Investigative reporter covering a story and i was really blown away by the fact when you cover stories were powerful interests are trying to shape them and youre not getting the true picture. We will talk about all that today. Carter can we start with you giving a little brief background about your education. Where you went to school, and very briefly your job experience in career . Guest yes, sherrill, think its much during this today its great to be with you. I grew up in Dutchess County new york. And i received eight nomination into the u. S. Naval academy which i started a week after graduating high school in 1989. And so i completed annapolis and was then commissioned in the u. S. Navy and served the u. S. Navy first as an armscontrol action officer during International Arms control negotiations and the pentagon. And then i moved into michael served on a couple of Surface Warfare ships. A couple navy ships in the atlantic than in the middle eas east. Host dont you have a couple of degrees . Guest i have been sort of a lifelong student. Although i joke around that when i was in annapolis, i dropped out in my junior year. But i have always been studying. Just because i have been working throughout that period, so i studied at night and go to night classes and stuff. So for example when i work at the pentagon i did my masters in National Security at georgetown across in the pentagon. And then while i was a Research Fellow at the Foreign Relations in new york, i did my mba in international business. At new york university. Host its worth mentioning that because if people follow any of your story, they likely heard you are not to in intelligent kind of hapless guy. And when i learned about your great bunch of background and learn more about you, i realize that is a not a clear representation of what you had done. I also think we should certainly be the beginning of this conversation with how you came to work in russia. Because if not for your presence in russia for business, at some point in time, they may not have had what some called an excuse to wiretap you for some would say to get to President Trump. So explain first of all why you were in russia. Some people act like it is so suspicious to go to russia or do business there. And actually many thousands of businesspeople from the United States live and work in russia. Guest it is ironic and awake, sharyl, i am a free market sky. And that was my other degree. I did tha that the university of london in oriental studies looking at affairs and thinking about how, i did a big Research Project on the tensions between capitalist and socialist approaches and different emerging markets in society. And what of the case studies i did, was on russia. My first time into russia was actually during the late soviet period in the summer of 1991. Just a few months before the soviet union, and i was part of the First Exchange program between the u. S. Naval academy and the soviet people as well. Ive been working over there in various capacities. Again as i mentioned when i was an independent i did a lot of u. S. russia armscontrol negotiations. When i got out and i was on the council for Foreign Relations i did a Research Project with central asia, caspian sea basin. In the course russia is one of the country is on the caspian sea. So i have done a lot of work in developing markets in general. With russia in particular it is a key emerging markets. I did a lot of work there. And eventually, you know, it is kind of on the interface between capitalist and socialist types of approaches with the end of communism that president reagan worked on in terms of transition to freemarket society. I was really inspired by that growing up. And i decided that i wanted to contribute to that process. Suet there was a time in the nottoodistant past when people who worked in russia for the United States were not viewed automatically with suspicion because this was encouraged by our government as we try to help from what was the soviet union to something more we hoped, to a market economy like ours. And then your base therefore a Financial Company lived there . Guest yeah, me and another guy opened Merrill Lynch, u. S. Investment britain interim bank. We open an office there in 2004 for it is kind of related to the overall transition to the market approaches. Because in 1998, Merrill Lynch was one of the few banks that decided there is a big world wide emerging markets crisis. Russia got particularly hit hard there. And merrill decided theyre going to shut down the office. So we fast forward six years later, and russia has been the biggest, fastest Growth Market in the world. Theres a lot of privatization going on. More of a transition towards freemarket approaches. So me and another guy ended up heading over there to open the Merrill Lynch office. Suet and last point on this. And this all plays a big part of the story of what ultimately happened to you. But of course it is not unusual if you are a businessman in the former soviet union, because of the way the economy works if you are doing business with a russian jew or essence coming in contact with russian government officials. And you are in essence coming into contact knowingly or not coming into contact with people who spy for russia. Those who work for intelligence with the russian government is that right . Guest absolutely. Ed again, i had a philosophy at the time that is useful to tell the truth and help serve your country to the greatest extent that you can. That was my philosophy when i served in the navy throughout those years. In my head through a lot of different work i had done, various contacts in