About something so what i do in this book is i restore history to the subject of covert electoralinterference. I debunk as myth that this is confined to the 2016 election. I show how the soviet union interfered in elections during the postwar period and how they went toe to toe during the cold war, how russia is interfering in elections all over the world today and only then to do i 2 examine 2016 and its aftermath because at the moment russia is actively interfering in the 20 20 election and to me by restoring that history to Public Discourse and by preceding the fact that this is not all new we can prepare for and defend against this threat in a much more effective and comprehensive way. What is new about what russia is doing and what are they doing that theyve always done . Whats new here . I would say whats not new is the idea of russia covertly interfering in the us election area as i detail in the book russia targeted, the soviet union targeted americas 1960, 68 and 84 elections in order to work against republicans. I would say whats also not new are the ideas behind what russia is doing such as spreading propaganda across a vulnerable News Platform or seeking to find and release private information about public figures or even stuffing ballot boxes whether it be physically or digitally free at whats new here is that because of the internet there able to turbocharge all of those ideas. The common again because of the internet there able to penetrate america at scale which the soviet union struggled to do and then see, but also new is that there able to pursue two types of interference once in both seeking to spread propaganda as they did in 16 but also see to probe and penetrate our voting systems as they did during the 2016election. With what you know about what russia has been doing in the past and is doing now, what concerns you the most about the upcoming election. I would say a couple of things on my mind. The first thats important to keep in mind is there are always two ways to interfere covertly in an election whether its 1920 or 2020, either by manipulating pupeople, Public Opinion or by minute deleting systems, trying to affect actual balance so we know right now russia is seeking to manipulate Public Opinion across social media essentially by releasing information that microsoft says its trying to steal what most concerns me is thinking from russias perspective what is our greatest vulnerability right now because that situation here, trying to assess where we are weak and where we are usually weak at this present moment is around our actual voting process because theres so much doubt as a result of the coronavirus this election will proceed fairly, that the voting process can be trusted. The president alleging it is of course rigged and so from russias perspective which aims by the way to tear down american democracy, to disrupt, discredit and delegitimize our election process, you can either spend this information around our voting process or to sabotage our systems and in select places in so more that you can perhaps get a lot of return based on relatively little effort on how much doubt already exists that we will be able to hold a stable election in the fall. Let me take a second and remind arguers they can participate in this conversation area were going to hold up regular lines and that means republicans, your lines are going to be 2027488000 one. Democrats, call him at 2027488000. Independence, your number 202748 8002 and keep in mind you can always text us at 202748 8003 and we are always here on social media, on twitter and facebook cspan and david, we already have a question from one of our social media followerswho wants you to answer this. Maybe the experts finally can tell us what he means interference e . Is a russian guy expressing an opinion on facebook interference . Is some statement by putin s interference or are they packing the ballot box . Thats an important question. For me what i study and what i qualify as this subject is something thats known as covert electoral interference and to qualify as such you have to meet three specific qualifications. One, you have to be covert. The hand of your involvement has to be hidden. If you are publicly rsendorsing a candidate, if Vladimir Putin endorses donald trump is not qualified but if russia steals and then leaks documents through a thirdparty, thereby hiding its hand your in the ballgame. The second word is electoral. And for something to be electoral you have to be targeting an electoral process so a vote that determines the leader of your country. If youre trying to mold Public Opinion to as an end in itself or if youre trying to influence maybe let, another type of operation but it is not an electoral operation and then finally interference means youre deploying active measures as one kgb general i interviewed put it to me. This week on cbs National Security advisor Robert Obrien spoke about his recent discussion with russian officials in geneva and the message he delivered on the upcoming election. Let see what he says. I think our adversaries know the United States government is study at the teller and were protecting american people. With respect to russia and the elections one of the reasons is to let him know there would be no tolerance for any interference with our election day and voting and the vote tallies and demanded that russia not engage in that sort of thing but the russians have committed to doing so look, its russia so president reagan said and as President Trump often says its trust but verify. We will keep an eye on it but the russians did commit to not interfering with the elections but we will see what happens and that was the message we gave to the president and i got to deliver that in person to the general who is president putins right hand person. Host first i want you to react to what Robert Obrien said and then tell us what does the actual fact that they have to have this discussion say about what russia plans to do in the upcoming election. Guest sure, its nice for