Transcripts For CSPAN2 Douglas Murray The Madness Of Crowds

I am in added junk to fellow at the Manhattan Institute and your post for the young leader circl circle. I think all of you for taking time to be at this event a day. Both Young Leaders members in our general membership. I am so sorry that we cant all be together in person. Although i very much hope it will be sometime soon. But in the meantime, its nice to connect this way. And stay tuned, the Manhattan Institute is putting together a ton of virtual content that they will be rolling out over the next few months. So look at her in boxes for information about those events coming to you shortly. In the interim, i am so pleased to welcome my guests, Douglas Murray to our events. This afternoon. Douglas is a journalist. And i am sure many of you, if not all have read his work in the pages of the wall street journal, the national review, and of course the spectator where he is an associate editor pretty is also an author most recently and 2019 book, the madness of crowds. And he was with us in person at the Manhattan Institute i think it early 2018. And that was just after the publication of this book, the strange death of europe. Now douglas is a Formidable Political critic. And while he is an observer of all things in the uk and the u. S. , i am not sure he knew the subjects of both his most recent books and this one would come into play so much during this particular moment in time. But they have. And it is for that reason and many others that it is my pleasure to welcome you, douglas, to our event this afternoon. Will thank you very much vanessa its a great pleasure to be with you and all your members. Host thank you. The way this will work, douglas and i will talk for the next 20 minutes or so. And at which point we will turn over the q a to you the audience. If you look the righthand side of your screen, there is a little widgets and a little triangle with the word question. You can take a question any time a loo like pert you can do it while we are speaking. It will be turned over to the q a portion of the event, ill be looking at that list and pulling your questions for douglas at that time. Okay, with that we are going to jump right in. Obviously we have all been through, and are continuing to go through a rather serious moment in history. And we will all be doing a lot of selfevaluation on how our governments have handled this a moment as they are looking comparatively across nations to see if theres something we can learn to handle the moment better than we are. And its a part for that reason we are so happy to get a little check in with our friends over in england. Now douglas, i would like to start with the sort of political moment that the uk finds itself or it on generally 31st, i dont need to tell you, but the uk left the European Union and started a transition. Which was only i think about 11 months. So short anyway. There is a moment in time where the future relationship between the uk and the eu would be determined. And my question for you would be whats going to happen now . I mean, in theory your political leaders are a little bit distracted birds of the kind of negotiation that would normally happen has got to be complicated in this moment. Are we going to have an agreement by the 31st of december . Guest yes. What we are going to have an agreement upon i do not know but the government wants to get an agreement by then, absolutely. The question came up in the house of commons just today from a Democratic Party questioning michael. And he was very plain once again theres going to be no delay, even a minor delay in this process. I think, by the way thats righ right. Whatever attitude one takes to brexits and britains exit from the eu, is profoundly important for the british public. Who did vote by a majority, small majority but a majority nonetheless, to leave the European Union. But after three and half years of parliamentary shenanigans and other factors going on that appeared to be trying to delay or indeed reverse the decisions to leave the you. It is absolute crucial. Particularly a government led by this Prime Minister and this cabinet that that they are not seen reneging on that promise. So i think even something as major as the current corona crisis isnt going to make them persuaded that they should in any way move that timeline. Host but if no agreement is reached, and we enter a moment in time where there is even more uncertainty, is that going to be good for the british economy . Guest its not good for anyones economy the situation we are in. We barely got an economy at the moment. In some countries. This is totally uncharted territory. I just repeat the point that the crucial thing is that firstly, we never are in certain times. These may be, especially Uncertain Times with a factor just thrown in that hadnt been expected by very many people. But, the Brexit Process has to be separate from that. It is a commitment of the British Government. Ill be very surprised if it was not followed through on. And just this weekend the formal trade talks between the uk and america have stopped up. So there is a lot going on. Although the main preoccupation is the virus. Sue went to the coronavirus at this stage is not come in your mind, derailed this transaction process . Has there been any other sort of fundamental changes that you see coming to the uk as a result of the coronavirus . Guest none other than the challenges that every country is going through. Obviously you know all of our countries as you well know from the u. S. , oliver countries are sort of looking around the globe for potential best practice. And much more is that came in about it our growth uk has the highest death toll in europe. Of death from the people who died with the virus. There will be lots of going over why that came about. There is already been a lot of postmortem, the postmortem is a bit premature. Host how are the british people thinking about issues like globalization . I know here in the u. S. Are the big question around supply chai chain. Where weakening our masks, are drugs, all of those types of things. Is there a stronger argument now anti globalization happening in the uk . Guest i think that argument is happening everywhere is in it. It is happening in every single country. Not the least because in