wanted to go there. And she said listen, when she just interview the people there and maybe you will like it. And he said line going to interview the people. I will do that but im going to the other school. And that reminded me a lot in the decisionmaking and i have learned took place on facebook through all of history where quite often something would come up and maybe it wasnt good for the kids or some sort of thing. And we would say this is right, this is morally wrong and he was a, but lets go do it. And i thought were going to exeter. Rana he went there. Steven thats where he first became familiar with program of facebook. Of the context of it. The idea that when he makes his mind up, thats it. And since he has total power of facebook, he controls the majority of the voting stock. Even the board of directors cannot overrule him. When he says lets do it, they go to exeter. Rana that is fascinating. Speaking of total power. Im thinking about this wonderful antidote about the eyes of sauron. [laughter]. Tells about the eyes. Steven particularly when he was younger, had this habit. He is unbelievably unnerving. You can ask him a question and he would not answer it. You just arent you. I think human beings have to blank. Its just sort of an issue by health. But he seems to defy that sometimes when he looks at you. And a lot of people have the same problem. The first time i met him in 20 oh six. I asked him several questions about facebook and how many students are enrolled and sent etc. And he would just look at me in. He would not answer the question. And i thought what is going on here. I in the twilight zone. I got better at minimizing that over the years but every so often, the stair prayed and one of his lieutenants, described as a guy of sauron. [laughter]. Stated that is really something. You mentioned roger mcnamee. Was also source for me. I am urged him to write a book. Its interesting. Steven marks zuckerberg with thinking for that. Rana exactly. When i first met Roger Cummings interesting. He was going out into the media. For those of you dont know him a veteran venture capitalist. An investor and loss of important technical monies. In an early mentor to mark. An elevation had a fake, was a through elevation. Steven roger invested personally. And later elevation and put money in it. But roger benefited greatly from its in a way initially that his company did not predict. Rana so is interesting. So he was out really talking and guesses on book to the media against it. At that stage and he said look i became concerned pre 2016 about what i was saying on facebook. I feel there is something wrong here. He apparently wrote a letter to mark and cheryl. This is sort of like your highly humble. He was coming to you saying hey guys, they may have a problem. And apparently, they went very corporate pr up on him very quickly. Shut him down. Hard for me to metabolize how someone can get the information from a trusted figure and not take it more seriously. In your reporting, what conclusion did you come to this pretty. Steven facebook really downplayed the degree of which project was an influence. In a look into this. And in rogersville, but he gives a more accurate account of the degree of his influence in facebook. Maybe some of the media appearances he did. They kept him described as zuckerbergs main mentor. Was i dont think if you can into the wall, he wouldnt claimants. His overall overblown. The privacy officer, they did connect roger with mark and he did have a meeting with him window who was going to buy facebook and he didnt have a role, the soul but among others in helping connect people to facebook. But by the time he was complaining, he invaded in the picture. It is not a regular advisor. Its a basically were getting a letter from someone who maybe was important in the early days of facebook but now wasnt someone who was in close contact with. They felt comfortable sloughing off his concerns rated and dan rose another partnership was there. And they sort of things that he was complaining about or indeed under discussion facebook but facebook had already decided that it was going to not doing thing about this disinformation that was circulating in 2016. It wasnt a new thing that he was bringing up. And they already had made that decision. And roger was right out but it wasnt like roger was saying that heres something that you dont know about. They knew about it in they had already decided not to know anything about it. So the misinformation was happening during the election. By and large helped trump and hurt clinton. Rana you think, going deep on this. What made them think that decision. That is a big decision vertically for either another liberal or libertarian but that is a big decision to say, we see this were not going to do anything about it. Steven so you have to reconstruct the frame at 2016. Three things are happening. With election on facebook. The first is the trump is using facebook in the way it is supposed to be used. Almost better than anyone else as in history. Boswell as i mentioned earlier, he told me that he was in awe of it. And eight shared with during the course of the book. It is beautiful. And essentially the Trump Campaign played facebook. In the clinton people