Alliance for democracy and a senior fellow at the in your moderate for today. With that to introduce our special guest both have had the pleasure of working with. David is the author of race, america russian 100 years of covid interference. Foreignpolicy reporting going the new york times, the new yorker in foreign affairs. Steven is pursuing a doctorate in natural relations at the oxford up as a marshall scholar. He is an associate fellow at Yale University where he received his undergraduate and masters degree i got to know david his interning on Hillary Clintons president ial campaign. John brennan is a distinguished fellow he is a former scholar the university of texas in austin. His director of the Central Intelligence agency where he spent many hours in the situation room and previously served as assistant to the president , Homeland Security and counterterrorism. Specialists in middle Eastern Affairs and counterterrorism, john has received cell several awards for his contributions include the National Security federal, National Distinguished sub Public Service medal and the fbi director medallion but please join me in welcoming david shiner and john brennan. Select david like to go riding today congratulations on the release of the book for before you disseminate specific aspects can you give us an overview of what the book is about . And importantly why you wanted to write about this topic . Guest absolutely. First i doing to say thank you both for being here. Im really, really excited to talk about these issues in my book with you. I would say that i wrote this book because after 2016, after rush attacked her democracy and found it bizarre if not dangerous that operation was sort of treated as unprecedented and novel because something is unprecedented that means is no history to it. That myths and misconceptions to suit whatever you are seeking to advance. Soy sought to provide that history. I end up spending years of archives and talk an individual trying to recreate the history before the operation read what i do in this book is to map out the century long story of the electoral interference. Show how the soviet union, as well as United States use their till actions to interrupt around the world. And brushes has interfered all around the world. Look at 2016 and detail as part of that history. And use all of that background to chart out a task for the future. Not only by 2016 but everything that came before it is a general purpose of the book. Thats why it needs to be written. Thanks to david britt is a super interesting historical book. When putting this issue in Historical Context is something really interesting and necessary. Like to pick up on that. The unclassified version of the 2017 Community Assessment of russia interference in the election found that quote russias average influence the 2016 u. S. President ial election had a significant escalation in level of activity in scope of effort compared to previous opportunities break could you elaborate on how putins recent efforts are different from the past . Lawrence could speak with you again, even virtually. Im pleased to be participating in this virtual event. Because david has written a very excellent book, very well researched and written. Believes i as to the literature. Not lead to thousands eczema the years before. What happened in 2016 spars russian interference, from my perspective as it did demonstrate a much more robust intense wide ranging effort on the part of the russians. Partly thats because of the opportunities that exist when the thin the Digital Domain to cause problems. Whether it be to go in and get emails and intercept them as well as use social media platforms. But there is a really determination that putin had to undermine Hillary Clintons prospects and help donald trump. It was as though a wide ranging effort as part of the russian intelligence system. Also working with various other mechanisms such as Internet Research agency to have a fullcourt press if you will, particularly in the last six or seven months before the electio election. So the social media aspect of anything, was the one that was most surprising. But the newest elements of the russian effort but we know the russians are very, very sophisticated when it comes to operating in the cyber domain. Inside think what we saw in 2016 was a real effort to undermine the integrity of that election. As well as try to tip the balance so that the outcome is something favorable. Select that would be consistent with davids findings in the book. Much of the tactics were similar to the soviet efforts are in the cold war, it was technology proud of you want to elaborate on both what the similarities were why the Technology Peace made such a defense in your min mind. Nothing about bladder prudence operation was original. When his predecessors had done in certain instances what our country had done. Breaking that out into three components first the objectives. Help donald trump and Hillary Clinton interfered in the electorate and our politics to accomplish those three to help the people for a generation. The russian g are you targeted our voting systems to access, penetrate and open them up to manipulation. In the postwar area, and his fellow travelers manipulated voting systems across eastern europe. In recent years targeted voting systems in countries like the ukraine. So again this is the application of the idea for the United States buried the second was taking what was private. Private information about individuals in the Democratic National committee making them public. So abolishing the line between what is personal and was in in the public arena. Again thats in the kgb idea. In the 1976 president ial election, the kgb presented a forgery without the personal life of the president ial candidate and sought the senate to Media Outlets to look at is personal life to describe his political career. Instead having one forgery that is tens of thousands of real