Washington post columnist and thriller writer and then the Pulitzer Prize winner last month and this month we are joined by jeff shaara military historical fiction author. Ranging from the American Revolution to the korean war and we will talk about all those in just a minute but we will start with a facebook comment that a viewer has posted on our facebook page. What exactly is historical fiction . Guest i have had this conversation with other authors it is an accurate historical setting but the people are totally made up thats a little different from what i do because i take you to these places with a lot of the real people with historical figures with names that you know like George Washington or Dwight Eisenhower were robert e. Lee it is fiction by definition because i put words in their mouth. My job is to tell you a story and not just do a textbook or names dates places facts and figures but to put you in the hands of the characters to tell you the story the way they would tell it by a definition that has to be fiction you are hearing dialogue and part of that draws from the historical record but that is my job to fill in the blanks. If ive done my homework and research absolutely accurate. Thats my job. And then number of authors who write alternative history and the germans win in world war i. With that speculation to do that. My job is to make it accurate and at the same time make it a good story. Host do you consider yourself a historian . No. Any academic historian will say no you dont have the credentials. I have a phd in history but to me that is an advantage for example i didnt have a professor at Florida State tell me who robert e. Lee is so i dont carry these lessons with me i have to start with scratch on start from scratch this is much more interesting and fresh then reciting something i could of learned in school years ago. Do you use original sources . Those are key to the research. Its my job to go back biography in modern history books dont do me any good and biographers object to this but a lot of biography you get a take on who the character is unable argue that with you but if you have 50 different biographies of abraham link and you get 50 different versions. So all my research whenever possible original source material memoirs, collections of letters getting into the head of the character i have to get to know the character. Thats a personal thing so very definitely the research is as personal as i can make it. Host you do use characters but what about lucy spencer or private rightly . Are those real people . They are composites. Generally. Its very rare like the example of the g. I. Who is everywhere i need him to be to tell the story. Thats not to say i make it all up that typically a start with a real figure and then as a do the research i find out more information and i make a composite into this one character so he can still tell you the whole story everything happens its all accurate maybe not just to this one guy. Lucy spencer is an excellent example. I love that character the siege at vicksburg with the union army is teaching but the problem for the people is they are trapped with the Confederate Army thats really the first time i had a significant civilian character with a point of view very different from your general now you have a girl who was 19 years old and learns a lot about war and the gruesome list of what happens to people and the sacrifice. That was a very different take. I have four diaries from four different women at vicksburg who were there. To me that is a treasure and thats how the character of lucy spence comes about. Host first lets talk about the theme i picked up reading. Number one the recurring character it could be robert e. Lee or Winfield Scott. I love Winfield Scott. Many people never heard of him which is a tragedy. First of all born 1788 in the war of 1812 he is a Brigadier General and starts the war in 18 oh seven he arrests a couple of british people who are not supposed to be in a cause a big diplomat extinct but the british are upset. But by the 18 forties he is the commanding general of the United States army and the grand old man and when the mexican war begins scott is the leader of our troops in the field. What that means for history who the troops in the field are all these troops out of west point are all names that you know jonathan jackson, Ulysses S Grant george pickett. On and on. And then one in particular robert e. Lee in a blue uniform and Winfield Scott teaches him how to be a soldier thats a fun story to write because its a story nobody knows. Host another theme is politics in the military. I really dont like politics. Im not political innocents and people have said to me nudge nudge wink wink are you really talking about today like dwight out on eisenhower . Know. No. Not at all. But yes there is politics in every war. Who fights the war . Know. The people fighting it have very little to say. Winfield scott is in mexico purposeful cuts himself off from communication from washington they cant stand each other so scott wants nothing to do with washington marches in land and could care less what anybody in washington saves on says. Is harder to get away from that now that to add a third dimension. Host from the American Revolution to the korean war the role of washington dc . Who was it named after . George washington. Every school child learns hes the father of the country. Okay but what does that mean cracks i know what it means i have no respect for George Washington as a leader in a commander of the troops and then the president. Theres a reason hes on the dollar bill i have enormous respect for this man but beyond that he go to the mexican war president polk tries to run the show from washington but that doesnt work. At the time of the civil war it is congress with the senators and representatives, they leave first montgomery then to richmond to create the confederacy and because its on