the early stages of this crisis, there are all sorts of things are seemingly alarming for the example has written an awful lot on Britain Affairs in recent years is travels an awful lot. With a loud a lot in europe and across europe. Seeing the early giddy crisis when italy was suffering worse, seeing the german and french governments going protectionist uncertain products. I mean masks, oxygen, the sort of thing. The italian public has seen an enormous swing in an recent weeks against the eu. I think rightly enraged by that countries that have lectured people most on protection in the recent years. Actually when the crisis hit, doing something that was completely against everything they had said before. And so i think there is a lot of looking around. And a lot of lessons already being taken. But it will be sometime before that we see the effects of that but the polls in the voting. Host lets talk for a second about general public sentiment in the uk right now. Here in the u. S. , there is a pretty strong divide people who believe this moment in time for their evidence of massive government incompetence. Then there are those who are taking this as an opportunity to say government required more controlled more intervention to be able to handle the situation better. Does it matter which camp you are in, trust is at an alltime low here in the u. S. Which has created a number of problems for us. As at the same thing over in england . Are you experiencing that same sort of divide . Guest no i think it is a particularly american thing going on. Its very unique to america, sadly alone. In the uk, we have seen a rise in trust of almost every institution. That includes parliaments, government, the monarchy, the mhs, scientist, scientific experts, academics and so them. As i spent some of my time in the press when im not writing books, i dont exactly please me to it say, but im not surprised to say that the institution that has fallen in the publix esteem the most is been the press, the media. Which has collapsed in public trust. And there a lot of interesting reasons for that. Thats one of the most interesting things about the uk example has been that although we have been said to been a divided country in recent years, much like america has been. In fact, when the scientists got together the chief scientific advisors for the nations when the advice was given and the lockdown was instituted, that was acted upon. There is not this ongoing divide that certainly going on in america. Even a Global Pandemic is inevitably seen through the pro or anti trump prism. Not as a particular challenge for your country. Because of Something Like this cannot bring a sort of common cause, or can show people the commonwealth brings to, then it is among what it would take. But everywhere else is not as extreme as the u. S. And that divide. Its amazing to see, walking in the streets how nicely all of your neighbors have participated in trying to keep everyone safe. So from a human to human interaction, there is been a very quick changeover to what is best for everyone. Two of the political divide continues to see racism approach trump, your Prime Minister was certain parts of the country controversial too. I hear your point on unity. Im wondering though if right now, people are really standing behind, not only because of his leadership in this moment. But because he is one of the few Global Leaders who had a personal interaction with the virus. So how are people thinking about him these days . Guest and the most serious. I think the country did not know quite how serious it was. It was announced he got into intensive care. But i am told that over those few days there are certainly moments when they expected to lose him. Which would have been catastrophic for the uk. Not the least because Boris Johnson is important not just this point but this period of british life. So it was very close. And i think the way he came out and had a very moving message and so the doctor saved his life. As he said, that was something which the public could relate to. As a followup thing from that politically, this means it was exceptionally hard for the late party, the left, to claim in future that the conservatives do not care about the mhs. Every election in my lifetime, the labour partys run on three weeks for mhs. Fortyeight hours. Mhs is still there since it was created in the second world war. But its very striking the idea you could pretend after this that mhs is something everybody does not support. It would seem preposterous. By think undoubtedly something that will be a wage on the conservatives with the debt that Boris Johnson himself says he personally i was to mhs. Its either going to be good years for the health service. Hey named his new baby after his doctor. Yes it was very moving, very moving. Yes for sure. Well, lets talk for just a second about the monarchy. Because here in the u. S. , the American Falls read closely the relationship of the royals. I think there is a whole generation of americans whove forgotten the monarchy had the leadership role took place. In a big role in public unity. It seems like this is a real moment. Most people watch the queens address. And felt comforted by it. As at the same reaction you are having . Very much so. It was interesting that again in recent years we have had every institution being claimed to be losing public trust and so on. It was profoundly moving. The worse. This in the uk, the one person who really wanted to hear from was her majesty the queen. In her address was remarkable. Not least because she is one of the only people, probably the best person i have two draw on the historical aspects of this. And to stay, we have been through bad times before. We have been through worse times before. And we have come through them. And as somebody who gave her first to the nation as a young girl 1914 when her late sister Princess Margaret the children of Great Britain and the empire, it was a very moving thing to see her, able to draw on this historical memory. And to give this reassurance. The media are much more inevitably like to see things in the catastrophic terms as possible. Many other people do. Theres always the risk of increasing fear and the public. It is crucial at a time like this you have some public figures. And in the uk we have at least this