For and in a way that is not argumentative but i find highly per was persuasive he makes a strong case and along the way using his incredible stretchtive powers and descriptive powers and second to none in being able to in a concise way describe a scene, a room, a group of people, he carries you along through this own travels, along the southern border and borders around the world, and along the way i believe he makes a strong case for his ideas of how we should deal withour borders. Peter, this is not the first book that you have written and in a moment well enumerate the other books if you have within d have opportunity articles and radio programs, short form news and long form talk shows. Youre quite literate on these matters. And let me begin by talking about some of the Current Issues related to immigration. For example, just a week or two ago, a nurse who turned whistleblower at an i. C. E. Detention center in georgia went public with charges that a medical doctor there had performed hit recollects mys hysterectomies on immigrant wants. This is an example of our inhuman treatment of immigrants we place in dough tenth under draconian policies of the Trump Administration. What was your reaction when you heard this revelation and how does it tie together with the pattern of family separations, kits in cages, violation of the asylum laws in the United States to prevent those with a credible claim from crossing our borders. Its that litany that you just offer and i want to thank Village Books for welcoming me. Has always such a treat to come to bowlingham and thank you. We have worked together a lot and this is a valuable conversation. The think but the most recent revelations, and they really or revelations because this is what the publics fear at work and we should not knee to know what is going need to know whats going on in our name and with our dollars because of approve whistleblower. Anytime one of this pieces of information that guess on about what goes on behind the closed doors and they are closed doctors almost always. Even when reporters get in the rules are oppressive regarding recording and cameras and note, taking and access, every time one of this revelations comes out, the cages for their children, the violation of the asylum laws. Theres supposed to get interest the country so theyre safe while their cases are being adjudicated and now this horror of the surgery being performed, every time we think it cant possibly be more abusive, and to use your word dramatic dramatic conan and we got another one ask this he pattern of the Trump Administration, urn fortunately, although happening in rapid succession and at extreme levels, its also to a great extent the pattern of the United States government visavis immigration into this country historically. Peter in terms of the asylum process, before covid, we saw Jeff Sessions when he was the attorney general redefine the terms of asylum to exclude Domestic Violence and criminal activity in the native lands, they native countries of individuals seeking asylum. Then we saw covid used to shut at the process done after they came up with this convoluted scheme where an individual from el salvador would have to go to guatemala and request asylum there, be rejected, and then they could approach the u. S. Via mexico, and the idea that someone who is at risk in el salvatore would be safe in guatemala or even in men cases in mexico, is not important out by any facts. Its in fact absurd. So we see the twisting of the law, heavy pressure applied to impoverished nations where trump threatened to cut off the meager aid we already goal them and would exacerbate the problem. These are not rational responses to serious issues year, thats one thing i address in the book directly. I lock for consensus. How can be Work Together when there is a problem, and pretty much all of us no matter our opinions of view, can agree that the border is out of control. The border is chaos, the bored is problematic, migration issues are out of control. So i believe that once we have that that we agree theres a problem we can Work Together to find solutions. We cant too that when the cant too that when the goal of the administration is to demonize certain categories of migrants and we cant do that when the administration is using all the tools at hand to the tools being the executive branch of the federal government, to study every possible way to make it difficult if not impossible for the type of migrants that they, the administration, clearly do not want here pause thats been articulated every possible avenue, every possible tool, every possible device, to stop them. These are enumerated in the book. Its what im looking at, both in terms of solutions and in terms of why the problem is as great as it is right now. The book looks at borders, at walls across time, across cultures, but at you point out, it is focused on our border with mexico and my attempts to offer some ideas to deal with this chaotic reality are focused on mexicans coming into the United States because of our special relationship, our special history with mexico, and because of the aadjacenty of the two companies. Were twins. Theres no getting around it. Even if your name is Stephen Miller. Stephen miller is the architect of many of these extreme policies, and i dont know the guy, never midwest him never met him but his public persona is a man who is driven by racism and xenophobia to keep out people who he considers to be the other. And you have actually meet Stephen Miller, so tell us about that exchange and your observations about him. I realize as im smiling, im smiling at the memories and the odditiy of meeting him, not smiling at out about his performances going back to when i met him and he was an underundergraduate al Duke University. We shouldnt spent much time on that history pause his contemporary the words arent there to