the border the first battle of the civil war at manassas right across the Potomac River and also is arlington today a big pillared house at arlington cemetery. Washington is right smack in the middle when the civil war begins and all the way down the line getting to world war i and world war ii and George Marshall here and eisenhower in europe. You have the break to get to the 20th century washington can play a greater role than they could in the 19th century. Host there is a theme behind military successes a lot of failures. There are Different Reasons for failures. Lack of confidence, ego, narcissism, the cure on terrible character traits not just military but everywhere. But looking at these characters and the generals like the civil war, having people like grant or sherman in the confederates but then Braxton Braggs and men whose ego and personality get in the way of them doing their job when their bad things men die uselessly. Thats the reality and a part of the story. Host does it wear on you after a while . Yes. Definitely. And i will say talking about specifics but my last book the frozen hour is about korea. Its not a happy story. I talked to a number of veterans in the advantage of that story i can see it in their faces and feel it in their words the way they talked, that tragedy and what they went through 65 years later is still a part of who they are whether it is simply the memories of the guy next to him and what happened to him, he got to the point the emotion was very difficult. Im not blood and guts type of guy that it is a part of the story nobody really wants to read page after page of blood and guts are has to be humor and drama. And laughter is such an important part that by the end of the day by the time i finish the book i was wore out emotionally. I took a break for six months and didnt do anything. I had to separate myself. What im working on now is much less of war story with the cuban missile crisis but i just needed Something Different it took more of a toll on me than i expected. Host is there a direct link between the winter at valley forge . Yes. One of the unfortunate links between the two is these poor guys who were suffering in the 17 seventies it would seem logical they are equipped very well they dont have the shoes with a close to keep themselves warm they warmed their hands by the fire. Korea 1950 its the same situation. Willfully under equipped with clothing given boots that make their feet sweat but then you stop marching at 30 below zero then they freeze in i. C. E. Forms inside your shoe. Frostbite. They are given these thinwall items how do you pull the trigger on your rifle they cut off the fingertips. And it just adds up woefully underprepared for those conditions they run into just like valley forge. Host the gentleman rules of war stays . Definitely. That probably happened more in the civil war first for a separate reason. But a lot of people dont realize those who graduate west point of all sides north and south all the tax points on textbooks up to that point our napoleonic. They are in french one of the requirements is to learn french so you learn the napoleonic tactics that are 60 or 70 years old and that is all they know. So they say line up in a Straight Line shoulder to shoulder because the guns were not very good in that time in 1860 it was better the artillery is better now you have the musket. So the slaughter increases exponentially. That also happens in world war i. When that breaks out the french go out on horseback because it is the old way and the glory way 1914 the germans have come up with a machine gun machine gun and horses dont go together very quickly the french learns we have to do this a different way. There is a lot of tragedy dealing with changes or the Technology Gets better than the tactics. The American Revolution you wrote 4435 with two. 4 billion the mexican war 13000 deaths and now the civil war four years of that 500,000 and death world war i us is in it for one year lost 116,000 soldiers at a cost of 334 billion and world war ii losing 400,000 plus americans four. 1 trillion in the korean war, three years of that, losing 331 billion. Starting with the American Revolution reading a couple of books about that rise to rebellion with the glorious cause what about general cornwallis . What we learned in school the one sentence lesson washington defeats cornwallis at yorktown thats the end of the revolution. No. Thats not the way it happened. [laughter] yes washington in the french defeat cornwallis at yorktown that he is not in command of the british army. Hes down the ladder with two people above him and cornwallis is on his own down in virginia so he is an interesting character because he is a very good man with a very good commander. History treats him like the loser. Im sorry. He is a great deal more than that. And then when washington was facing off between the british in manhattan or crossing the delaware river. I suspect would be a very different outcome. The people above him and telling him what to do. The other part of this is what i do for writing a history book cornwallis is a man of personal tragedy. His wife died during the war he goes back to england and actually has a brief meeting and comes away with george the third saying hes not quite right but his wife died he is in love with his wife and he has to go back to the colonies and fight the war carrying that load with him. Again it is the three dimensions. Why is he interesting . Because he is a human being. Host other facebook comment. I start to read your book on the american and revolution when i got to the part about George Washington i stopped right there because i was certain the americans were going to lose spirit there is a point George Washington thought would lose early on in the war he lost almost every battle he was in. They are chased out of the battle of brooklyn they are chased across the east river cornwallis among them