Distancing social from future tense in partnership, a partnership of slate, new America Foundation and Arizona State university. Today were talking about the future of books and then joined by Priscilla Painton who is Vice President and executive editor of simon schuster, and Brandon Tensley was the National Political writer for cnn politics. Hi, priscilla and brandon. I cant hear you have to unmute. A, nice to be here. Thanks for having us. When i was asked to moderate this, one of the things that it brought up, brought to mind area broader in my memory was how in the early 2000s it seemed like everywhere you went there was like a Panel Discussion of the future books and people making a lot of predictions about the future of books and how things had to change and which way they needed to go, and that was all tied to the emergence of ebooks and ebook technology. Most of the people said at the time, did not turn out to be true. Ebooks did not take over from print books. In particular, younger readers more than any other Demographic Group preferred print books. The idea that Book Publishing needed to change with this technology, maybe it did in some ways, but not maybe in the ways that people thought, and im wondering first, priscilla, i dont know if you remember that time or the kind of craziness that went along with it, but do you feel i dont know how much credit you gave to that idea at the time, but what do you think about it now . Do you think any of those predictions are likely to hand out, and how has that changed your own personal feelings about printing future books . I am terrified to make any predictions. Im still terrified of making predictions. I was a fan and i am now. Before becoming a book publisher i was a political reporter so i learned humility early. What i would say is that yes, you are actually right i remember the charts. You would see ebooks go straight up, and i think thats the in of the bookstore. What happened is about five or six years ago that trend stalled. As you say, physical books continued to thrive. The Biggest Development though is that not only do millennials like physical books, they love audiobooks. That has taken off as a genre and that is also very good for publishing. Because what it means is that you can take a book with you as you vacuum your living room. You can take a book with you everywhere, and that is also frankly at a time when we need a very reliable source of income. It has turned out to be exactly that. So the good news for me, to meet the big headline is so simple, which is people will read, are reading more than ever. They are just doing it across a whole different set of platforms. And i call it the harry potter phenomenon, which is everybody thought we were no longer making generations of readers. Well, a whole series of books about popularity came along, and what we have is generation after generation of readers who just changed, maybe change the way they consume, they consume a page but they dont change their desire to see something on a page. One of the changes that feels the most urgent right now has been about diversifying the industry, and we just recently have seen the day of solidarity where 1100 Publishing Industry workers took a day to do whatever they felt was necessary to support people of color who were writers or worked in the industry, and have exacted some promises, although its always not clear what exactly those promises will pan out to be from management about making the industry more representative. Its very white. I think its anywhere from, i have some figures right here. Depending on which a a survey u look at it anywhere from 76 84 white, where the general population is 60 white and hispanics and blacks in particular are underrepresented. Im curious, you brandon, youre a young writer of color, and i dont doubt that you have ideas for books. How does the Publishing Industry look to you from your perspective . Yeah, its interesting for me because i, on the one hand, i see that there are certain more Diverse Voices that are out there, and those are either voices a lot of people up and they elevate, they celebrate a thing when you take a step back and realize everybody is talking about the same few people. It seems like maybe a few people get in and have which are infallible. People are reading them right now despite all the protest but they also think about all the people who have not been that successful, who have not been able to actually break through. When you think about it, i think, i dont want to say its disheartening like the industry hasnt been changing but you see how much still needs to change to find writers who not only want to write these stories but are empowered to actually write these stories. One thing ive noticed recently especially on twitter and you probably noticed different campaigns were people try to talk about what they were paid for the books and things like that, and its pretty galling to see somebody like roxane gay got paid 70,000 or something for bad feminist. Shes already pretty well known by that point and really reflected as a writer. And so you see stuff like that and you also see people or at least ive seen people talk about they will have an idea for a book project and maybe they will approach an editor and that editor might say like this sounds really good. This sounds like a story that needs to be told that i dont know if im the person to work on that story, which is sort of a doubleedged sword because on the one hand, it shows a degree of selfawareness that is important. You dont want to necessarily messed up somebodys work if its not something you feel comfortable working with, but on the other hand, you still need those editors, you still need people who are comfortable working with these diverse stories and stories that maybe make people uncomfortable to edit a book about race and racism needs to make people feel comfortable and they have the resources to be able to actually do this work because it does, in fact, a lot of the stories that are told. And peoples willingness to tell those stories with a think somebody seems to like this book for this book idea, but they seem skittish about taking it on themselves. Those