describe what he is doing now to create ammunition for this war against mexicans and mexico being perpetrated for the last three years, plus including the campaign for the trump presidency, but what happened is in a become prior to this book, prior to up against the wall, called wetback nation which made a case that i consider more evolved and developed now for opening that border. The Duke University conservative club, conservative union, invited me to the university to debate peter, cite famous for having the opposite views that i have, and the two members, go officials of the club, bizarrely, who invited me, were Stephen Miller and a graduate student, richard spencer, and so i spent a couple of days with these two who have since become infamous of course in immigration policy debate and other poll politics whereunder opinions are obviously divergent, but they were gracious, it was Duke University, it was the south and we win out to dinner, and then the debate occurred, and i won, and so the afterparty was sour because they expect told be celebrating my loss and my wife sheila had stashed a battle of champagne in our room and she said, lets get out of here, this place gives me the creeps. This guys give me the creeps. So, yeah,. Did you attempt to reach Stephen Miller to get an interview with him in the preparation for this book . No. I really didnt think it was necessary. What i did when i conducted the research for this book was spend time with what i call along the pouredder and that border stretches from niagra falls to chapas, the border is pourous, the border is evermoving, not just that line that trump claims he wishes to put a wall, this wall. The prototypes here in the back on the cover photograph for the book. My goal was to talk to those who were living this chaos that i mentioned, and to talk with those on the ground and politicians who were attempting to solve the problem and see what kinds of solutions we can consider, conceptualize, engage in, to begin a process to mack things better. City seven miller and his ilk in the white house and the president are doing the opposite, and to talk to them and sit and hear that party line back was not my goal for this book. My foal for this book was seeking solutions. Theyre not seeking solutions. Theyre seeking a strawman to be able to continue to knock down, to try to garner votes. So, i have had the pleasure of knowing professor laufer for almost 30 years now, but for people who are discovering peter laufer for the first time, lets give a little thumbnail brown and ill start. You basically have a career that has been in the parts. As a radio broadcaster, Foreign Correspondent for nbc radio, when that was a vibrant national network. You then kind of morphed into being a book author and magazine reporter or writer. And late in life you became an academic and as claire mentioned in the introduction queue hold the James Wallace chair in journalism at the university of oregon and through these different pursuits you have been a world traveler, and you have crossed many, many borders. So, you bring those experiences to the book in ways that i think are fascinating, and not egocentric, youre sharing experiencenot patting yourself on the back or puffing yourself up. Want to mention some of the books you have written that have some relationship to the topic of your current book. You wrote iron curtain rising but the end of the soavity union and the eastern bloc. Nightmare abroad a story of americans who ran bo trouble outside of our borers. Calexico, true lives of the border lands. You referred to wetback nation. Then you also wrote, see you later amigo, an american borer war, and try to system how many times try to estimate how many time you have crossed crose u. S. Mexico border. Thats a tough one you just through at me. I cant imagine counting that alone in addition to other border i have crossed. If i may take that bat from you and talk about borders which i do so much in the book, conceptually. Not just these National Borders like that border you want me to count how many time i crossed into mexico. You have my head swimming trying to think back to the first time when i was turned back by the federales because i wasnt 18 and we thought we would drive down to baja and got south of ensenada and i almost said cincinnati where er from just got just south of ends espn ends ensend ngata. So, im from marine county marin county california and i was in a restaurant in fairfax. I know the restaurant yourure and i was at table and he was at another table and this spokes to borders conceptually, which is much what the book is out, and overhearing him talking to member at his table, and he said, boy, am i glad to be back in fairfax. Just feels feels so good to abok across the line in fairfax. So i asked him where you . He said san rafael. And of course, peter is laughing and in 0 youve watching may laugh because san rafael is three miles east. Its the county seat but it really is indicative of how we create borders, and not always for bad reasons. Theres nothing wrong with establishing our perimeters conceptually or actually. The problem is when we do something in my opinion that is devious, when we do something that is hurtful, when we do something that is counterintuitive, when we do something that benefits us at the expense of others, when we do michigan that is illegal do something thatting illegal and all of those things in that litany are what the United States government is doing now and unfortunately has done to a great extent historically, just not with the crudeness, the vial behavior and the gasalier numbers fastly numbers of victims. Man that happened during Operation Wetback during the hoover administration. Its a problem when there are victims. Its not a problem when you want to shut the bathroom door and push the button on it. You make a reverence in the back the imaginary