one who can draw on our historical feelings. Draw on her own historical experience. And to say that she did, we will act now in a way that makes people in the future look back at us and say we were equal. And of course, the problem about this in the coronavirus lockdown consists of most people sitting around in their pajamas watching netflix. Its not quite storming the beaches of normandy. This generations challenges indeed to sit this out then i supposedly still need encouragement to do so. In the queen certainly provides that. Still when we think about some of the challenges that our generation now will be facing. Certainly not remotely the same than the ones you just described. But you did meet some of this challenges in your most recent book. A big part of that book was about the rise of social justice and identity Politics Movement politics into the media, the workplace, i dont know how things looked for you folks. But here it took about two minutes to really ascended for the various advocates and political exists to use the crisis to unleash a torrent of commentary and content that engineered the pandemic through their own ideology. They use covid19 is evidence, with family healthcare, the greendale, theyve been fast and sophisticated. It is problematic for us in so many ways. Are you seeing that same massive resurgence in the uk . Guest i think this is part of the phenomenon about the globalization critique. My only expectation with this virus is that it makes people double down what they already thought. That doesnt mean they dont get much reach with it. There been certain figures in the eu who always wanted sovereignty more to extend the coronavirus is evident for why we need to pull sovereignty more. Similarly politicians who have tighter orders, everyone can do this from every angle in a way. The identity, just the identity movements in the social justice movement, and theres no exception to that extent. It took slightly longer here than it did there for people to start being the social justice identity warrior game. But they started inevitably. The people that started by saying women suffer more than men from the virus. And then when these statistics showed actually males are disproportionately more likely to die of the virus, they double down and said the men might be doing the dying but the women are doing the suffering. In the endless debate about which ethnic minority may or may not be suffering more from it. In the presentation of those questions instead of been questions about why might that be . The presentation of a bank yet more evidence of the racism of the society we live in so we cannot even get a virus from china without it justifying the view that america is a racist society. But all of that has been going on. My prediction of it what will happen is those people double down as they already have because that is the only game they know how to play. They dont know how to look at the world unless through those spectacles. An intelligent person, a more troubled person might work out that at a time like this if something comes along that you have never thought about before, its possible all the preexisting views may not be justified and vindicated by the arrival of this virus. You might need to do something else. But those people will not because this is the one lens through which they see everything. What i would expect in predictors less a public sympathy for the claims that are being made when an awful lot of people in the country have a declining Living Standard where an awful lot of people have seen unemployment come through their family, their own homes. Theres an awful lot of people for real grievances. Its fairly unlikely to my mind you think maybe those groups are overplaying their hand right now . Very much so. I cant see the celebrities who sit in their house complaining the awfulness of spending all of their time cocooned in their mansions. That doesnt play well the moment anywhere for the people who have look at me, in recent years, it is interesting the worlds we draw on are different from that. In uk the person whos got more public affection which we have not heard of recently is not someone has been doing the look at me, look at what a victim i am. Now it is a wondered hereyearold ex servicemen who raise tens of millions of pounds for the mhs during this period my impression is that is a sort of thing people will want narratives of resilience rather than narratives of suffering and victim this. In our lifetime that narrative emerged. It is not the case even in the 1990s that if you proved you were a victim and you won the game of life. That happened very recently. And that would chain back. I would not be at all surprised if the Current Crisis that will come after this crisis, the crisis where this may just be the prelude we do something to bring about the death of that movement. Stew and just letting our audience no comment just a minute were going to turn to your questions. So be sure to take that ended little widget on the righthand side. I want to cover one thing before we get to those questions but and that is china. Over the weekend our secretary of state, mike pompeo said there is enormous evidence that the pandemic began in a lab in wuha wuhan. So the secretary in the President Trump have accused china of misleading the world about the virus. I thought the uk defense secretary commented audit over the weekend to and is demanding more from china respond to these allegations. How do you think about china from this point out . And will the uk participate at least what seems the direction of the United States and Manhattan Institute<\/a> and your post for the young leader circl circle. I think all of you for taking time to be at this event a day. Both Young Leaders<\/a> members in our general membership. I am so sorry that we cant all be together in person. Although i very much hope it will be sometime soon. But in the meantime, its nice to connect this way. And stay tuned, the Manhattan Institute<\/a> is putting together a ton of virtual content that they will be rolling out over the next few months. So look at her in boxes for information about those events coming to you shortly. In the interim, i am so pleased to welcome my guests, Douglas Murray<\/a> to our events. This afternoon. Douglas is a journalist. And i am sure