We Work Together when we were in washington 18 hours a day and there was almost no opportunity to no trust the people. What a remarkable story. You arrive never having been here born in india, granddaughter of the British Police officer, remarkable mother and father. Tell us a little bit about immigration that has been the policy that has infused your public service. Lets start with a little bit of what that was like. You say youve landed in the airport with two suitcases and that was it. Guest thats right. Thank you for taking the time to do this. It is a pleasure to be able to have an indepth conversation with a colleague, something we just dont get to do. I landed here two months before i turned 17. I came by myself. My dad had about five bucks in his bank account and he used of all to send me here because he believed this is the place i was going to get the best education and have the most opportunity. I show up at jfk airport with my two suitcases. We didnt have any money to pay for more baggage and i just remember, and i write about this in the buck, how strange it was to see first walmart the diversity of people i was used to seeing. Its pretty diverse in the grand scheme of things. A lot of physical displays of affection i wasnt used to seeing, mcdonalds and burger king, which you sort of dreamt about when you were in indones indonesia, but they hadnt made it to that part of the world debt, and then of course, just being in a completely new place, you know, with a completely new environment not knowing if you were going to fit in, how you are going twere going to fit in. I was a georgetown graduate here in the Nations Capital and i remember when i landed at georgetown and i went to the board Student Office to get my information and they said, i said something about a foreign student with not having my assignment. A guy that was well meaning i think all he heard was foreign student and he stopped what he was doing and said do you speak english. I remember being so surprised by that and said jokingly, while, i do, but only if you talk very slowly. [laughter] so, that was the beginning of my entry into the United States, and i dont think i could have ever dreamt i would be sitting here talking to you as a member of congress. Host yeah, absolutely. It is an intimate portrait and i would encourage people to read the story to see how somebody arrives at the age of 17 for the first time ever, the evolution that results in that first becoming a member of congress. One of the reasons this conversation is going to be fun as they were the leader of the progressive wing of the Progressive Party and by the new Democratic Coalition the more centrist wing. One of the things that was fun about your book is for the stereotype progressive they have to grapple with the fact you went to visit a school school, n wall street and medical device corporations. That is a wonderfully rich portrait of how the world is more complicated than the politicals. Types. Talk a little bit about that and having worked in the private sector how you think about the issues that affect the private sector. Guest that comes from my dad got ibm. He said youd either be a doctor, lawyer or engineer. Those are the acceptable options. Politician wasnt one of them and so when i went to college i got a degree in economics and somewhere along the way decided i wanted to be an english literary nature with the one phone call that i had to tell him i was going to be an english major and he screamed at me and said you know, i didnt send you to the United States to learn how to speak english. You already know how to speak english. So i promised him that i would get the same job with an english degree that i would have gotten within economics degree. At that time, this was the mid1980s, mike milken was king, wall street is the place he wanted to work if you were smart and competitive, that is the thing you tried to do so i went to work on wall street in investment banking, i did a lot of things go 20yearold should ever have done. Frankly representing companies into bankruptcy proceedings and working on leveraged buyouts. I realized it wasnt for me but one of the things i tell people a mentor all the time is it important to find out what you dont want to do just as much us to find out what you do want to do and also the skills you gain along the way you are invaluable. Anybody can put a spreadsheet in front of me. I work on very complex 300 page spreadsheets before exile was a thing back in the lotus 123 days, and i could find the errors. I understand financial statements, went to get a masters in business, worked on economic development, sold medical defibrillators in ohio and indiana, and i feel like every single one of those things that made me better prepared for being in congress, because i think just as hard as they were employing, you know, people think about a progressive as being somehow completely divorced from business, not understanding economics but i dont think those portrayals are true. But i think people are always surprised to hear about my background. But its really helped to inform my view of wall street accountability and main street and about what actually makes good economic sense. What is pragmatic and practical in my world is based on how i think about what the future looks like from an Economic Perspective as well as a social perspective. Host it was an interesting biography. I worked at a bank for a while and i was 22 when i was doing that. [laughter] guest a whole two years older than me. Host i agree with you 100 . I cannot like you, enjoyed that. I felt like i was learning a lot. A lot of the negotiations, but selling skills if you will i did learn in the private sector. But then you make a wonderful transition and this allowed us to transition to the issues that i think really animate your book. Youre not satisfied, youre not feeling that sort of soulful engagement but in the private sector you go against and get a cab on the river but now all of a sudden, the