line and when i was 12, my dad took me and my brothers and mom to europe, we camped out of a volkswagen bus, and my dad had been a veteran of world war ii and he was a history student of both wars, and he took us to the line, and for people who dont know much about it, it was built after world war i to prevent a second german invasion of france, and they miscalculated because they built these gunnery emplace. S and the guns did 360 degrees when the planes the medieval bareovers these walls, including trumps border wall, are really redickous. You cannot stop ridiculous, you cannot the passage of humans whether they fly oover, tunnel under or get a ladder thats two feet taller than whatever barer you build, and i dont know what your favorite visualization is of the idocy of walls but eye asking for it now. The line is one of them in addition to the luftwaffe sta story there was an end of the line and hitler troops went into the end of the line and came round and win into france. So i lived in berlin for a were before the wall dame down and a year after the wall came down and the idocy is not the word i would use because again that was a place of tragedy, but when one goes back to berlin now and its too tourist attraction. Of course its a historical reality and there are some small sections of the wall still in place in order to study, look at, buy a tshirt and get an ice cream cone, and that reality that something as severe and as eric honnicker said this would be here for 100 years, and it was there for maybe a hundred days after that. Its indicative of as you say and he become documents, human migration especially when it is motivated by economic need, by survival, by family reunification, it is not stoppable. You can make it miserable and certainly stop some individuals but is that the kind of policy we want to have . I say no. I say no in the book, particularly and for a start, with mexico. Because there are some raw realities with numbers and i like to look for the places, as i said earlier, where those who come from different political points of view can agree about a problem and then they begin to agree about a solution. Everybody in the world cant not they would necessarily want to cant come here, but mexico is a special case. What we are doing and what we have done historically going back at least to when we started a war and took half the country, it is aegregious and we do it for our own profit and then some of us hide behind saying, stay out of here, this is ours. Thats wrong it and opportunity work. Peter i believe fundamentally that eave nation has a right to control its borders. But i also believe that control has to be rational, and i believe that for decades now, we have been in an irrational mindset about controlling our border particularly the southern border. And id like you to take couple of minutes here to articulate your arguments for revising the regulations related to mexican entry into the United States and youre not in my view talking about just a wide open border where anybody can cross in either direction at any time. But you talking but reducing the level of regulation to a rational model. Heres the thing, peter. Basically i can article and i do in the poock that any mexican who wants to come north of the border will get here. And so do we want what we have now, which is millions of people in the country, we dont know. That might not be a bad thing. Certainly i certainly my point of view is the opposite of the president s. I think thats the majority of the people who are here from mexico are just like anybody else who is here, basically good people. So, do we want people coming in across the border without knowing who they are . Because as you just said a country like most of us agree wants to regulate its borders just like the front door of the house there because i dont want somebody coming in while were talking. So, if you look at the Canadian Border as a model, pretty much any canadian who wants to can come down here. They dont just come across from manitoba into north dakota via corn fields. They no through Border Control points and we know who they are and we take a look at their passport or other papers and we run them through a check and make sure theyre not wanted and in they come and its six months if im remembering correctly to do whatever they want to in the United States. Its nothing like that for mexico and any mexican who wants to cant come north the way any canadian can come south. Lets make it the same. Lets make it the same. And lets have mexicans who want to come north no, matter what they want to come north for, come their study, come and see relatives, come and work, want to come and good to disneyland . What they want to do come on up. And a lot of where they would come up used to be their country anyway. Come on up and just go through a Border Crossing, and the same thing happens that happens with canadians. We have other problems farther south in central america, we can deal with that later. My issue is lets see if we can couple up with a model for mexico and mexicans. Other factor here. For the most part canadians arent being seduced to come do work so while we supposedly trying to prevent mexicans fromming up here we are actively seducing them to come up and do work and light or not the reality of the cliche i true, work that those who are here dope want to do. Were seducing them to couple here and making them as hard as possible to come up here through any Legal Mechanism and so they come up and they are here as de facto outlaws because we want them here. That none that makes any sense unless you want to demonize somebody and keep them opressed and suppressed and unless you dont like them because of where theyre from, because theyre not norwegians. So, peter, at the base of this, are economic fears, the people who i think inaccurately believe that a mexican wants to take