Who has done stiller work at the disinformation tell all, coolers title ever and before that she was scholar with institute on russia and ukraine and how to lose the information war, russia fake news and the future of congress is conflict is an amazing title and essential reading for everyone on this call and zoom and all your friends. We remember russias Successful Campaign to sow distrust and confusion ahead of the president ial election but in order to win the information as nina would say we need to understand what disinformation is. Ive heard around this topic before and what it is not. The information is use of false or misleading information with malign intent. Thats different from misinformation which can be harmful but lacks malign intent. It also has broader goals and propaganda which involves promotion of a nations view. Nona writes, unlike soviet propaganda which sought to promote specific communist centric world view, the kremlin today divides populations around the world with one goal in mind. The destruction of western democracy as we know it, end quote. Our democracy, no surprise to anyone on the zoom continues to face tremendous threats from disinformation. This year we face not only another election but also a pandemic which nina will tell us is spread of pandemic of covid19 and we have done programming on it and while she was writing the book, nina like the rest of us had no clue coronavirus was working around the corner but shes done an excellent job keeping up with changes as Misinformation Affects more of the media landscape. I would like to say that ninas job is to spread information in a world of disinformation. And in her book she blends engaging journalistic writing style with rigorous look at how misinformation spreads and in ukraine she received grant to advice Ukrainian Government on strategic communications. Most importantly, she does what the Wilson Center does best, which is to offer clearheaded policy recommendations for the United States and other governments facing this challenge. Joining nina on todays panel are matt, director of our institute out as well as asha, former fbi intelligence agent who is now senior lecture institute. Please know if you have questions to the panel you can email them at kenon to wilsoncenter. Org or mention us on twitter at the Wilson Center. To kick off the discussion now, its my delight to to recognize matt and nina and graba, you really are a treasure and to write a book in addition to all the other good work that you do for us is just magical. Very exciting. Over to you, matt. Thank you so much, i will actually start things off and i will begin by thanking you and everyone at the Wilson Center so much for the process over the 3 years, this process was a 3year long process from conception when living in ukraine to today in my office and i wouldnt have been able to do it with kennon institute and particular matt saw the worst of the project when it was in infancy and supported it and gave me room and space to develop it and, of course, meg and the program shepherd it to the end. Im so graceful for your support and im thrilled to be with you here today. I thought i would read a little bit from the conclusion of the book which i wrote around this time last year, the end of july early august when i was trying to imagine what topic future scenario would look like for the United States if we did not begin to push back against disinformation, not just russian disinformation but the domestic variety as well which has begun to infect our discourse at really alarming rate recently. Social media manipulation campaign that after election day came and went easily won a second term. A ukrainian journalist uncovered the manipulation story was fabricated. It originated from a troll account based in russia heard were another troll factory had been offering quietly for years. The story allege the leadership of the Democratic National committee itself had been using russian style social media tactics with a welltimed tweet from an authentic account to Rudy Giuliani the rumor got its way with a single retreat the former new york mayor turn the entire twitter rapid. Then across party lines it was no matter that the story was complete hearsay. No one ever produced a shred of concrete evidence about the whole affair. But after the dnc had been hacked the email plastered across the internet during the 2016 election. What trump is members money under more than portly unofficial swing voters. It was a scandal on the vicious unending circle the news made it reported on the allegations despite evidence braids what boded, candidates and parties were discussing but how could they leave it untouched . Known the integrity of the american electoral policy ballooned on election day technical difficulties with precincts with electronic voting was perceived as potential vote jim vote packing. When that there is seem plausible. Low turnout despite four years of organizing against trump youth turnout was its lowest ever. The correct systems participated. Trumps ever loyal turned out in droves. He won election on the interior ration of the american ecosystem canoed. They slashed funding for the public broadcasting in u. S. Radio. And tutu asked pynchon for this is the ideal outcome for moscow american democracy once a shining hitting on the sill is weak and groveling in 2028. With the dissent and protest with the u. S. Was founded are increasingly foreign concept. Corruption once kept in check by active media and engaged electric, which is the highest levels of government. Consumed by problems at home, the u. S. Is less engaged abroad goes to the failings of our democratic system had a broader range of authoritarian inside and outside its borders see may seem farfetched by the United States along with some of the countries profiled in my book and european democracies were all on her way to a fact free version of democracy like in which the tenants of the democratic process participation and protest are under attack. Might book how to lose the information war lays out how to avert this scenario. And how to rebuild our discours