russia to say they will not interfere in the 2020 election but the i problem is they are interfering in the 2020 election right now. The current fbi director has testified under oath that russia is very active and interfering in the selection and weve seen strands of its operation unfolding already across social media about voter fraud and vectors of this ongoing efforts to influence this election. On one hand russia denied interfering with the 2020, 2016 election in russia is denying interfering in the 2016 election and they denied in the 1950s election and thats when they were confronted by an a administration before the november election and on the one hand i would not pay too much heed to russias denial because they dont actually bear out by the facts but on the other hand i think that its a fine message to send and there is no downside to say dont interact in our election and i wish the president would communicate that message directly to the russian president rather than either say it does not exist or actually solicit help from russia as he did before the 2016 election in asking for them to help start an email. On the one hand helpful message on the other hand but lets be clear eyed and recognize that russia is interfering in the 2020 election right now and while mr. Obrien seems to be talking just about russia will manipulate vote tallies as i said the electoral interference can include manipulating people or manipulating actual votes and to defend election against threats. Host i know your focus is on russia but are there other countries of concern like chinac like iran or what is going on with those countries . Guest i would say that to date the history of covert electoral interference has primarily been russian tradition and a soviet tradition and secondarily an american tradition. I would say beyond that no country has been on the game to date and a really systemic and continuous sustained way. With that said russias 2016 operation became so highprofile and drew somewhat intended that i do wonder if that could be a turning point in terms of other states seeking to imitate russia. While it would not expect china or iran to be the pioneer here because that would neither be justified by their history or evenei by their current objectis but i would say that they probably arent making some calculation about whether to try oto follow the lead of russia. However, i would also make the point that this is a global problem and so russia is interfering in elections on a global basis because russia has a global strategy to do so which is to support authoritarian mind of disrupted candidates who undermine their democratic system and i interviewed the president of montenegro who tried to assassinate the former president of columbia who said his social media environment is overseas or got reports of such high russian actors and so on the one hand russia has a globaa basis for doing this but stacked that up against china or iran who would need a global reason to interfere in elections on a global basis and based on their foreign policies i do not believe they do and so you may see them interfering in specific elections for china into taiwan or australia but again i would expect russia to be at the front of the line here in terms of its aggressiveness in seeking to manipulate our electoral processes. Host before we let our viewers join this conversation we talk about the problem and lets talk about solutions. In a video released by the fbi several agencies spoke about Election Security efforts, including the head of the Cyber Security and infrastructure security agency. Heres a portion. [inaudible] you might be wondering whether the 2020 elections will be secure. Im here today to tell you that my confidence in the security of your vote has never been higher. That is because of an alternation unprecedented Election Security effort over the last several years. We are focused on securing our nations Critical Infrastructure and thetu essential services tht underpin our society. That is clearly including [inaudible]. Since 2017 weve been working with states and local Election Officials and the folks of one our elections. First, we pulled together the Election Community across all 50 states with territories in dc to work toward a common purpose of protecting 2020. Second, we help make the election systems across the country secure and resilient as possible. Third, we work to increase the voting processes, including the vote itself. This year more than 92 of the votes cast will have [inaudible] and thats a great thing because Election Officials can check the receipts and make sure the account is right. F host how much more prepared is the u. S. To fight against ans type of foreign interference in this upcoming election . Guest i would say again lets draw an important distinction. That video by the way i watch that when it came out and was very helpful. I would say the first type of interference is to influence voters to spread emails or disinformation across social media to manipulate Public Opinion and he was not talking about that at all. What he was talking about was very specific form of interference which is reaching and manipulating our actual election infrastructure and it makes sense that that is not only because of his job but because of the where we were four years ago. Whereas, i reveal in my book i interviewed 26 former adviserss to president obama and what i found is that the imperative and activation was that second type of interference and was that russia was going to affect our systems for john brennan for instance told me that russia had the capability to alter the voter data on actual vote date as of our u. S. Citizens to the point where on election day itself i discovered that the white house and dhs were running secret racing for russian Cyber Attacks against our election infrastructure. I would say that in that aftermath even though no such attacks manifested itself i think at the bare minimum we need to be securing our infrastructure and im glad that the focus and the