my job or his job . We are no closer to any comprehensive resolution of these complex issues. Then we were at this. 5 years ago were ten or 20 years ago. You can go back further and historically to the administration and the turnofthecentury it starts with the story of my father coming to ellis island and that you can say the mexicans of the time and anybody that wasnt from norway. I interrupted you because you probably had a questionnaire at the end. I just want you to comment because i see any real political desire to resolve these issues. No. Historically, there hasnt been a successful compromise or a political desire to find compromise there have been attempts one side or another and maybe with the recent history the closest was george w. Bush have these criminal activities from my point of view working with vicente fox who by the way when he was president of mexico and bush spoke spanish and from texas there were commonalities that bush understood as a texan that he articulated that he understood the appropriateness of the co mingling that word exist historically in contemporary times. And that was on the agenda for fox. And 9 11 interfered with those ongoing talks of that could be a point where there was a potential for some coming together satisfactorily to achieve some sort of legislative solution. There was a 1986 law, Immigration Law which provided for the legalization of millions of people because there were ways to deceive the process and it opened up the country to immigration that afterthefact they cannot get into the country and it also suggested everything would be worked out. So these stopgap efforts like a 1986 law are not a solution. Perhaps what they were doing could have resolved some of this but as you suggest as the book goes through chapter and verse that includes president obama to take on unfortunately the negative nickname the decoder in chief. Mentioning hoover a couple of times and operation what back and that they were dumped into mexico if they were east l. A. And then they were americans. And by the way that is Something Else that i address in the book. We are all americans alaska on down. But all of us in mexico and here refer to the United States citizens as americans in the United States of mexico as mexicans. Interestingly enough vicente fox and others may call them us americans. You mentioned the 1986 reform signed by reagan authored by california congressman later attorney general and an archconservative named dan monger and. Rush limbaugh turn the whole effort into a single word, amnesty. And republicans have use that to poison any attempt to rationalize Border Patrol between us and mexico. If there is any step that regularize is the presence of undocumented people of the United States giving residential status then that is amnesty and that is completely the completely the any of those that are on the west should be seeking amnesty for mexico city since we took that land for mexico in a war of aggression despite the fact president clinton showing how to transcend the two parties , and one memorial day on Arlington National cemetery never brought a war of aggression to achieve territory of gain. So in his official speeches talking with his cabinet and his diaries makes it very clear that is exactly what the war with mexico was and the gulf of tonkin realities to stage of scrimmage between the mexican troops and american troops to rationalize going to war. In a few minutes we will open this up for questions with our viewers. A quotation from a passage in the book to highlight what i touted earlier your descriptive powers but also one of the many people you interviewed and quoted in the book. This is former congressman Sylvester Reyes who was a Border Patrol officer before he was elected from a district in texas i was born and raised in worked all my life. Here is the description i want people to relate to. There is a replica of the statue of liberty in his Capitol Hill Office along with military mementos on the Armed Services committee his grandparents immigrated from mexico and a product of the American Dream a fact he considered part of his routine working his be chasing mexicans. You recognize the fate you might be going and have a full understanding of the implications of what youre doing. He is a stout man and that reflects his years of wearing a badge but you go on to tell us that he was the principal author of the southwest Border Program that in many ways shifted the focal point for northbound migrants from the established border stations near san diego and push them out more into the rugged frontiers to face letters both human and animal and the hostile conditions of the desert and you want to bring up reyes because he was a democrat. But yet he was responsible for some counterproductive reforms to immigration policies. Its also interesting that at the time i talked with him he is the only active board of old man elected to Congress Based on an interesting dynamic and plenty of credibility i would like to think, i was going to say think it thats not fair he could not imagine the results of this policy to harden the border and create walls at urban crossing points in order to make it so the least patrol and the one with the fewest barriers would be in the southwest desert. I would like to think he figured people would not try to brave the elements and all of the other problems that exist crossing the border anyway especially in these remote places and thousands have died going across the border thousands played on by criminals and that policy consciously pushing people is one of the most tragic and heartbreaking realities of these attempts of what nobody really wants to prevent mexicans from coming into the United States. At this point i want to open up our chat window to see if we have questions or comments from the people that are currently viewing and you can post your comment or