the u. S. Intelligence community. And some people i know, asked me for help. Again i always serve my country in various capacities if its an eagle scout, catholic altar boy, or serving my community. As well as in the navy. When i was asked, i was more than happy to help. Again with the view that it is useful to provide accurate and insightful information. And since i had lived and worked there throughout, for now it has been over 25 years, it would be useful to provide some insights which could be helpful to our country. Host so you having been a source of the pastor information for our fbi and cia, ended up really being the thing that drove the nail in the coffin in this operation that the government had against you and essentially the Trump Campaign, will get to that of a moment. But the book, abuse of power tells a story paid work and people order the book, carter . Theres a website carter page book. Com, that gives all kinds of options in terms of where, whatever bookseller you prefer, amazon, the full range there. It is all available at carter page book. Com. In case people dont who i am which is understandable, im Investigative Reporter with history of working at pbs, cnn, ivan independent show now called full measure on sinclair tv show which you can find online. And ive written my new book is called slanted, how the news Media Censorship and hate journalism carter page and i have something in common. Our stories are different but they both involved the government having surveilled this. An improper or unlawful way. That is what chapter nine of carters book focuses on. Its called overcoming the abuses against american democracy it talks about surveillance in mind to read a short passage from that. And then you can provide some context. He wrote in this chapter, the illegitimate case against me reveals several other forms of dysfunction. Document the government spying on you. I was targeted with applications for fisa surveillance the applications were filed under title i defined me as a possible agent of a foreign power. Now as an aside, you have provided intelligence for intelligent agencies but they are secretly wiretapping claiming that you could be spying for the russians. And you write, but i was not the only target. With my surveillance the federal government could make to hops from you in other words listen in on people who were talking to you and people who were communicating with them which would include stealing your private data, private data from steve bannon for example, and Steve Bannons context, donald trump. In this respect, the carter page warrant or said direct result on the first and Fourth Amendment right of all americans. People from across the philological spectrum see it as an american issue. As this unfolded, when did you start to believe that they werent just after you, they were trying to get to perhaps President Trump or perhaps others on the campaign . Two its interesting sharyl. I actually threw my contact in the intelligence community, i had someone give me a heads up. Even before one of the main defamatory articles which was used by the cold me fbi to get this fraudulent warrant. That was way back in septembe september 2015. A contact of mine with ties to the Intel Community told me that the democrats had paid quote unquote Opposition Research people to dig up dirt on then candidate trump and his supporters such as me. So i knew that they were in the process of trying to come up with these lies. Primarily with the initial idea of pumping it out to the media. And getting people to a real campaigns mayor to deceive american voters. Again this is just a couple months, less than a couple of months between 2016 election. And then sure enough on september 23, 2016, even though im getting all kinds of questions from reporters, finally the washington post, new york times, cnn theyre all after me about these same false allegations which the democrats had paid for. And their consultants were trying to push out in every way possible. Finally they found someone who is immediate organization thats either unethical enough or gullible enough or possibly bot both, to go ahead and publish this article on friday, september 23, 2016. And really the rest is history. This is one of the elements imparted this election interference where these false stories were used as a way, part of the fraudulent fisa affidavits against myself as a way of spying on so many people that i was associated with. Other Trump Campaign volunteers say by way of summary the things that were said about you secret wiretap that you were already acting as a russian spy because of the qualifications you cannot wiretap somebody in our society. You are not supposed to on a hunch or a fishing expedition. You have to already evidence in hand in some other way that youre acting as a russian spy, terrorist, or eminently about to become one. And the very fact that they wiretap to four times over the course of a year without any evidence, to charge her with anything or do anything about it, seems to belie the notion youre eminently about to do anything, by their own claims. But part of this evidence claimed that you had visited russia and made improper contact with certain russian government officials as a liaison for the Trump Campaign. Is that if there summary . Guest i think it is. I think it is important, interesting insight. And it goes back to your personal story in terms of having to deal with similar things like this. I notes part of your ongoing battles into courts related to this. It is very similar to what we have seen over the last several years for Senate Judiciary chairman, Lindsey