discourse. This polio, Czech Republic and ukraine i introduce readers to the people who fought this information some success with some less so and the enabler prayed the most important one is that people need to be at the heart of the response to this information. Tech platforms, governments, journalist many can fact check their way out of the crisis of truth and trust that we face. But if we educate our citizens and repair the tracks in our democracies to eliminate troll farms in the first place they might have a shot at averting arid if they dont i feel our efforts will be another cautionary tale in another example of how to lose information war britain now going to turn it over. Select thank you nina, thank you jane for joining us. Nina said exactly right. We at the institute are lucky to find nina. But ninas work supporting the mission at a really difficult time for talking and thinking seriously about russia, ukraine, former soviet renee and roentgen region issues certainly anything that is with election interference. You all know very well, i cant imagine anyone on the call you cant open your mouth to have a conversation whats happening in that part of the World Without really becoming basically about american politics. Anita comes along with the fallacy, clear commitment to the idea you can work on this topic and not have it just before american policies or other kind of political agenda. I just want to offer a few further thoughts about why this book is still worthwhile to pick up and read. I have reddit and really enjoyed it. I benefited from it. Why the canids can support nina and her work. First is that there is something metaphorically perfect about the fact that nina began as a fellow it seemed like ancient history back in 2017 and has ended up unassigned Technology Innovation program as a disinformation fellow. Sounds like. [inaudible] to cool the opportunity that didnt exist. Its actually the fact that when you start to look at the dysfunctional dangerous dynamics and russias conflict with the west, this information be only one of them. You find yourself relatively quickly we get to the essence you find yourself in a place is not so much about russia or u. S. Russia relations. Most always about some this bigger, something global in nature something fundamentally human, something about who we are, how we define ourselves. But its very fitting that ninas research is felt that pathways well. Ill come to this in just a moment. They are just exactly on point in that respect. As opposed to what we see here in washington. I entire regional word about the case study. I read a lot of books about the former soviet space. A lot of them are organized into countries. They just kind of treat each of these cases kind of interchangeable. They will apply the same kind of tired mythology. The individual players and what you might call the same high task roles. Whos the champion of democracy in this country for the agents in this country . Nina doesnt do that. Jane use the term almost sure the list to narrated detailing in his own experience give you a very look at what its like to be engaged in a public debate where this features prominently in countries that are by and large in the region of course the Czech Republic nonsense but in communism, quite a bit of russian influence furthers a russian element is an element much bigger. Theres an element that is very specific to the region, the country come the time and place. All that is of great value. They open come to this in our discussion. This is something that we as americans need to be thinking very hard about. Ill find one of most rigid twoparty systems in the world for the incentives if you are coming from the outside at the french heaven forbid heaven for bid is not from the mainstream. If someone apparently helping you, its someone is stirring up dispute, discussion, debate ks it brings more attention to your cause its very hard in that sort of case of monolithic machine to decline that helper distance yourself from it. I think thats absently vital that anna raises in the book. As we watch really dangerous fringe elements needing traction through this in her case studies but how do we address the United States in the context was a whois acacia out of the gate is not needed in our debate. Finally went to add ninas own concluding words an excerpt about people its about education as about democracy and resiliency. To kind of complete the thought that it opened earlier. One of the most exhaustively things ive written about in ineffectiveness is that of punishing bad guys. We have been in search for a quartercentury or more of tools to work with her that bad guy is vitamin potent, kim jongun, al qaeda, we go back and forth between overuse of sanctions, overuse of drones, diplomatic finger wagging. With honestly refreshing what i may say so about what nina has written. As outlooks inward. It is selfcritical about the way we are not resilient in the face of challenges that are going to be there for those of Vladimir Putin out there behind us or there isnt. I find that very refreshing. It is an unfortunate description of the fortunate reality but it is very refreshing. I think organ have a bit of a conversation than questions from our audience out there so pleas please. Host thank you matt. I wanted to just pick up where you left off in terms of why this book is really important to americans understanding of this problem. Which i think is star made for three main reasons i would say. In this book actually addresses all three of those. The first is that as nina points out in her book, this is not Americans First rodeo disinformation coming from russia. This is kgb ml ive had hearings about this in 1982, weve looked at this. But largely with the fall of the soviet union, we thought it was all over. And i think what ninas does is it goes through starting soon after putting comes to power and how methodically the kgb tactics and methods have been practiced, refined, inc. , new technologies. And basically as we sit by they have been practicing and they have been finding ways to make it more and more effective as