documents and to send them to newspapers upload online through wikileaks as a thirdparty cut out. They third was social media which had seen the most novel and in many ways in a real evolution. But what the russians were doing across the ira, was suppressing some voters, turning out others, sowing racial discord, scaring voters. Appealing to sort of the leaks in personal abilities. And again thats an indication be as well as a cia has done all over the world. They allowed russia to really enhances statics. The real tradition of electoral interference. But the idea behind the operation are not just well walk, but in some ways we can predict them moving forward because her 70 decades in the past. Select thank you david. I think it is all really interesting the Common Thread there. But also will come later to some of the lessons we should be drawing from with that evolutio evolution. David has mentioned here the kgb and the cia, during the cold war were engaging these kinds of operations. But one of these things davids research confirmed this after the cold war, the u. S. Moved away from engaging, but of course russia under putin had not actually both elaborated, really doubled down. I will be interested in your sentiment of the reasons for that departure . Im thinking on democracy and putins own worldview. Speech of their reasons it has evolved read certainly the United States has evolved with the russians. They are very much engaged trying to manipulate the processes and trying to shape the outcomes. During the height of the cold war in the aftermath of world war ii, really think the administration felt it was essential threat with the soviet union. They were involved in the disgrace to shape the birthing of number of countries in world war ii. Theyre working hard to ensure either liberal democracy and democratic systems were going to evolve and emerge. I think successive u. S. Administrations engaged in a lot of activities. In the public or whatever, tried to boost the prospect of governments local parties who were sympathetic to the western democratic model. I do think that u. S. Administrations in the u. S. Government has toured and seeing this exploitation of electoral system and process is that Democratic Values. And certainly when i was in the government and when i was in those circles in the white house situation, i am really relieved and argued strenuously about doing anything that is inconsistent with all those Democratic Values and ideals that we espouse globally. And i do believe the truth is more powerful than misrepresenting the facts. From now i am talking about what is the situation in 2017. I dont know the Trump Administration is doing. And how does operating on the global stage. But certainly during the obama and the bush administration, those discussions i was involved in, theres never an effort to influence the outcome of a free and fair election. We tried to strengthen the ability of the governments to hold election. That is certainly true to increase voter turnout. But not try to advance the interests of the potential outcome with one candidate or another. I do think the Global Situation is change now compared to the post world war ii environment. Ive until january of 2017, the administration i work with saw that it was best to allow these processes to play out. Thank you. Its interesting, david actually writes something that david quotes from you in his book as well, about the truth being more powerful. You are among several who are staunch opponents of using the idea of disinformation to counter russians own efforts for a think its important concept. A lot of conversations on the policy side, that we hear about countering for an interference printer countering information. I think the tendency why dont we do the same thing back. I think that you made it very eloquent and really critical points about how the values and principles of democracy need to be guiding not only our response but are tire approach. It think it is important for the United States to remember that we are fighting for principles and the Democrat Foundation in the country. We should never stoop to using the tactics of other countries. Whether we are fighting the russians, whether we are fighting fascism, modernday. Whether we are biting military efforts. I think we really have quite a few and our vote that we can us use. And not stray from those basic principles and ideals. To make this country truly what it aspires to be. Which is a beacon of freedom and liberty. One that is built on ideals. I think being dishonest on the world stage. Being dishonest anywhere is so counterproductive. That is why i am particularly dismayed by what i see. to double down on truth as we are something were seeking to protect and not allow it to be undermined. David, one thing you discuss in your book is why u. S. Democracy promotion efforts are different from election interference. In previous work ive done i laid out three key distinctions and id be interested in your reaction. First is that promotion in other countries openly and transparently. Secondly democracy is may available to parties if they commit ode to the democratic process, and u. S. Policy tries to give people a voice in determine thing countrys future. In other words u. S. Democracy is about strengthening the democratic process and foreign interference is for it marks a evolution of American Foreign policy in the since that as director brennan said during the cold war the threat was an ideology and the strategy was to contain the ideology and using covert axe to prop up anticommunist candidates a logical case to be made. The post cold war period, promoting democracy and one of the people i interviewed what president bill clinton who said he much preferred using organizations like ndi, iri, u. S. Democracy promotion organizes to shore up elect troll processes over cia covert actions for a couple of reasons. One being that is public cannot be dramatically outed. So