Graham. You have been making various allegations with a lot of basis to it. And unfortunately, people within the u. S. Government department of justice, which handles all civil litigation and investigation such as this, they, unfortunately have not been very supportive at all in terms of providing full information about what happens is precisely the same thing that Senate Judiciary chairman, Lindsey Graham and so many of his colleagues in congress have been fighting for so hard. I think we are all in this battle together. It is very much the focus of this chapter here in terms of understanding everything that is at stake in how it affects so many people such as your self, myself, leaders in congress that are just trying to protect Civil Liberties. And so it is a very long, complicated story. I try to make it as simple and understandable as possible with this chapter. While also illustrating what exactly is at stake just given the civil rights abuses or potential abuses they were all susceptible here. Host lets call the ultimate catch22. It is the very intelligence and part of the government committing the abuses but also in charge of holding the perpetrators accountable. And you find they have no desire to do that or to provide the information that would allow us to do that and courts. They hold all of the cards. And this is what is so dangerous about it. It didnt just happen to you and it didnt just happen to me. My investigation said there are many operations hundreds if not thousands of people involved over short time periods, long time. In other administrations. Not just one administration. There probably to me people to count to have been involved in potential abuses of their Constitutional Rights that we may never know. He also wrote in chapter nine, being a department of justice lawyer Michael Horwitz revealed that the breakdown in surveillance is been much worse and we originally realized. In examination done of 29 of these buys at wiretap applications that were reviewed for possible abuse after they learned about yours, all 29 had serious deficiencies. Think about this. And in several cases Inspector General could not even find the documents that show the fbi mandatory processes were followed. The Inspector General revealed something that is been apparent to many for long time you write, the whole system of secret surveillance is broken. And thats abuses getting if the heart of how does it impact people. So they said this happened to carter page maybe will get redressed in the end. This is much bigger than that is in it . Guest yes, absolutely. Theres so many different dimensions and challenges related to it. And again is a little bit of a spectrum. As you are saying this is a serious problem that is happened for impacts all americans on the one hand. But also, often, i think this is a core element of First Amendment liberties, First AmendmentConstitutional Rights. In addition to having freedom of the press, there is also freedom of thought and freedom of peaceable assembly. So many freedoms inherent in the First Amendment. And unfortunately what you have some times is when people have a different view, over and people such as yourself might Say Something which is not exactly what the powers that be and again the incident that started with me happened during the Obama Biden Administration. Sometimes you have pretty harsh political activists working to achieve their political objective. Sue and this is a great story, the why think youre about to tell. This is an out of while insights when i interviewed you for my program, full measure. Because when they say white target carter page. Theres some evidence they were looking for anyone surrounding President Trump. Best Case Scenario they really thought trump was a russian spy so theyre looking for russian ties. Worst Case Scenario theyre looking for excuses, anyone whod been to russia had experience in that region to try to justify a wiretap to be able to listen in on them. But you with your experience with some of the fbi, they talked with you in a time period, was of the boston bombing . Take it from there. Susie well, it is funny. Back right after the boston bombing in the first half of 2013, i was helping the fbi with a particular russian spy case in new york. And unfortunately, i was writing some various ideas in terms of the certain approaches that should be taken. Id recently written a little academic article. I had offered this in one of my meetings with the fbi agent. I had mentioned my various perspective to them. And i think what we have seen is just a real severe bias. This big Inspector General report which led into this a major investigation. The initial isa abuse report that the Trump Campaign and myself, that were inflicted upon us. I mean that was a very serious issue. But unfortunately, it extends far beyond that. One of the elements of that, one of the big debates is the Inspector General horwitz, and obama appointee said that well, we dont find any political bias here. Its an interesting conclusion and a lot of people who actually know, pushback on this really hard. On the face of it, there is a ton of evidence of political bias. And unfortunately, and its very similar to what we are talking about, that you had to do with, chairman Lindsey Graham in so many members of congress have had to deal with in terms of getting the truth, it is only part of the story. I always refer to it is garbage in garbage out, right . So this Inspector General report, they interviewed 100 witnesses. And read over a million documents as part of their overall review. Unfortunately a lot of the same perpetrators were the same people the