About the far right, white supremacist, from the streets to the white house, we will spread out globally we will be looking at it historically, well probably deal with terms like fascism and populism and nationalism. Before we do that, i want to spend just a moment talking about what we are going to do with the technology. Number one, we are asking all the videos stay off. So we dont get video bombed and that we use all of our bandwidth for the conversation as opposed to video. Number two, to ask questions rather than doing it orally, what we are going to ask you to do is to type your questions into the chat box, to do that if youre familiar with resume if you run your cursor across the screen you will see at the bottom of a box that says chat, click on chat and you will see off to the right hand side of your screen a line at the bottom where you can type it in your questions and comments. As we go through this discussion with Larry Rosenthal if youd be good enough to type in your questions as they happen, they come directly to me, they will not be shared with the rest of the group because we suspect there may be some trolls here who might want to bomb us with hatred and rage. We had just assumed not have all you sure that it will come to me and thats fine, i dont mind being there psychiatrist for the afternoon. If you would simply put your check questions and comments as they arrive just put them in there and we will talk with larry for about 50 or 55 minutes, that we will then take a five minute come back and take more questions, we will leave as much time as possible for that so that its interactive as possible with you. Thats how we are going to do it today, let me know do the formal introduction of doctor lawrence rosenthal, the chair and lead researcher of the Berkeley Center for rightwing studies. Which he founded in 2009. Is taught at uc berkeley in the sociology and Italian Studies Department and was a abhe set up the right in the United States and italy, hes currently working on a study of the contemporary american right in comparison of moments of the right in 20th century europe. Hes written several books, hes appeared in many a periodical and hes the author of a forthcoming book this fall from new press, listen to the title because its very interesting and they give us direction for where we are going the title of his new book empire of resentment populisms characters. Who is it we are finding in not only the current rightwingers in the current George Floyd Protests also one of the extraordinary facts of this extraordinary moment is that we have had two movements with people on the streets in large numbers consecutively one after the other, the first was the antilockdown demonstrations the people who were fed up with being told to stay indoors and so forth. Than that followed without any interruption by the George Floyd Protests. So about the antilockdown protest was that most of the people there were right when i think of as rightwing populist, those who dont like to use the term populist to deal with rightwingers but if we go down that road we will never find our way back. Nine financial crisis has had. And there was economic insecurity. The same thing is true with the coronavirus. The sense of economic insecurity is very deeply felt. The way the argue about those things, is in terms of their notion of freedom that their rights were being violated. Lawrence rosenthal back in the tea party, scholars is a call that point of view populist, constitutionalism. And what it meant was these right wing populist argued what the constitution meant. And how law should be understood. It should not be simply in the hands of the elites like the lawyers and judges. That individuals can make their own determinations about those questions. What happened in the anti clock down demonstrations was essential that populist ritualism as it was called by scholars, sort of mutated into populist epidemiology. Which was the assertion that these fancy doctors can tell us what to do. And they dont know better than we do. In a couple of things about tea party in 2009 is that to some extent carried over. One was at the beginning of the tea party, there were attempts by White Nationalists an extreme gun enthusiast. To kind of take over the tea party to make the tea party and here to their particular points of view in their particular issue. Into the two parties credit, the kind of resisted that. Things begin difference with the anti lockdown. So where youve got guys and we will get to this for you to call themselves the big boys movies. And through. These rallies. So we have key party populist. The next category is funny because this is the is not talk about all that much more. Im sure you remember this. The all right is ideologically driven. In their ideology is life nationalism. Very selfconscious and they are subconsciously in the tradition of a fascist in the ku klux klan in the 1,900,000 traditions. It was after what was called the battle of berkeley in 2017, that was in april. That the head of authorized, Richard Spencer. He declared after that streetfighting cat things had changed the ultrasound. It is no longer just going to control people online. Another going to fight in the streets. In the wake of you to this was that is he put it, miramar which means that he was making the analogy to clean nasi germany. With the republic. In the way he characterized it was that you would have as he called fragmentation of american politics is going to move to extreme polarization because you have the left and the right. Fighting it out on the streets and as he says for space and for ideological. And in this sense, as was recently said, the antivenom is a gift to this point of view. And it is, the position of the all right and this is that increasingly people are going have to choose and they will choose the right over the left. And what isnt important to about this is the extent to which it has been echoed in effect on the Trump Administration. The Trump Administration had given great credence to the idea that the violence was