many of you, if not all have read his work in the pages of the wall street journal, the national review, and of course the spectator where he is an associate editor pretty is also an author most recently and 2019 book, the madness of crowds. And he was with us in person at the Manhattan Institute<\/a> i think it early 2018. And that was just after the publication of this book, the strange death of europe. Now douglas is a Formidable Political<\/a> critic. And while he is an observer of all things in the uk and the u. S. , i am not sure he knew the subjects of both his most recent books and this one would come into play so much during this particular moment in time. But they have. And it is for that reason and many others that it is my pleasure to welcome you, douglas, to our event this afternoon. Will thank you very much vanessa its a great pleasure to be with you and all your members. Host thank you. The way this will work, douglas and i will talk for the next 20 minutes or so. And at which point we will turn over the q a to you the audience. If you look the righthand side of your screen, there is a little widgets and a little triangle with the word question. You can take a question any time a loo like pert you can do it while we are speaking. It will be turned over to the q a portion of the event, ill be looking at that list and pulling your questions for douglas at that time. Okay, with that we are going to jump right in. Obviously we have all been through, and are continuing to go through a rather serious moment in history. And we will all be doing a lot of selfevaluation on how our governments have handled this a moment as they are looking comparatively across nations to see if theres something we can learn to handle the moment better than we are. And its a part for that reason we are so happy to get a little check in with our friends over in england. Now douglas, i would like to start with the sort of political moment that the uk finds itself or it on generally 31st, i dont need to tell you, but the uk left the European Union<\/a> and started a transition. Which was only i think about 11 months. So short anyway. There is a moment in time where the future relationship between the uk and the eu would be determined. And my question for you would be whats going to happen now . I mean, in theory your political leaders are a little bit distracted birds of the kind of negotiation that would normally happen has got to be complicated in this moment. Are we going to have an agreement by the 31st of december . Guest yes. What we are going to have an agreement upon i do not know but the government wants to get an agreement by then, absolutely. The question came up in the house of commons just today from a Democratic Party<\/a> questioning michael. And he was very plain once again theres going to be no delay, even a minor delay in this process. I think, by the way thats righ right. Whatever attitude one takes to brexits and britains exit from the eu, is profoundly important for the british public. Who did vote by a majority, small majority but a majority nonetheless, to leave the European Union<\/a>. But after three and half years of parliamentary shenanigans and other factors going on that appeared to be trying to delay or indeed reverse the decisions to leave the you. It is absolute crucial. Particularly a government led by this Prime Minister<\/a> and this cabinet that that they are not seen reneging on that promise. So i think even something as major as the current corona crisis isnt going to make them persuaded that they should in any way move that timeline. Host but if no agreement is reached, and we enter a moment in time where there is even more uncertainty, is that going to be good for the british economy . Guest its not good for anyones economy the situation we are in. We barely got an economy at the moment. In some countries. This is totally uncharted territory. I just repeat the point that the crucial thing is that firstly, we never are in certain times. These may be, especially Uncertain Times<\/a> with a factor just thrown in that hadnt been expected by very many people. But, the Brexit Process<\/a> has to be separate from that. It is a commitment of the British Government<\/a>. Ill be very surprised if it was not followed through on. And just this weekend the formal trade talks between the uk and america have stopped up. So there is a lot going on. Although the main preoccupation is the virus. Sue went to the coronavirus at this stage is not come in your mind, derailed this transaction process . Has there been any other sort of fundamental changes that you see coming to the uk as a result of the coronavirus . Guest none other than the challenges that every country is going through. Obviously you know all of our countries as you well know from the u. S. , oliver countries are sort of looking around the globe for potential best practice. And much more is that came in about it our growth uk has the highest death toll in europe. Of death from the people who died with the virus. There will be lots of going over why that came about. There is already been a lot of postmortem, the postmortem is a bit premature. Host how are the british people thinking about issues like globalization . I know here in the u. S. Are the big question around supply chai chain. Where weakening our masks, are drugs, all of those types of things. Is there a stronger argument now anti globalization happening in the uk . Guest i think that argument is happening everywhere is in it. It is happening in every single country. Not the least because in the early stages of this crisis, there are all sorts of things are seemingly alarming for the example has written an awful lot on Britain Affairs<\/a> in recent years is travels an awful lot. With a loud a lot in europe and across europe. Seeing the early giddy crisis when italy was suffering worse, seeing the german and french governments going protectionist uncertain products. I mean masks, oxygen, the sort of thing. The italian public has seen an enormous swing in an recent weeks against the eu. I think rightly enraged by that countries that have lectured people most on protection in the recent years. Actually when the crisis hit, doing something that was completely against everything they had said before. And so i think there is a lot of looking