whole process of immigration you say in the book you understand what drives. So lets talk about immigration because that is so much of your story and of course it is apt the core, not the policy debates that we sort of play defense against a president who has come as i tell my constituents come hes created this redhot core of anger and baloney quite frankly, describing immigrants as criminals, you know, given where youve come from, given this book that is in the debates with morality you probably saw on our own experience, here we are at a moment we are probably having the most dysfunctional conversation about immigration that i can remember, so i know 9 11 was important to you, but what gets you so passionate about the moral immigration policy . Guest when i was in thailand, and this was the summers between graduate school i had this opportunity working for three months for the largest nonprofit, and i happened to go to the largest refugee camp at the time, mostly refugees from cambodia and laos, and it was a stunning experience for me, deeply moving to see people fleeing. There was a bomb in the camp just days before i arrived, so it was still a very active camp in that sense. Most of the people thought they were going to be there for a short time before they would be able to get permanently settled again, coming out of the war, losing children, losing families, and you just see the resilience people have and how difficult life is for people is getting terrible, terrible economic situations, drought, the war, and it was the formation i dont think i thought about it as immigration or migration i the moment. I thought i was just experiencing what was happening but it was definitely a core piece of how life related to the immigration when it was about other people, because my experience as an immigrant, as everything you said, but it wass reflective to be cognitively privileged as hard as it was. I spoke the language, i went to college, all these Different Things that allowed my experience to be easier than most of the people i worked with. Later, when i switched from the private sector, i worked in International Health and development for several years running a fund, and i worked over the world can iindia, africa, asia, latin america, everywhere. And again, i saw the sort of challenges that was the root causes of migration. Thats always been my orientation is how do we think about immigration in terms of the root cause. Then when 9 11 hit, i started thinking about it from the perspective of being an immigrant here in the United States, what is our policy needs to be in became very ensconced in that and what became the largest Advocacy Organization in Washington State. In fact, many of our policies along with california for immigrants to live, and i think a lot of it is because of the work that we did over the last two decades to preserve dignity and rights the opportunity for everybody, and so i got to know the policy detail of immigration, too. I talk about in the book how there is such a lack of nuance to the debate about immigration in this country when in fact the immigration system is so unbelievably complex, and everybody has a story to tell unless you are native american and of course if you are African American you are blocked unwilling so its a different situation. But everybody else has a story to tell. The moral core of the identity of every nation of immigrants we could explain to the American People how they have not had a system of immigration law. Weve had a few here and there when a president and congress has managed to move a complete overhaul for word, but its been decades. Our system hasnt been fixed in decades. Theres been no major change and that is unattainable for a country that has such deep Economic Needs hi of such deep societal and familial needs and whose identity is focused on the role of immigrants into building our country. Host that is absolutely right. One of the things to the president s point of view which i think is a key point of view and we will come back to the policy that its just built on lies. As you point out, we are a nation of immigrants. Business people say when you dont even take the moral approach they will tell you it is absolutely essential to have more robust immigration. A programmer at Washington State and of course an agricultural worker in folks unseen and seeig ironically but ive seen in our restaurants [inaudible] so, describe for us because it isnt hard to look at the current mess, and it is a moral mess that we will come back to the family supervision because i think that is in moral terms, but describe what you think this is your thing and has been for decades if you were to wave a magic wand and the immigration policy would change overnight, what would it look like, and how does that compare to the bill . You were not here in washington yet come up with a bill passed what was it, five or six years ago the senatorial votes and there was a difficult process for the 11 or 12 million undocumented this country has had a chance to sort of identification and verification, all sorts of thing but it got 67, 68 votes in the senate. So, tell us your view of a good immigration policy and how does that compare to what got through the senate in this bipartisan manner fiva bipartisanmanner fi . Guest i was on the outside pushing for that and it had a lot of compromise but frankly not all of us liked, but it had a major component. The key thing to think about here a lot of americans will say because of what the president said our people before the president , its been taken to a completely new level in demonizing immigrants, something no other president before him has done in the same way in recent history that the first thing people say you should get in line. You have to understand there isnt a line in the United States, there is no system for people to even come here legally and i will give myself as an example. He said my entire life but it took me 18 years to get my citizenship. I