challenge of that is the space and localities have the final say over what alelection systems they are running but im glad that the dhs, fbi and whomever else are seeking to assist those in securing those systems because i worry as someone else in that video that foreign actors are seeking to gain access to our elected infrastructure so we have to be determined and resolute in defending both our systems and against efforts to affect our information environment over the next several weeks. Host lets go to our colors and let them join the conversation print lets start with and calling from northville, california. Republican line. A nn, good morning. Caller thank you for taking my call. First of all, i want to say or ask you you say russia. Okay. Well, i dont think its putin interfering in the election but i think its your claim that is more interfering in our elections. I really believe in 2016 that they were interfering and theyri wanted hillary because there were incidences in new york and this lady kept voting for trump and it kept coming up hillary. She, you know, there is so much voter fraud on the democrat side and its pathetic. I wont even tell you the story but anyway my thing is if they do or are interfering and i think its ukraine, not so much moscow or that but i think its ukraine and i think biden and his son and they have a lot to do with it. Their dealings with ukraine and we need to get trump back and i cant stress this enough. Host go ahead and answer, david. Guest thank you very much question. I would say that its very important to correct but t unfortunately the myth that ukraine was the perpetrator here. I think that the problem that we have as a democracy is that before youre able to defend your election you have to go into thehe backyard. I think we can all agree on that. The facts of an established at least for 2016 that russia, by the order of Vladimir Putin, based on the consensus of our u. S. Intelligence community did interfere in the 2016 election in order to help donald trump burn Hillary Clinton and to mass with american democracy. To do so russia spread propaganda across social media through an organization known as the Internet Research agency which is based in st. Petersburg and reached over 100 million americans online print Russian Military intelligence as an Agency Notice the ga are you hacked emails from the Democratic National committee and to john podesta and military intelligence must be probed and penetrated our election systems and so those are the facts. We can talk about it and we should talk about how to defend against efforts by not only russia but by any country interfering covertly in ourov election moving forward whether it be a democrat or republican, it doesnt matter but we should be as resolute in defending against those operations because were seeking to defend our democracy but to do so we have to learn from the russian efforts four years ago was based on reports of been released by the senate and by them mother investigation, the u. S. Intelligence community it is not only determined but actually if you go through the weeds of the document there are extraordinary publicly Available Evidence as to what exactly happened and what we can learn from it. One of our social media followers has another question for you, david. They want to know generally do you believe that russian interference is solicited by american politicians . Guest so, i would say that actually the tradition of american politics at the president ial level before 2016 was the opposite where in 1960, for instance, soviet ambassador on instruction from the leader of the soviet union itself approached Adlai Stevenson who was a leading democratic politician of the day and offered in a closeddoor meeting to help him win the presidency. Stevenson, more or less said, get the hell away for me and i want nothing to do with this. The idea being he would rather lose if he ran on his own thing when with foreign help. The same story in 196 to eight, soviet ambassador on orders from moscow by his own recollection in his memoirs revealed that he approached Hubert Humphrey who was the sitting Vice President at the time tried to offer to fund his campaign for the presidency to work against richard nixon. Hubert humphrey then said or pivoted the conversation and wanted nothing to do with it. And so i hope that that tradition will resurface because i believe that american politicians, if you are democrat or republican it doesnt matter, you believe in the sovereignty of our democracy then used also believe in the independence of our elections and he should have no business soliciting from any foreign actor, covert assistance in our electoral processes because something that really became support around here in my research is the soviet union interfered in the 1968, elections to destroy richard nixon. Of the publican appeared in the 76 and 84 elections to destroy ronald reagan. He republican. It so happens that right now russia does want to help a republican but what russia is after is teachers are leaders for us and sabotage our democracy and undermined the viability hub the democratic models as a viable model of government and that is should offend an alarm all americans. Host you said in an interview this year that the idea of interference is not just changing ballots but to delegitimize the entire process and i will read your quote to you and talk more about that. Recently ready for there to be some sort of plan to degrade, disrupt our democracy by delegitimizing the outcome of the election because what putin is after here is chaos and dysfunction and corrupting democracy. Trump is a means to that end but there are other ways of achieving it and one of which is just making americans wonder whether their election was fair at all talk about that. Guest so, i agree with myself. [laughter] i would say the russian objective here you have to look globally because donald trump can be distracting in our current politics can be distracting. Lets think about what their strategy is overall