around. And a lot of lessons already being taken. But it will be sometime before that we see the effects of that but the polls in the voting. Host lets talk for a second about general public sentiment in the uk right now. Here in the u. S. , there is a pretty strong divide people who believe this moment in time for their evidence of massive government incompetence. Then there are those who are taking this as an opportunity to say government required more controlled more intervention to be able to handle the situation better. Does it matter which camp you are in, trust is at an alltime low here in the u. S. Which has created a number of problems for us. As at the same thing over in england . Are you experiencing that same sort of divide . Guest no i think it is a particularly american thing going on. Its very unique to america, sadly alone. In the uk, we have seen a rise in trust of almost every institution. That includes parliaments, government, the monarchy, the mhs, scientist, scientific experts, academics and so them. As i spent some of my time in the press when im not writing books, i dont exactly please me to it say, but im not surprised to say that the institution that has fallen in the publix esteem the most is been the press, the media. Which has collapsed in public trust. And there a lot of interesting reasons for that. Thats one of the most interesting things about the uk example has been that although we have been said to been a divided country in recent years, much like america has been. In fact, when the scientists got together the chief scientific advisors for the nations when the advice was given and the lockdown was instituted, that was acted upon. There is not this ongoing divide that certainly going on in america. Even a Global Pandemic<\/a> is inevitably seen through the pro or anti trump prism. Not as a particular challenge for your country. Because of Something Like<\/a> this cannot bring a sort of common cause, or can show people the commonwealth brings to, then it is among what it would take. But everywhere else is not as extreme as the u. S. And that divide. Its amazing to see, walking in the streets how nicely all of your neighbors have participated in trying to keep everyone safe. So from a human to human interaction, there is been a very quick changeover to what is best for everyone. Two of the political divide continues to see racism approach trump, your Prime Minister<\/a> was certain parts of the country controversial too. I hear your point on unity. Im wondering though if right now, people are really standing behind, not only because of his leadership in this moment. But because he is one of the few Global Leaders<\/a> who had a personal interaction with the virus. So how are people thinking about him these days . Guest and the most serious. I think the country did not know quite how serious it was. It was announced he got into intensive care. But i am told that over those few days there are certainly moments when they expected to lose him. Which would have been catastrophic for the uk. Not the least because Boris Johnson<\/a> is important not just this point but this period of british life. So it was very close. And i think the way he came out and had a very moving message and so the doctor saved his life. As he said, that was something which the public could relate to. As a followup thing from that politically, this means it was exceptionally hard for the late party, the left, to claim in future that the conservatives do not care about the mhs. Every election in my lifetime, the labour partys run on three weeks for mhs. Fortyeight hours. Mhs is still there since it was created in the second world war. But its very striking the idea you could pretend after this that mhs is something everybody does not support. It would seem preposterous. By think undoubtedly something that will be a wage on the conservatives with the debt that Boris Johnson<\/a> himself says he personally i was to mhs. Its either going to be good years for the health service. Hey named his new baby after his doctor. Yes it was very moving, very moving. Yes for sure. Well, lets talk for just a second about the monarchy. Because here in the u. S. , the American Falls<\/a> read closely the relationship of the royals. I think there is a whole generation of americans whove forgotten the monarchy had the leadership role took place. In a big role in public unity. It seems like this is a real moment. Most people watch the queens address. And felt comforted by it. As at the same reaction you are having . Very much so. It was interesting that again in recent years we have had every institution being claimed to be losing public trust and so on. It was profoundly moving. The worse. This in the uk, the one person who really wanted to hear from was her majesty the queen. In her address was remarkable. Not least because she is one of the only people, probably the best person i have two draw on the historical aspects of this. And to stay, we have been through bad times before. We have been through worse times before. And we have come through them. And as somebody who gave her first to the nation as a young girl 1914 when her late sister Princess Margaret<\/a> the children of Great Britain<\/a> and the empire, it was a very moving thing to see her, able to draw on this historical memory. And to give this reassurance. The media are much more inevitably like to see things in the catastrophic terms as possible. Many other people do. Theres always the risk of increasing fear and the public. It is crucial at a time like this you have some public figures. And in the uk we have at least this one who can draw on our historical feelings. Draw on her own historical experience. And to say that she did, we will act now in a way that makes people in the future look back at us and say we were equal. And of course, the problem about this in the coronavirus lockdown consists of most people sitting around in their pajamas watching netflix. Its not quite storming the beaches of normandy. This generations challenges indeed to sit this out then i supposedly still need encouragement to do so. In the queen certainly provides that. Still when we think about some of the challenges that our generation now will be facing. Certainly not remotely the same than the ones you just described. But you did meet