came in on a student visa and so the first thing we need to do is rectify the system so there are actually prophecies that are easy for people to navigate whether you are coming here on a business visa, to join families, or whether you are coming here to work temporarily or via student. Those quotas that were set three decades ago, those need to be completely updated. In addition to that, that allows you to have a functioning system going forward. In addition to that, you have to provide a pathway to citizenship for the 12 million undocumented immigrants are here. These are folks who primarily have been living here for 15 to 17 years, decades. It is hypocritical for us to say they shouldnt be allowed to stay when in fact, if they were all deported, first of all it costs the taxpayers an enormous amount of money and secondly, if they all left, the entire economy would collapse. So, lets recognize we havent had a system that has allowed them to do the work we need to do. They are americans in all ways except that so give them a path to citizenship and allow them to come out of the shadows and people contributors and understand when they do that host which by the way is the position today that because of the way President Trump talks about the undocumented, that concept a mere half decade ago had potential republicans apart because they understood if nothing else, the food supply chain, farms, meatpacking plants simply dont work without the population. Guest thats right. Insight of what trump has said, but you said iwhat you said is. There is still substantial support for a path to citizenship. Its kind of amazing given the demonization of trump has done. But they are staunch republicans in Eastern Washington and central washington. The businesses, the chamber of commerce, there is the sense that we need a path to citizenship and comprehensive and humane reform just as it is clear to those that might get there for different reasons. But for everybody, people understand we need to fix the system. And third, i would say we need to make sure we have humanitarian ways for people to continue to see the United States as a beacon of hope and light. So, our asylum processes, the Refugee Resettlement, this is another area that is traditionally been bipartisan support. Speakespeaker pelosi always liko talk about the evangelicals who call the Refugee Resettlement program the crown jewel of humanitarianism. So, i think that this is another place where donald trump has destroyed everything that has to do with people seeking refuge. He is absolutely shut down the Refugee Resettlement program. He shut down the Asylum Program are merely taking any. He shut off all illegal ways for people to come, so we should be clear. The opposition isnt just to the undocumented immigrants. Its all legal immigration. Thats why h they tried to ban student visas on the people that were here on student visas. Thats why hes tried to shut down illegal immigrant programs for people who are coming here to work, h. One b. , spousal visas, roll back all of that. Lets be clear, his agenda and the agenda of Stephen Miller and others around him in the white house is no immigration, and this country will die without immigration. That is clear. Host i agree with your statement that probably no president has made immigration such a toxic part of their approach. Sadly, however, this is at some level same old same old. Chinese immigrants were talked about in the late 18 hundreds come absolutely brutalized and dehumanized on the west coast and of course thats been the experience in every wave of immigrants, the irish catholics, mediterranean, sherman and Northern European immigrant immi mean, this is sadly a very strong recurring theme, and its ironic because as you point out how all of us start somewhere unless we are indigenous to the continent. Lets try to get behind the policies of politics. On some level that sort of absurd that this country says its value is all about immigration and all this stuff but for 240 years practically this country has also been absolutely brutal to the latest wave of immigrants. Whats going on there and how do we change that because if we dont, there will be a demagogue that decides to become the latest wave. How do we change that . Guest we have to change the policy, and it requires doing it in spite of what people say. Every Immigration Reform thats happened has happened with tremendous resistance, and get the president that has overseen not have actually moved it forward despite any concerns that he might have about what the reaction might be, because it is what is good for the country and in some ways that is what happened with civil rights and what happened with every difficult transition that the country has to make. You dont wait for people to get the full place you just do it appropriately so that you remove that obstacle, but a political football from the field. Because lets be clear, it will continue to divide us. Youre right america has had a complex history with immigrati immigration. I talked about it in the book. Its sort of a lovehate relationship. And i think that that has to do with the fact that fear of the author caother can be used and t in Donald Trumps playbook, fear of the other. So, our work has to be for people to reconnect with our immigrant history. The policy is not hard. We have crafted policy around this over and over again. We know exactly what we need to do in the bipartisan no. I would change some things about it today because weve moved on from where that is, but i will say that the way that you secure the United States and preserve our National Security is actually to have a functioning immigration system where you can keep track of everyone that comes in. Its easier for people to come and go out. We have circular flow of migration which was very popular in earlier decades but has gone away. You dont build walls and bridges. Uganda borders that are secure, but they are secure because you have systems that allow people