it has crept closer and closer to the United States. Literally caught us unaware. Because we stopped seeing russia as a serious threat. In 2008 think obama or 2012 obama made fun of romney for saying that russia was a threat. I think what nina chose also with this kind of our blinders being on and with what she mentioned about russia not being constrained by ideology is that it actually gives russia much more flexibility in terms of putting its tentacles into American Society which is something that is very constraining for it during the cold war. We had a natural prophylactic because we were in an ideological struggle. They were really only fringe elements that could be receptive to communist efforts. Were now weve seen theyve made inroads into the right and left. But so i think its this global iteration. The practicing of all these methods. We can see in each of these case studies elements that have shown up in the United States. In each of these countries there some aspect of it thats manifested here. Its an important lesson for us. The second thing this kind of goes along with why we had our blinders on is that americans outputted here. I went to the fbi in 2002. Right after 911. It is been all terrorism all the time. We just we dont think of a threat if it doesnt involve blowing things up and dead bodies someone trying to light issue on fire on an airplane. Thats when you start taking drastic measures. This i think for americans were very naive about this, its hard for americans to get their mind around. And i think this is also just part about the american psyche. Because we have not been practiced upon like these case studies are we develop war and peace no threat Information Warfare these case studies show why its dangerous why its a threat is not an explosion or Something Like that. And i think related to that, the third thing i think americans are very naive about the idea of information as a weapon. This i think is partially a good thing and it is because our first amendment, our constitution offers so much robust for disagreement are freedom of the press. Until we have been conditioned as americans to think of speech and information as a net positive. In the way the marketplace of ideas the way you contact bad speech with good speech. And we havent fully understood how the marketplace of ideas doesnt necessarily translate into the digital space. And this whole idea of information as a weapon is really something we are just getting your mind around. I think weve done a fantastic job of explaining why this is dangerous and why this can translate. About how information can actually translate into behavior where people actually can become puppets and act out on the beliefs they are consuming. I think it is a very, very important lesson for an american audience understand. I think you kind of hit all of these blind spots, these places of ignorance that audiences have come to this issue. I hope we touch on all of these. Because it can be hard to get your mind around. Yeah i can check my sources but whats the big deal of wisest really something we should address . So thank you for that and learned a lot from your book. I am not a person who is affiliated with the media, our media does not do a good job also of focusing on whats happening abroad. We are incredibly ignorant of whats happening abroad. Great thank you. I think the goal if we stand for the next 15 minutes or so as to give people a bit of a teaser base and some important takeaways of the book. Some of the single most important to start with us from all these case studies in the history that was referred to as not being new, what is it that we can learn that we should have known as early as 2016 but really we should know in 2020. And maybe 2028. Civic there are three things that really stand out among these case studies. They werent necessarily things i knew i was going to encounter when its out there during the interviews for the reporting period its a homegrown element to all of the operations that i detail. So americans talk about fake news is stuff that is purely cut and dry fake. I had a conversation by editor because i didnt love that fakeness wasnt it. The terminology is wrong. The best disinformation is grounded in real feelings in the most successful tvs homegrown actors in order to get them out there. So in 2007 russia was able to manipulate the russian ethnic population in order to see the unrest to carry out Cyber Attacks to undermine this new trans Atlantic Company to let russia know this would actually become her stunning is a demand of cyberspace. That was conflict at its head. And all the other case studies in poland is in the 2010 plane crash is an anti muslim sentiment and order to have discord and in the netherlands in 2016 when the netherlands voting on a referendum for ukraines association agreement, using the dutch skepticism against ukraine to undermine unity but undermine support in the community throughout preexisting and brought forth by homegrown actors. And we touched upon the example of the first chapter of the book that was published in the excerpts by political magazine this past weekend. So anyone who wants to get a peace of it can look that up. Lets about a flash mob that was a musical, show to in front of the white house in 2017 and a less leading group had been supported by russian actors to go out into the flash mob get a large amount of attendees for facebook advertising. The homegrown actors a huge part of it. But all of these countries and have a somewhat successful response i noted in the excerpts i read just now they all address People Participation in this equation. They addressed education, they address journalism and the media as a public good. And they are investing in the longterm generational solution sprayed helps people navigate the information environment that they are in. The information ecosystem that is now rapidly degrading. Rather than just trying to eliminate fake accounts and bad actors online. In the third theme i think is to get disinformation from abroad where using it ourselves british elvis playing out in georgia last summer i w