some of this challenges in your most recent book. A big part of that book was about the rise of social justice and identity Politics Movement<\/a> politics into the media, the workplace, i dont know how things looked for you folks. But here it took about two minutes to really ascended for the various advocates and political exists to use the crisis to unleash a torrent of commentary and content that engineered the pandemic through their own ideology. They use covid19 is evidence, with family healthcare, the greendale, theyve been fast and sophisticated. It is problematic for us in so many ways. Are you seeing that same massive resurgence in the uk . Guest i think this is part of the phenomenon about the globalization critique. My only expectation with this virus is that it makes people double down what they already thought. That doesnt mean they dont get much reach with it. There been certain figures in the eu who always wanted sovereignty more to extend the coronavirus is evident for why we need to pull sovereignty more. Similarly politicians who have tighter orders, everyone can do this from every angle in a way. The identity, just the identity movements in the social justice movement, and theres no exception to that extent. It took slightly longer here than it did there for people to start being the social justice identity warrior game. But they started inevitably. The people that started by saying women suffer more than men from the virus. And then when these statistics showed actually males are disproportionately more likely to die of the virus, they double down and said the men might be doing the dying but the women are doing the suffering. In the endless debate about which ethnic minority may or may not be suffering more from it. In the presentation of those questions instead of been questions about why might that be . The presentation of a bank yet more evidence of the racism of the society we live in so we cannot even get a virus from china without it justifying the view that america is a racist society. But all of that has been going on. My prediction of it what will happen is those people double down as they already have because that is the only game they know how to play. They dont know how to look at the world unless through those spectacles. An intelligent person, a more troubled person might work out that at a time like this if something comes along that you have never thought about before, its possible all the preexisting views may not be justified and vindicated by the arrival of this virus. You might need to do something else. But those people will not because this is the one lens through which they see everything. What i would expect in predictors less a public sympathy for the claims that are being made when an awful lot of people in the country have a declining Living Standard<\/a> where an awful lot of people have seen unemployment come through their family, their own homes. Theres an awful lot of people for real grievances. Its fairly unlikely to my mind you think maybe those groups are overplaying their hand right now . Very much so. I cant see the celebrities who sit in their house complaining the awfulness of spending all of their time cocooned in their mansions. That doesnt play well the moment anywhere for the people who have look at me, in recent years, it is interesting the worlds we draw on are different from that. In uk the person whos got more public affection which we have not heard of recently is not someone has been doing the look at me, look at what a victim i am. Now it is a wondered hereyearold ex servicemen who raise tens of millions of pounds for the mhs during this period my impression is that is a sort of thing people will want narratives of resilience rather than narratives of suffering and victim this. In our lifetime that narrative emerged. It is not the case even in the 1990s that if you proved you were a victim and you won the game of life. That happened very recently. And that would chain back. I would not be at all surprised if the Current Crisis<\/a> that will come after this crisis, the crisis where this may just be the prelude we do something to bring about the death of that movement. Stew and just letting our audience no comment just a minute were going to turn to your questions. So be sure to take that ended little widget on the righthand side. I want to cover one thing before we get to those questions but and that is china. Over the weekend our secretary of state, mike pompeo said there is enormous evidence that the pandemic began in a lab in wuha wuhan. So the secretary in the President Trump<\/a> have accused china of misleading the world about the virus. I thought the uk defense secretary commented audit over the weekend to and is demanding more from china respond to these allegations. How do you think about china from this point out . And will the uk participate at least what seems the direction of the United States<\/a> and Holding China<\/a> accountable if these allegations turn out to be true . Guest i would expect so. Until this crisis came along, the main debate with china and the uk was over them providing parts of the uks. [inaudible] and i thought entirely wrongly. I thought the sole major misstep of the governments of the uk uk was in granting that contract. I would hope that in the very least would chain now but we will see. I wouldnt dissipate strengthening of attitudes about this everywhere. To me most interesting thing about this is how it responds and whether we can stick together on which i hope we can. The one thing that is noticeable about this, partly about this is that if you remember in recent years there have been things like the enormous row that blew up in 2012 between the uk in china over then Prime Minister<\/a> camerons meeting with the dalai lama. In the wake of that, for about a year is a very rocky relations between the uk and china. China canceled narrative meetings with trade invoice and much more. And the government was over a barrel on its period and decided to bend towards beijings wood announced they would never again meet with the dalai lama. This to mine mine was a very worrying prelude. One of the very important thing, it is because the Australian Government<\/a> last week called for, quite rightly called for an independent International Inquiry<\/a> into the source