are my general observations especially over the past two to three weeks of the protests. Do you feel like they are skittish because theyre basically white editors and you dont feel like they understand issue in the organic way that an editor of color with . I do. It seems like it when it seems like its a matter of respect, like i dont want to necessarily botch somebody there and nuanced story about race. On the other hand, i think that can also be sort of a crutch so that people dont have to do the work required to rigorously think about the issues where theres an appetite for people to consume and read about. This idea, its a matter of disconnect between lived experience and the sort of intellectual experience that youre supposed to be able to work with and a question of how do you bridge at the five and how do you get white publicist for editors to feel comfortable really throwing their weight behind these types of stories. One of the things everybody is talking about this week is the fact that the paperback bestseller list on amazon is almost entirely books on antiracism which is exciting but then you realize most of the people who are buying those books are probably white. I dont think black people necessarily need to read about how to be antiracist. In a weird way most of those books are written by people of color, but they are presumably written for still like so much publishing for a majority white audience, even though there are lots of readers of color who are interested in reading about their own conviction about their own experiences, other kinds of stories about their own experiences. Priscilla, what you do you thie some of the most promising or even effective, i mean the industry has not by that part on this but like have you seen strategies for policies that seem particularly helpful for promising to you in this . Basically to get more editors i was going to say to take up where brandon was, i think the solution to skittishness is to have a diverse, you know, imprint. Youre absolutely right that publishing remains one of the most starkly white businesses around, and it has the capacity to be dangerous because presumably books have something to contribute to the culture. That by definition is not a healthy situation. Youre right that the good news is that, i just was reading the New York Times bestseller list. The top ten entries, print and ebook nonfiction are about race thats never, thats that happened in my lifetime ever. It starts with white fragility, number one. Number two, you want to talk about race. Number three, how to be antiracist, and it goes all the way down to our favorite, just mercy. And, of course, number 11 is michelle. Based on what ive seen, the strategy is that the people who have the right nerve endings for these stories should be all of us, i think. They shouldnt be a skittishness about it, but more importantly we just need to change how we hire. Its really basic and i mean, i dont want to get into detail but theyre still a sort of, you know, i kind of its on the side kind of attitude as opposed to integral to our list is not this thing we do over here, you know, and thats a big attitude that needs to change. You can correct correct me t any of this wrong, priscilla, because i havent technically worked in Book Publishing but my understanding is that for like decades the economy of Book Publishing ran on the cheap labor of sort of junior staff who all came from life the same set of east coast schools who were mostly women, who may be, many of them were not even necessarily on a real career track. This was just a little hobby job because the parents were rich but they were doing until they married a stockbroker or whatever, and that was likely economic model of publishing that your junior staff were people who did not need to be paid a living wage, or to really have you know, you didnt need to offer them like the possibility of ever getting one. It seems like its only gotten worse because the industry is in new york, and its more and more difficult for anyone on, even a middleclass income to live there let alone what editorial assistance are paid. And yet everyone always says publishing is a lowmargin industry. One of the issues is partly that theres a certain class of people who can afford to work for publishing, who can work their way up in publishing. Im assuming that you came in at a higher level from journalism which it definitely happens, but for people who want to start out kind of in the trenches and work their way up they have to be able to live in new york on a pittance for several years at least, and then theres not that much, you know, there is no guarantee. Theres not that much space to move up in. So that limits the candidate pool a lot. It limits people by race and it also limits of them by im wondering, what are some of the measures that can be taken to deal with that . I feel like that is just a wall that unit at a certain point. Well, youre right that 50 or 70 years ago that there was a culture of, where publishing was, you know, your entry job was for people who could afford to not make a lot of money. I would say the salaries of injuring people are still low. Entering people. One of the things that comes out of the pandemic is we are suddenly able expand the universe and where people can live and edit, that would be a very good thing. I think the biggest remedy is to change the range between the higher salaries and the lower. You dont make a lot of money, even at my level in publishing meetings at the vicepresident level. Its not like working on wall street or at a high level, at a corporation, at a big, you know, ibm type place, but theres still, i think, quite a gap between what entry level editors get paid and part of, i think, the philosophy behind that is that you actually get trained right out of school. You get trained on the job, you know . So with that the good news is that what i have seen in recent years is a lot of hiring of nonwhite, very ambitious for books type people who just have to be near a book every day of their life and theres you know, theres more the pool is getting larger and we are Getting Better at finding those people and hiring them. Well, one