Chat. And again when we are planning this tour i cant wait to get into the conversation. And again this is not anything that we ever wouldve amended when we were all having or towards the end of last year but we are adaptable. We will take in that we know any of you are watching right now probably could not have physically gotten here tonight. But you can join us virtually. Again, i will reiterate. You should treat this is if you are in the bookstore. It when youre in the bookstore for reading, then you buy books. So please do that. And it would be great if they were debbies books. But really, buy a lot of books. You know by just one opening the bookstore coming by a lot of books. But i imagine debbie, needs no introduction. But i will just briefly say. I think was what is great if you look at her body of work, you see two very strong claims. Amongst the social justice and the theme of defining america and who gets to define america. She is dennis and looks like freedom summer and essentially an of the books. She did it in the interesting intersection with the 60s trilogy. And she got so much acclaim for that. Now shes done it again with penn state. Its a Remarkable Book as anybody or knows me knows, i believe one of the best things that i have worked on as an editor and 25 years. I think it is a masterpiece. I think it is a book that defies adversary station and basically as with the 60s trilogy, some people, they just like the novel forms. They liked novels embraced trait forward away. When debbie is done in this part of her career she has decided to push the limit of what a book can do. And so rather than just sort of sitting back and accepting first genre and conforming her story to the genre, she will in fact invent our own place to tell the story. The trilogy, she invented the documentary novel its a way of getting this wide look at the 60s. In the choices that were being made. And not all the conflicts that were being there and then with penn state, she wanted to tell the story with not just with one voice but any. So again she invented a form that fits the story perfectly. So it is an honor to work with you always debbie. But it is certainly wonderful to get to talk to you about this extraordinary book. I will get to the questions of how this book came to be buried in the writing process and editing process. One thing i will start with the obvious question. Just as we did not anticipate last having Virtual Events and being in this world that we are in a month in the big strand of where we are right now is a cultural protest. And everything that is happening when we think about penn state when they thought everything was going on. From the people protests, trump, to guessing people so they can go and hold bible up. Its just theory how does come all around again. Heres the scary part but often the inspiring parts as well. So it hasnt been like. He spent researching life and interrogating penn state in your mind. And then this is the world we are in. What has been going through your mind and looking at our world the lenses of the book. Seated before i answer the question, going to turn off the lights. Because i think youre giving me feedback. Use of marriage. [silence]. Debbie i think that will help. How is that, as a better. So one of the things, will first of all. It is unbelievable. We could not have planned this. This book came out in a pandemic but at the same time that the United States is over the same sorts of issues and we were looking at during this time pending the home worked in all of the things going on. And define campus billing for students and one being denied. And they were exercising their First Amendment rights. So what is so inspiring to see right now is the people who are doing the very thing. Getting out there and exercising their First Amendment rights. So its testing. The rallying on having their voices heard. Free speech and say what you feel and what you believe in and have the right to do that. It is also been scary to watch the National Guard be called out. And once again, even more militarized now than it was in 1970. To look at the scenario. Really to talk about this is that it doesnt happen again. And here we are again. Such a surreal time. Im grateful to have written the book in the response that we have had so far. Terminus people are picking this up from wordofmouth. And then posting in various places saying, thats just like today. The echoes of today. Back in 1970, are amazing. Ive been humbled i guess its really it. It just really humbled by it. That response in the middle of a pandemic has been overwhelming. Catechins at this right back to you too. I want to say thank you for always being such risk takers with me. I knew this was a receipt for nine in the 60s trilogy books for a big risk. But one thing is led to another. And how can we make this happen even to the new book that we are now working on. So thank you for that. Good to talk to you. It is so good to see you two. [laughter]. Last time i think i saw you was in january. And we were talking about being on the road together. And here we are. David and here we are again. All of the festivals. Debbie and now it is july. And for a book or any book to come out. You are shepherding a lot of them. Any book to come out without bookstores thing to support it. When a particularly trusting atmosphere right now to be able to buy and share books to get them out there. Get the word out. And to be able to tell her stories. Does that answer the question. David it does. Think what is interesting is looking at sort of what is selling. What if people want to read. What bookstores are promoting. What is fascinating to me is there is this question of relevance. Who wants to read books that are relevant. Which i love because i think it shows that people are reading to try to figure things out. A lot of times we read for escapism but now people are largely ready for engagement. And i think your book is one where people are engaging. Debbie is good here. David of sort of witness some people talk to you before the book came out about having read it. So lets talk a little bit about the response. Because i feel that there are two things here. Youre getting some various tense responses from people with very personal connections to penn