of the virus. This i think is absolutely crucial. Should not expect it will not get great cooperation from beijing. But even the sites of that noncooperation the backlash, the war of words from the communist party of china, main organs, the journals, the papers it runs and indeed the comments from among others the Chinese Ambassador<\/a> to australia have been exceptionally very lynch and the last few days. The description of australia being a peace of chewing gum on the bottom of the shoe of china. China should just pick off. It is really extraordinary language they are using prebut heres the thing. Australia is of course in a different position than the uk. We have a trade deficit with china. We have 3 trillion deficit this puts australia and much better position than us. Oh will be interesting in the days, weeks, months ahead is the extent to which chinas leverage is or is not still there. Depending on the nations reliance on it economically. I would hope that the five eyes in particular stick together on this. Then have a unified response with whatever we find. Host money think about the italian, you mentioned earlier on. Talk about the italian reaction seemed it is clear this is very complicated time. And everyone will kind of line up. And that Balance Sheet<\/a> just the way described were really starting to see that. I would add one other thing to that. Serbias been applying for membership. But it gave a speech saying that you was never our friends. Turns out they have not come up to write who has come to write . Chinese chinas our friend. Now for america and Strategic Partners<\/a> around the world, this is a very important game thats going on at the moment. To see a country, nevermind in european terms in global terms for it is something we really should be thinking about. Im going to switch over now to questions from our audience. This is a question from maxwell cohen. He asks, do you think the uk will be that many first dominoes it eventually brings the European Union<\/a> to an end . Guest this is a very tricky question but i should. Jim preface it that i voted for brexit. Their role in the world was not to remain in the eu. Nevertheless we have said everything we had to say as a country by leaving the eu. By urging it and leaving it. And after you left, it is not for you to say what you think they should or should not do. So there is always a risk to keep from talking to the. To something wrong to vindicate our decision to brexit. I just say by way of preface because if that you does fall apart. It is going to bring it absolute havoc to europe and something i would not want to see. I do think that the countries important to look to his italy. Ive referred to it twice already. It is one of the Founding Member<\/a>s. The goal and others is to keep written out about became the eu. Brittle is a Founding Member<\/a> and absolutely crucial to the project. If it goes, this is a Franco German<\/a> pension German Alliance<\/a> of some kind, italy is the one to watch and i dont think im breaking a confidence i wont say who was, but couple years ago i was in italy and ive been there quite a lot in recent years. And was speaking from the Italian Government<\/a> he said to me at that point the government was doing a horrible job. They said this italian said to me we look at you with just horror. We think of you in the uk is being organized. And capable. If its difficult for you to leave, we dont have to leave the eu we have to leave europe. We dont think of ourselves organized in any way. Its hard for you, what would be like for us . That was a very common view in italy in recent years. Those that have the critique of the eu pray they say look at is what is happening to britain. This is not as easy to you do as ukraine. So the eu skepticism and italy declined in this. As it did partially in france. But it is on the rise now. Yes it is possible. But i dont say i will its in any way. Because i say its extraordinary turbulence which will come about. Not least is countries have to return other currencies. See what im going to go to her next question what we have so many questions so thank you to the audience try to sifter than the best i can. This question is from timothy. The question is will they crescendo anti media sentiment translate into any chain in the composition of media or communication of ideas . Im so glad he asked this question. I think earlier on we are about to Say Something<\/a> more about why and how the turn in the media, the uk was so swift during this moment. Can you tell us a little bit more about that . Is quite a specific one. And not similar to its happening in the white house briefings and questions for essentially what it is, the media did not know what the beginning of this crisis. Most people who work in the media are humanities graduates. People who studied hard science do not tend to end up in the media. There was a serious knowledge gap at the very beginning of this crisis. I think it took quite a long time to catch up to. So what happened was, particularly the same in the u. S. Was everyone continue to play in the media games you turn game which is one i am at least a fond of myself. That you turn game is you the government said this on march the 29th. And on april the 30 then said this. Course you turn game and anyone who drives a car knows the uturn is a quite useful maneuver. You often need it if for instance you are driving into a wall the deployment of the uturn would come in handy. The uturn is a morally neutral term itself or the media has turned into exemplary failure or contradiction. Theres another part of this game. Think what striking about this is in fact the public is the nuance then the media reports to the public. In acts of some kind intermediary. The fact that those games went on to a certain extent they have diminished, with the main reason why the declining trust the most. The germans just did not know what questions to ask. I have had a few rows with colleagues about this. If you havent written about pandemics or thought about that in the past, you of course have insights. But you are stuck if youre going to present yourself as a pandemic expert in 48 hours. Host now that everyone has become so accustomed to having a platform anywhere, and that sort of moment of excitement not positive with excitement but