something owed to ntfs first called it a couple of years ago, left. And then it was equivalent. Now it is they are the ones. In this plays very much into the strategy of Richard Spencer. In the third category of people of the booboo people. Is there word derived from the 1980, i dont know great deal about it but, below, and is about more about the time is come for civil war in america. These people are not as distinct let us say from the albright and that White Nationalism is in their explicit ideology. It is not guns. These are a sensually gun rights activist who have been extreme for any years. And what they have gone with this moment. That is sometimes called acceleration is him. Which is the idea the time is come. The moment is right for this boogaloo as it is now called. The coming of the american civil war. The interesting thing the man 40 thing to understand is a call themselves via ois. Not only are they gun rights extremists. Not only are they talking about civil war but very fundamental is been anti police. So the presence of police is a provocation to them. As these demonstrations have gone on. And let me draw the analogy here with the way in which as with the right point of view, this kind of entails with a little bit of what we are getting from the Trump Administration. And at one point, have a here from trump. He says i can tell that i have the support of the police. The support of the military, the support of the bikers for trump. He has constituted authority with gangs. So this gives legitimacy to the boogaloo. In a way that was not available before. Hes goes on to say that he is a tough people but they dont play attempt unlike the antivenom as he was saying previously. They go to a certain point and it would be very bad. So with that i would say so much for the smithsonian. Thank you for opening it that way larry. Youve opened the pandoras box. We go down and in. The first thing was rescuers can you attach numbers to this for you to be french. Nb, in the george floyd demonstrations trying to create violence. Lawrence rosenthal yes. There are number of false incidents that have been documented. Their numbers. It is always very hard to talk about the number they are a relatively friendly phenomenon. If they have been mobilized and considerable numbers beautiful full. In this. I do not know anyone is in a position to attach as any peop people. They also belong to a tradition. Not only guns enthusiast, and extremist but also this very idea of the civil war has a long history of almost 40 years. There has been the kind of right wing militia tennessee of the day would be an event that somebody would do something and it would spark law. It would stop a war. It often go as a place for. So for example, in. Bill sokol let me stop you right there. Raising the issue on race and i want to focus on that. In view of the george floyd demonstration and what is been happening for the last three weeks, i noticed that you assess that label kind of White Nationalists. They withdrew it when you came to the boogaloo voice. And going to pin you down. How central is White Supremacy and deepseated racism to the far right here in america. Lawrence rosenthal it is fundamental. There is a history of its. And it not go away. The whole life is devoted to it. If the albright believes that american white americans are being displaced by othe others. Those others tend to be dark skinned. And when they are particularly nasty juice. And so, there is that side of things which is strongly racist. In mind, it is blurry to between that and what is going on with the acceleration us but they are particularly emphasizing than rights. And in some of them, they are sympathetic to the george floyd story because it was at the hands of the police. It is not entirely clear cut but in answer to your larger question of replace of race if this, is fundamental. Bill sokol now wanted to try say as we talk about this friend movement. Obviously very different somethings happened with the arrival trump and the president and the question is is he one of them. Do we now have the far right and control the white house if you will. Or is he simply using them i suppose the question. Lawrence rosenthal fell from the point of view on the off right and presumably i dont know this for a fact. But it is likely to the point of view acceleration us. His vehicle to them. They understand trump has certainly from the point of view of the alt right but not one of them someone who had allowed the politics to come into the mainstream. Lawrence rosenthalbill sokol be inviting them and he wants to use them. Which allows me to ask you for half century or so, i avoided using the word fascism. I would say to my i would say come on, it is not fascism, and democrats but it was. Horrible it was. But now it seems to be, it may be time to start using that word and when asked he was a historian if the italian fascism and as well as german fascism. Can we start to use that term when we talk about trump and the far right here in the u. S. Lawrence rosenthal then they give you an introduction to that answer which is that i agree with you that word fascism was used loosely. Both on the left and the right. It was on either side the term of choice or dissing people. Oh yeah hes just a fascist. It was in everything. And that has changed. And as soon as donald trump came down his escalator, he had the most serious discussion of fascism in this country in my lifetime. Not just on the left. It was on right. People like robert kagan who was with the neoconservatism. Early on in the Trump Campaign which was this is a americans were to fascism. And you had albright book which is fascism rated so there was a serious discussion of fascism. This was during Trump Campaign. But it wasnt fascism. It wasnt because fascism is movement. Required a private militia. Which trump, with all is talking about not the crap out of that person is valleys. A work is in the car ready for the gift of that person. All of his omen to violence, did not bring about an organized that his life militia. And