the opinion is that its visible, that you know what america is doing and what america is doing to achieve its objectives which is to make sure countries can hold stable, free and Fair Elections which contrasts with the russian objective which is to degrade democracy, undermine democracy and the is that, therefore, parallel between our objective of strengthening versus theirs of undermining it all over the world which is a really important point. Other folk is interviewed were the president of montenegro who the russian intelligence tried to asass. The former president of colombia who said their democracy was under seem to sow discord. Promoting democracy makes sense in our current environment because it helps to mitigate the effectiveness of the russian effort to tear democratic systems down by subverting elections and undermining elections. Really interesting. Director brennan on the point that david raises but other countries facing russias tactics, i think in the u. S. We have a tendency in our american exceptionallist ways to think the challenges we face are exceptional to us, but in fact this is not a challenge that is exceptional to us. Vladimir putins russian has been engaging in these tactics across the european stage as well as in other parts of the world. Think david noted we need to understand the history in which russias 2016 operation was occurring, and i think its also important we understand the broader global context in the these tactics playing out. Im interested in your reflections on what you have seen in terms of russian interference operations in other countries as well as if we need to be doing more in fact to work with our partners and allies, just as we would on any traditional Security Threat to really actually put together more of a Coalition Effort around protecting sanctity of our democracies. The way the russians before them tried to influence the u. S. Elections for men decade they have been edge gauged on the effort in a global scale and global stage and i think theyre more active in other countries than in the United States. Thats why things for many years i was looking at and tracking, russia would like to affect the outcomes of elections and political challenges in other countries so that they can have in those countries governments and politicians and individuals individuals who have even more sympathetic to russian policy goals and objectives. I dont think the russians like to roll over borders with tanks and then russian troops. Ukraine is a different case. But to the extent they can attract, influence the outcome of elections and have independent politicians who will be in governments so they can get them to support maybe a lessening of sanctions against russia, get them to support rarous russian initiatives at the u. N. Or other places. This is a very, very active russian effort. Whether or not you are talking about europe or africa ya or asia to influence the outcome of these political elects or political struggles, so that people will rise to the top who are going to either, i by design or just we happenstance, be the ones to support russian initiatives. So, russia uses a lot of different tactics, whether its money that guess to their preferred candidates, sending out propaganda, disinformation to denigrate the prospect for candidates they want to lose an election of its very active. We have talked with a lot of our partners over the years. I was involved in a number of discussions they foreign counterparts about the types of tactics and practices the russians use. So i think there needs to be greater awareness and i know were focused on russia right now but i would say its not limited to russia as far as the opportunities for a number of foreign countries, governments s and intelligence services, to try to influence the outcome of those electoral systems. Thanks. Actually as a point i want to come back to what were seeing from other actors, particularly i think authoritarian regimes who find this tool kitt to be particularly appealing, whether it influences the outcome of an election are so simply undermine and weaken the democratic foundationoftheir competitors as a way of weakening from within. This is a tool kitt that is proliferating, although i think there are distinctions amongst Different Actors based on longterm strategies which id like to unpack etchll come back to that in a moment. David, stick with the history point of this, just for another couple of minutes, one of the something conclusions for me that you reached is that even during the cold war, there was a difference in the u. S. And soviet tactics when it came to covert electoral enter phoenix, that u. S. Tactics were rooted in democratic process itself even when seeking to pervert it and the soviet approach was corrupting activities that have little to do with the democratic process. You say these reflect the characteristics of states that execute them and in particular you point to the different domestic experiences of intelligence agencies so id be interested if you could talk more but why you found that to be the case and then director brennan given your extensive background, ask now to reflect on this particular point as well. I would say there are two key differents in the soviet and now russian and the american approach as to covert electoral interference. First as you have been talk about and as we mentioned, russias moved toward this practice in the post cold war period where america moved away from it except in rare exceptions such as in serbia. The core objectives is attacks underlying them and across them tee soviet systemic objective and now russias systemic objective is to tear down democracy. The first the very first soviet operations to too this sort of thing in 1919 where with the express purpose of lenin to topple dramatic systems, abolish National Borders and create a communist international utopia, through lies, deceit, through disinformation, to through bribe by, bla