state but also youve gotten some intense responses from people who have really had no idea about this. And can you talk about some of those things that people have shared with you. Debbie limit backup just a bit to say that ive always known about it because when i was 16, just three days before my 17th birthday. The National Guard open fired. Unindent Charleston South Carolina and my dad was stationed at the air force base there and not see him for two years because he was in and out but he was flying supplies to vietnam and bodies home. Bodies and bodies and bodies. In the fortress were growing from 68 70. And then the day, may 4th, 1970. The National Guard they opened fired. It was all we can talk about. We were almost the age of the kids who were killed. They were teenagers. To 19 yearolds to 20 yearolds. Missus scary. Our friends were on the cusp. And the entire country responded to this has one. Weve done that at the beginning of the pandemic and we seen this happening after the murder of george floyd. The whole country did that and was just amazing. Fifty years have gone five. In same sort of background for younger people. And just like with the 60s, i watched young people especially to know that they are in the cusp of change in choice. And heres the American History. Heres the myriad of threads to fall into an. Its not just about People Places and dates. Spell all the stuff that happened makes a mosaic of what happened during that time. We are living through this amazing time right now. Its a real. But it is amazing. So i come across people have never heard about what happened there and i think really. This is nonfiction. This is fiction. Did you make the separated its actually really happened. Its almost shocking because it was just a part of my life. All my life. So i have never forgotten it tonight always wanted to write about it. And i always pushed it away because it was horrific. And when i wrote anthem, the last book of the 60s trilogy. He kept running into this i created this and i kept putting Little Things over there. And saving stuff. And then eventually we had a conversation and i said will, i guess theres just no way that i cant write about this. Because i talk about it. Kids had never heard of this. Kent state. And even adults. In a gone away. Its so fundamental to who we are as a democracy. It would happen there is so fundamental to our freedom. And so important to remember. David solis talk about again, ththe next conversation is how write this book. It was one of the best editorial conversations i have had is another. We genuinely started the conversation having no idea with the answer it was going to be. And then we basically came to a really good answer. So can you talk about that. What you were debating and how you were telling the story in sort of what led you to tell story this way. Debbie this is the fun part. Writing was excruciating with the fun part is like dreaming. Dream about it, you imagine it, every author who writes has that mom or your like i cannot do this it is too hard. But i had a vast of a mountain of material mountains of materials. And then i would say okay this is it, next. And actually the natural progression in answer from the kent state. Anthem is big. Its massive. The scrapbooks from everyone. I had all of that material. There is so much of it. Photographs and records and papers. Newspaper articles. An opinion pieces. It just seemed like there was so much. Theres a place to go with kent state university. Soon i talked to mention all of this. I had no idea to get into the storyline prayed and 60s trilogy. In it by itself. It is part of this because theres this end of this anthem of the day it cant state, of may 4th, 1970. And i did that purposely because i was dreaming already of writing about it. So when we talked. You may remember it differently. But one of the things that i remember is both of us talking about honey tell a story that in so any different opinions. Because when i did find in the mountain of information was that the child that some people said you shouldve killed more of them which is horrific. National guard said we didnt want to be there. And there were outside agitators. And the students were saying guard of the campus is not was the most important thing. In the administration could not agree on anything. So where would you land. How do you tell the story. And then we both read recently in both of us have loved this book. In the book, theres all of these voices. There these people who are arguing and talking and agreeing. Everybody just having this Big Conversation throughout the whole book for you and theyre all sort you an American History at the same time. Generational history. He learned so much. And these are all coming to conversation. And we both stopped for a minute. It was like and you are the one i think it came up with the idea of collective memory. And you said, in the event in history as a collection of stories. A collection all the people who were there. All the people who experienced it and went through whatever it was. The ring so true to me in this when i think it began to jail. So to remember. David no yes. So you can boil some things down to that phrase collective memory. The minute we had that. This is where its going to go. I still didnt know whether yuko going to use of firstperson sort of the chorus idea or whether its going to be distinctive voices whether you are going to give the names. So there were a lot of coefficients i did not understand. Debbie of me either. [laughter]. David exactly. But what i did know is that it was going to be sort of the camera from above watching. But you ended up doing is the camera shifting from one person to the next. And you do get the total from the sum of the parts. Debbie and another to make about that conversation was that everybody had a name. Every character was named. If they also make sure in the book, you read a book out loud to me. It was at the book festival. And i thought oh my god, this great chorus. That was it. Soon we come as a combination of those sorts of things. Because no one is named, no characters named. But you know who they are. And you know who they are by the placement of the page. Decided that side for you know because of the font for it is different