without that, it was not fascism. What you need in addition to that to be concern to be fascist. What is evaporated things. Is over, to redlines. One is militia. And we can come back to that because w. It. Bill sokol we shall. Lawrence rosenthal and the other is what comes about in the german case in the nasi case, it was called the enabling law. And with the enabling law did was in allowed them to move 5degree. An essential wai way neutralized his entirety the German Parliament and is coming into power in a legitimate way. But it neutralized it. In italy as well there was the enabling act. In the enabling act in germany, it came via whereas a result of burning. It was likely it false flag then by the themselves. So you have this movement where you have an emergency followed by essential wai way depriving the legislature of any power. Bill sokol soleri. Lawrence rosenthal that is the second line in the sand. The second fascist one to cross. Sue an okay cyclist would argue the trump is not yet have the emergence to declare himself the allpowerful dictator. But with respect, this go this way for money rita wouldve agreed with you relatively recently. He doesnt but now, he has to it seems to me, not exactly private but isis now 20 30000. Literally brown shirts who report directly to the executive branch. The course have no authority over them. The executive branch says, in the course of the covid19 demonstrations and in the george floyd demonstrations, we are sending ice, not to do with the border but to deal with unrest in los angeles and the south. Am i going to use ice. As our troops and then the second element that i wanted through and for you to discuss. Lets do this separately. Leslie the police inside. What about the fact that he now has around church melissa hundred militia called ice. It would seem like one step away. When emergency to get him authoritarian control. Do we then follow fascism. Lawrence rosenthal i would say that more disturbing than even the place of ice or have been other ones called out. The bureau of arms. Bill sokol also alcohol and tobacco norms. Lawrence rosenthal what is more disturbing of the guys up in the street with no badges. With no affiliation. That is closer to the dedicated militia and anything we have ever seen. There are those who refer to them as the little green men which comes from the description of russian soldiers in Eastern Ukraine while there place there is being tied. So that is very compelling. That is very close to the line of a private militia or a dedicated militia. When hitler came to power, he was part of this party the way the organs of the fascist party natalie became organs of the Italian Government under mussolini. There is something quite worrisome with respect to the specter if youve wealth of fascism about the development from recent developments. Bill sokol into the rabbit hole. I want now, we talk about the alt right in the Trump Administration and the relationship there. This is not to talk about police reform. With us to about policing. Imagine will address of the people. I do want to ask you as the george floyd demonstrations continue, there been some 10000 unrest across the country. There been a hundred and 30 journalists arrested. Rubber bullets being used. People being rather that when their people died peacefully protested so they can be arrested. How you define the place of Police Forces with respect to far right White Supremacy, fascism. What we do with the fact that the police asked intimate bad apples in the barrel. There seems to be some kind of real unified action with trump of course meeting with a has a Police Forces saying im with you 100 percent. It is interesting because in the longstanding fantasy on the militia right about the civil war, there would be the spark and then the patriots would rise up. And when the resident, they would be joined by the police. And by the military. And to some extent, the distinction that we are seeing the difference hosting between the military and the police, is a statement by the general methods which really took the top down a peg. Very seriously about what he was doing with respect to the constitution. So in terms of the army have the potential for joining in the civil war for private militia, there is a kind of obstacle and they had of the armed forces. And it is based on the proper understanding of constitutional roles. It is interesting though that i think the trump. It is hard to know what is selfconscious yes. Because is largely uneducated. And not a person who understands political strategy and anything other than what appears to be, what happens tomorrow kind of thing did summa like what i see on tv tonight. Lawrence rosenthal when you take Something Like, you remember the case of gallagher. He was tried by the military court for homicides in iraq. And trump intervened during his courtmartial and afterwards to have an he had the secretary of defense do this. Gallagher sentenced diminished. Trump is actually going beyond. He has making connections that goes around, does not in. Because around the rest of the military which is not going to support him. And perhaps therefore is developing among the right lingers in the service in one of course remembrance, Timothy Mcveigh who was with isaac that. And with the police, it is not seem to be this constitutional work at the top. That would resist militarization of the police at all. But the place of the police as enforcing trump ideals and trumps policies. So that is the kind of end of the longstanding fantasy of what is going to happen. Bill sokol larry, we talked about the White Supremacy, we go to the trump lighthouse move now talked about police and the military. To go in another direction now. Funny thing is the role of affection for the intertwining for lack of the religious right. Even fellow. Churches have always supported from. I think historically correct me if im wrong, nina german fascism nor italians dependent on Close Relationships with the church yet. Seems to me you that we have the relationship between trump and write. And ch