of the promising concepts thats come out of the organization and we need diverse books, which started as the in childrens Book Publishing, which is to sort of help fund internships for people of color, and i would hope, you know, other lower level jobs so that people can connect, afford to get started in the business, is they dont come from money, but let me ask you what you thi think, you know, what you feel is missing. You know, youre a you think whier reader. Youre a reader of color, youre a younger reader. What do you see the industry not providing to readers like you . One and this is such a tricky topic so im being careful how i talk about it, but one thing i think about is a need to sort of expand the universe of what kinds of stories people want from writers of color. I think theres often a sort of assumption, and its not totally inaccurate, that, you know, the topics that writers of color of able to talk about, are experts on are their own lived experiences, so, i feel beyond sort of the genre, a memoir, or, you know, a question of written essays, Something Like that, you dont see as much, i havent seen as many sort of books that allow that range of creativity, that change of exploration, that range of interrogation, and again, you know, its not necessarily a bad thing, but i feel like it becomes a bad thing when thats the only thing available. When it seems thats the only way to break into the industry. Sock, i guess i have to dissect some part of my life or make a part of my life ledgeable for white readers, white audiences and i guess thats the thing, so ill do it. I think to be able to understand that there are many, many, many things that writers of color, that readers of color are interested in other than learning about their own experience. Not that its not important, but expanding that conversation, expanding that representation. Just, i mean, what ive also heard some writers say is just to focus only on the traumatic experience was as opposed to like, its a whole range of you know, its human lives and they have everything in them. Are you working on a book yourself . I am trying. I guess its not related to and im not guilty of what i just said, but you know, sort of the idea that im interested in is sort of Whitney Houston as this cultural figure, somebody who hasnt gotten the sort of more cultural criticism treatment, and sort of how we can get how she is somebody in a lot of ways, her life is a microcosm, the expectations that we have, that main society has of black artists. Somebody who came in pop heavy, obviously black, but didnt want her to sing too black and how that sort of changed the trajectory of her career later on and she changed the sound of her music after that. And so i am interested in this broader sort of legacy of the effects of mainstreaming on in particular black artists. Im guilty of a little bit of what i just said. And extend it at least to music. It sounds fascinating and maybe theres somebody who is listening in in publishing who will find that intriguing. [laughter] sounds great. Lets talk about technology, the future trend is a lot about technolo technology. What youve said about audio books struck a nerve with me, ive been writing about them for a while. And i started writing about them 10 years ago and an addition to me, i control the number of books and some day and then we love you. This is great. [laughte [laughter] but it does seem like theres a lot of competition from podcasts and theres actually a great app called autumn that now has top level audio book readers reading if journalism, a dream come true for me. First of all, brandon, are you an audio person at all or are you just an eyeball reader . Actually both. Well, more of an eyeball reader, but it was interesting the top of the conversation when you mentioned people, you know, millennials, ill be a representative for the millennials for a second. The millennials, they like both or at least they see the benefits of both. Its funny, im in two book clubs, that i joined sort of joined and started once the pandemic started. And one is a Gay Book Club and were reading, im reading a hard copy and immortal girls by andrea lawler. And the other is the chiffon trenches and that was, for me thats an audio book. Thats one that i listen to when im cooking dinner or cleaning up the house or something. But when you said that, you know, people are doing both, im literally doing both of those right now. Yeah, i am definitely seeing from some of the younger readers that i met, this love of the print book as like an escape from screen, which is which was not what was anticipated, but that is, you know, like you could see there are tik tok videos of people opening books in a strange way that i just feel kind of alien to me, almost like the fact that its on paper. But it clearly is presented as this relaxing escape and yet well, i dont know print sales really did, did really get a boost during the pandemic, so maybe that kind of fits with all of that, but then audio books are kind of the book that you read so that you can multitask, really. And i mean, i think its great, but on the other hand, i know there are a lot of people who feel like its not really reading because youre not giving your full attention. It will be interesting to see where that goes, but the more popular audio books become, the more significant the performance becomes, because its not just like a simple translation from the page to the microphone. Theres another artist involved and that could make a huge, huge difference and as you were saying, brandon, he reads his own book, tolling. Yes. Thats got to be fantastic. [laughter]. Okay, i think were kind of at the point where we can take some questions. Is that i dont know. I cant tell. I thought we could tell, but im not getting any signal from card space. So while were waiting to figure out if people have questions, priscilla, you mentioned audio books, but what else do you see on the horizon in the Book Business . Well, today we acquired a book thats going to come out in four different formats immediately. One is the first is as an audio book because its by a famous artist, and then the physical book is going to s