nevertheless seems like everybody just got it. The upside of this is somewhat a return to respected expert. Which would not be bad thing. Guest as long as experts have this right. I do, im sure, have to worry about this. As a starts to pass a jump past the peak in this country on it where, maybe it was never going to be as bad as that. Maybe you took the worst projections. And quite strong arguments in that direction. Weve got this right. Gregory mcnetts asked with the similar question and wants to have a sense. Im in a paraphrase here a little bit, whether or not the experts are socalled experts that came out very early on whether they will come out of this unscathed. Therell be something to pay at the end of all of this as we start to really know what is happening. Will they adopt a more selfcritical humble tone . Or will ever continue to double down and this is the end bierman we will live in on here on out. And interesting flexion point to me it seems the public debate of the moment. Because certainly and this we were told we were to do. And it seems to have paid off to an extent. The nightingale hospitals very swiftly erected in east london to taken thousands of patients, has just been put on standby. There is no one to go into it. Now of course at that point people divide into two camps. The one that says that is because we did what we are told to do and has averted the worst. And those will so you see, it was exaggerated from the outset. And everything, i think one can now see the origins of this concerned government has expressed several times. The scientists have expressed the concern about what would happen if you got a second peak and the country had to be ordered into lockdown for the second time. I do think and now, for those of us who have not been studied, now we sort of know why that fear was there. Because the origins of the counter narrative, right or wrong or brewing at the moment. And there are very serious questions to ask about this it seems to me. And this other one which is on all of our minds which is the virologist cannot be the only people determine the destiny and the future of major democracy. The u. S. Or the uk the simple economic demands at this stage are so over war well me that we can see also why the scientists are worried about the implications for all of that. We are just a few minutes before our conclusion but i will take one more question from our audience. In a question i have myself. You had a pretty spectacular election leading with your current Prime Minister<\/a> in terms of what the actual results, but how significant they were. As the movement around him, especially given the situation were in right now and expecting to be in for some time ahead of us . Has it been really defeated . Or will it bounce back . And is it something we all need to be continue to be concerned about . I can tell you for sure here in the u. S. We are also very concerned. Yes i think you should be. I would like to think the movement of with jerry and Bernie Sanders<\/a> and others are part of has disappeared or will disappeared history. But i think thought many times in her other life that it was high time that happened. And it comes back again like some horrible zombie narrative. Everything you think youve killed it, its back. Jerry said himself and his version his iteration of the labour party was completely destroyed last december. There are lots of reasons for that. Not least just a socialist with extraordinary radical leftist. But also profoundly patriotic, never saw anyone of any groups who did not support in some way. With public terrorist, its always the people and even Traditional Labour Party<\/a> brooches did not turn out to vote. I was the first time in their lives printed different situation it seems to me. This all depends on the economic recovery from this catastrophe. And i would say that again, owing to this thing of everything doubling down, they were most concerned into things that those of us broadly speaking on the political right were impossible and imaginable. Had been happening in recent weeks. I am thinking things like, it is not ubi, but its a bit like a test for ubi that has occurred in the u. S. In recent weeks. It is now possible to see what a British Government<\/a> has said there is no spare money can find, not just some spare money. But being in the billions to bail out every company. And, you know, after this it would seem to me when the radical leftist say we would like to do this, in the future. We can no longer say thats unimaginable because we not just imagined it but done it. Albeit to a small extent compared to what they would like to do. Once something has been seen to be possible and plausible, then it can be easier to vote for. next, talking about his book United States<\/a> of socialism and then stacy abram former democratic candidate for governor of georgia, this is Voter Suppression<\/a> and civil rights. Our time is now pretty lakers fox news is Chris Wallace<\/a> looks back at the history leading up to the bombing regime a in august of 1945. Youre watching tv on cspan2, every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. Cspan2. Created by American Cable Television<\/a> company is a public service, and brought to you today by your television provider. Up next on book tvs afterwards, conservative author and commentator, its on the sentences between the 20th century social it socialism and socialism today. Interview by author an independent Institute Senior<\/a> fellow benjamin powell. So five years ago would be hard to imagine a book being called the United States<\/a> of socialism being published but a lot is changed since then. So probably answer to my first question but a lot of these folks have been published about socialism its response to what is changed over the last five years. And theyll have little bit of a different take on his braided emphasize different points. So the obvious question to answer is","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia801704.us.archive.org\/33\/items\/CSPAN2_20200826_231700_Douglas_Murray_The_Madness_of_Crowds\/CSPAN2_20200826_231700_Douglas_Murray_The_Madness_of_Crowds.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20200826_231700_Douglas_Murray_The_Madness_of_Crowds_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240716T12:35:10+00:00"}