and then across new york city today the southern part of Manhattan Island 30th street and first avenue he is chased up to what we know today as harlem and then all across the hudson river and then across new jersey into pennsylvania. Thats not a very good beginning for someone trying to fight a war. But then on christmas things change differently when washington re crosses the delaware. With the extraordinary victory and after that the battle that washington also wins and then to wake up to the fact this isnt what we can sweep away we could have a war on our hands. Thats washington. It is a much more complicated story than what we hear in high school. What about not require seeing the delaware . Of course because its the men fighting underneath him. They want to go home. The winter passes and they need to work their farms and his army said we are doing too well we need to go away. Washington gives a speech and saves his army. And then philadelphia the Continental Army to put together bags of everything we can find relating to money pieces of silver or flatware and then horses are laden with this to distribute. That saves the army. With that passion for the cause and the desperate need to stick with him changes history because they do. Host he didnt have a sense of authority . He had the Continental Congress and that wasnt much of a Central Authority anyway. They do unite behind the cause that they do not declare war on king george. King george declares war. When we signed the declaration king george hears about this and says they are in a rebellion. Put that on the rebellion. And in washington the reason they choose washington sitting in the Continental Congress and doesnt want to take authority but is in uniform in british uniform with the virginia militia but hes in uniform maybe he knows how to fight a war or organizing and army. Nobody in boston. Who is this guy . Washington has one thing going for him. Physically he is a big man he carries that stature people start paying attention and he organizes officers and thats what they take for granted they organize the army out of people and could care less about virginia and who he is you can tell by the way im talking about this i get excited its not dry history of have to make it up because the real story is fascinating. Host your book on for soldiers . Gone for soldiers. Host it was popular during the vietnam war . Earlier when i was a child kingston trio most people dont know who that is in 1860 that was a big hit song where have all the flowers gone. That stuck with me. With the sadness of that whole song i encourage anybody the essence of that song they have gone to the graveyards and through the process it is a sad song but in 1836 all these young men out of west point clueless about life for war and then they go off to be soldiers its not glory and that carries 13 years later for the civil war and those lessons stay with him. Host you skipped about the war of 1812. I had a heated argument with my publisher about that. The response that i get the publisher said at the time its not a thick enough. I dont necessarily agree with that the war of 1812 is actually three stories the Niagara Campaign and niagara detroit and then washington and baltimore. And then battle of new orleans and it is three separate stories making a wonderful book in three parts but they wouldnt go along with that so at the end of the day i have a contract in new york if they dont printed there is no point in me writing it. So was that war downplayed . A lot of people confuse the mexican war with the alamo. And also one parallel but i found out there is a parallel between the mexican war and the vietnam war. And they come home from their war in 1848 heroes and parades but now they come home to newspaper stories talking how they are butchers or we have just abuse the government of mexico. The map of the United States how we know it today arizona, new mexico, texas all became part of our territory because of the mexican war. We took it. The guilt in congress over that the bill passed in congress but we took all the land and pay them some money so we did it was like 15 million we wrote a check to the government of mexico. But the unpopularity of that war talk about politicians , there was a divide in washington with what we were doing in mexico clearly was conquering downtrodden. It affected the soldiers who deserved better when they came home. I know people from the vietnam era who were spit on when they got off the planes at lax and theres the same sentiment. I did not expect to find that. Host manifest destiny . Right now im working on the cuban missile crisis. We should be able to dictate what happens in cuba there is a sentiment about that that north america and do what we want to buy the time the mexican war and the civil war broke that a part just because we say so doesnt mean its true. Host good afternoon this is the tv on cspan2 special fiction in addition military historical novelist jeff shaara is our guest for the next two and half hours. Send an email to the tv. We will go through those and you can see the information on the screen in just a minute. Very quickly his books and what they are about his first book has turned into a movie prick well to his fathers book killer angels and then the sequel to killers angels came out 1998 about the civil war. The Mexican American more rebellion in the American Revolution prick well and then also about the American Revolution move on to world war i world war ii there are four books and the final storm coming out in 2011 about the pacific blaze of glory came out in 2012 and the pain offender concentrating on vicksburg chattanooga and tecumseh and the the frozen hours came out last year which is about korea. What is it about the civil war and your father quick. You answer the question. What michael did in 1974, first of all backup ten years 1964 we were tourist raised in tallahassee florida my father teach