for each of the state speakers. And because of the size. I did choose different spaces for every voice. It should be able to say, that is who this is. This is a student or a National Guard poster or this is i cant take credit for this is another student. This is one of the students. Should be be able to know they are. I dont think you should be confused about that i just trusted the readers to come with me. If you look at it, is a conversation. It side to side to side to side. Everybody talking about this and back and forth in that conversational way. And we utilize ar. Indigo those analogies. And as the young people to get involved. Insert your name here. So ill just get together. David in that initial conversation. I would love to talk a little bit about the choice telling from the point of view who died or hurts. It is off the table. Can you that decision. Debbie up i tried, it was obvious wherefore ivan got anything out. I cannot talk in the voice. So any of them are still living. There were people, who call themselves victims. And they are. Baby have not been shot but they were affected. Theres so there. One of the wounded has died. And the others are still there. Those who died. Thats sacred and is not for me to put my voice into their story. I was not there. What i can do is shake all of that research but it did which was going through archives and photographs and mountains of letters and articles and informational about may 4th. And distilling it. And i can have a conversation from those conversations that are red. All those days that i sat there and i photographed everything. And i went to the campus and i scanned when they fail. In nearly every year, there is no observant on may 4th grade individual on the night of may 3rd. None may 4th is a remembrance. Its very powerful rated they held onto the very last minute before, but i think the virtual celebration was really great. We all participated. It sort of form the storytelling david she did go into it with obviously, you knew what had happened at. Im curious. Surprised you the most when youre doing your research. Was hard part reset either was a factor something you had not known or just something that really do not if you is hard as when it was in the abstract. But when it was in front of you, you really thought the half, theres much more. Speedo couple things. First i didnt understand that the conflict was four days. Because when i heard abou about, is a 16 yearold kid, so shocking at that moment. And when you helping young kids telling about their stories about the context. I didnt really understand what it was about. So i had really find out. In telling the American Public what happened into the street on may 1st. And then on may 2nd what happened and so forth. So the first of all, that was a surprise. But there to pieces of information in a research and just laid me and one was a letter to the editor. These kids have destroyed our town. Shouldve killed more of them. Afford me. I remember standing up from that archive room in the library and was at the other end of the room rated and she said are you okay. And i said no. And then to understand the National Guard. Love them or 19. There were students they did not want to be there they were scared. If they do not understand. And i didnt understand an organization by bus. There are told to stay away from the campus on may 4th. You see the soldier standing there with guns. The white kids should be there. So those things were just talking to me. I didnt understand it. So writing always helps me to understand a story ready to understand myself and the frame of the story read and understand us that way. Gives me more of an understanding so that i can go on. Changes things. And certainly this one did. David i will ask at this point, were hitting the 730 mark so i will encourage and will not ask all the question tonight. You have questions please put them in the q a. With them in there and i will ask questions. The 500th either us. We are happy to answer. Its funny because i dont know if ive asked you this. Which is the voices was the hardest to write. Debbie thats an interesting question. I think they were all hard. They all came together. It is mostly separating them out. It was like stop, stop, stop. So i can write this down. I know went very quickly when it finally came. That was so any years ahead of working on it before something open up. In this kind of my process two. And i trust for the next time and then the next time and then the next time. Separating out the voices and giving the students three voices. Two white students and one black students. In the arguments. On the counties are. Easy because they had written so much. So any letters to the editor. So any articles have been written about it. And it was hard because unless you, of course you go forward because you dont want to be seen at times us was the one who did this. But there are a couple of an anonymous oral with the soldiers gave. One of them just had absolutely broke my heart. He was a student cant state. He would not give his name. I think sandy knows who it is. But i dont need to know. It was amazing. It made it very hard to write. And also some black united students. They didnt have as much or what i had to do was the long arc of the overreach. It for all of us but particularly black americans rated and Going Forward it in looking at what is happening today. That was very hard to do. I wanted very much to draw that line so that kept state to be read by anyone. I wanted the voice to be able to have that overview. So it was hard right that angry voice. It. David and to come along right. One of the questions again. And i think you touch on this. Did you come up with the voices separately. Do you sort of tinker around with them individually or did you basically establish them in relationship to one another. It. Debbie one of the things that i like to do most in writing fiction this characterization. And dialogue is your power tool. Because it does three wonderful things for you. It characterizes, information and read your story or moves it forward. So those three things, im always trying to make sure it happens with my characters. With this particular conversation because i had may 1st and may 2nd and may 4th, had the states. Ne