played it like a cardboard enjoy it like you see in the street. The Trump Campaign accepted and it helps shall than the ends announce of how to use it. The b of a better one. They did thousands of ads every day. On hundreds of thousands. And then the Clinton Campaign did not use it will dull. So that was part one. Part two was his misinformation. People found they can make money by publications and fake stories. And there were basically made clinton look better criminal. She was running a child trafficking ring and pizzeria in washington. And they thought they could get people to go to some page, financially motivated campaign. The third was russian involvements. In the signal think had as much exposure to users as a Misinformation Campaign that there are hundreds of thousands of people this all the stuff. And super disturbing but the russians were using facebook to help battle with an election. This article enrolled facebook, really late. And really didnt come across until after the election. Then we can talk about how they treated it then. The second thing, there is a big debate about facebook. At one point there was a meeting about a weekly meeting. In the person really was running that many, was his kiting jewel was head of the dc operation. In his dna was he was a republican. And a lot of people the Washington Office he feels his job was to carry the water for the republicans. Had a very close relationship and use the danger college. And this is the guy was pulling back from the tough. They had from when her husband died. She was back then read but think things shifted were people took on responsibilities during the period and they were pretty much operating with more authority. Anyone the argument that they shouldnt do anything about the misinformation. He said that would be testing the Playing Field by helping one candidate by removing the misinformation. That was wrong. It is the Playing Field was tilted by the misinformation. In the leveling it by taking it out. But when the day. And the rest is history. Rana lets talk to the relation post 2016th. Then you get deep into the scandal as well. How did you view all of those characters. Steven i think it was an amazing story and of itself. And it tells like a story i like a clown show. And it was in a way comedy in some sense of and on facebooks part. Theres like crazy characters involved. And it led it to her became the biggest scandal and got narrative in facebooks history. You can argue that this is the limit of the most traction. I believe the scandal happened not in 2018 or 2016 during the election or in 2014 when they got the information of maybe 8 million Facebook Users. But in 2010 facebook giveaway information about users to developers. And that meant when a Facebook User signup to use some survey application for thirdparty, they would get that developer, natalie the information so that person signed up with that persons whole social network on their friends. They could argue the users signed up for surveys responsible because she Click Software he clicks off, some little roleplay saying theyre going to look at your information. But theyre giving the information also on the friends who have no idea. So people Facebook Family complained to zuckerberg. They said this is too much. We should not who didnt do this in tech work went ahead and did that. And that api as it was called, wait to dig into facebooks databases. An open up in 2010. So they close that loophole in 2014. By then, its china lytic that could get access to that. But you can get that information by seemingly doing the survey. So thats how the information fell into the hands one of the biggest funders on the far right have been ted cruz in the donald trump used it in the election. Rana are you worried that facebook and have an effect on november. Steven will facebook will have an effect on november. Rana while the me put it more dramatically. You worried they could reelected donald trump. Steven again, which parts of it is he going to use. I think the Biden Campaign is going use facebook better than the Clinton Campaign did. Not going to dismiss it like that. They know it happened in 2016. But the Trump Campaign, had a big head start in collecting the data from 2016 and building on it over the last four years. Now facebook has indicated that considering cutting off political advertising. And if that happens, that will be a giant win for the Truck Campaign because they have this big lead the Biden Campaign he never close if they stop the campaigning. Rana cutting off physical advertising or labeling it, this is all part of the conversation which gets into an economic conversation about the black box from the fact there incredible information asymmetry on the sides of these transactions. To try to at this deeply my own book. He is a remind me so much of the Financial Sector in 2008 where youve got these large entities that have all of the information in the person on the other side of the transaction does not have the same amount of information. Adam smith 101, markets dont work properly or fairly if theres not equal access to information, shared understanding of the transaction and the value of what is being exchanged. Honey think about that. And what stars to delve into the