question and we will get there as many as we can. Im waiting for those, want to confess i learned many things from your book some major and some minor as a recovering rock n roll dj i thought Jefferson Airplane invented the phrase up against the wall. [laughter] there is a fascinating chant up against the wall and yes, it is on their album volunteers. Of course not knowing anything about the Jefferson Airplane work for album names but that came later. One of the things i thought would be appropriate in the title of the book giving the issues walls considering the book and the focus is on our wall and border with mexico they are walls across time and across cultures and what works and what doesnt and discussing movements of people for those who are moving for economic reasons for family unification reasons the walls. Them maybe for a while but then they become tourist attractions. The phrase up against the wall dates as best i can figure looking back as an academic it was used by Lee Roy Jones from the new york riots, depending on the terminology you want to use but to have a line that said something to the effect of if there is something you need to to the store and pick up your pistol. And the magic word is up against the wall. However it does seem that it predated his use because apparently, fewer out there and can help me with this researc research, let me know apparently something commonly used by the Newark Police department when they were in the black ghetto arresting black people and they would say during the process routinely up against the wall thats too gentle am f. But then it became a chant to their there was a group of whatever they would call themselves downtown in new york city engaging in street activities around the time. They call themselves up against the wall mf with the Jefferson Airplane song and then as you recall a man as in the sixties and seventies as a rally cry so it seemed appropriate given the subject matter in the book to delve into the history. As you thought about it and decided to use the title for your book, how do you translate it and what is that connection in the mind of the author quick. Thats multiple it is up against the wall to be thrown against it and because we are up against the wall dealing with this problem on our mexican and border and they are up against that wall on the other side of the border. It is up against the wall since the berlin wall came down as i documented in the book. There are so many more nash on natural border walls is one of the hungarian serbian border that suffered so greatly with other European Countries because the iron curtain try to keep refugees out primarily coming from afghanistan and syria. So up against the wall it works in multiple ways so i go through what i believe is the importance of thinking through that phrase without the t12. Up against the wall. Of you are is asking the best argument someone might used to persuade someone who supports trump that an open border word serve conservatives . The first thing to do is make sure the phraseology is handled carefully and just as you pointed out the best use of amnesty i cannot think of the adequate derogatory term of the Rush Limbaugh of the world it doesnt open borders if it resonates to be one problematic were talking about the border that is controlled to allow anybody who doesnt have a record to come here to answer specifically like to start at the same way i started this conversation with bill oreilly on your Television Show before he was fired because of his activities with his coworkers and that we can all agree, i believe come all of us no matter our political points of view, we can agree it is chaotic and no good for anybody. That is my starting point with those who dont want to border that makes it easy for mexicans to come here. And then i go through this in the book if we agree it is chaotic and outofcontrol , then what can we do about that . The most of the people that come up there from mexico or because we want them here. Remember we have a declining population if i enjoy immigration we dont have enough people. So i have these points come out of control, people want to come here so the next step is easy. Come on up and come through the Border Crossing you flash your passport it goes through the computer you are not a drug dealer or murder or youre not wanted you want to visit their grandmother and the bronx, come on up if you want to go to disneyland with her three kids come on up somebody who has a job offer in Washington State picking pairs so they dont want on the ground now successfully stopped briefly come on up. That is something if you have a little more diplomacy and finesse than i did then to take it slowly that is something you can use with someone who disagrees with you at least to begin the conversation and listen hard what do they have to say . Where their ideas besides that monstrosity of the wall . Nafta and the newly negotiated a deal our attempts to reduce the power of the economic magnet for people to cross our borders. What is your opinion of those treaties . They are problematic because they victimize often those in mexico who are trying to stay in mexico and make life work for them its a complicated issue so as a better for somebody in mexico like guatemala to come up to a border town and leave their families behind living in substandard conditions working for more many than they would make . But still a fraction of what they would make if they were right across the border on the United States side . It doesnt seem right some of matter what the words say what we have these treaties looking at the history of nafta to make sure they are not positive changes but basically the Free Movement of capital another Free Movement of people it doesnt work if its not fair it is a work if it includes doesnt include labor. They will not go away because the people are already here. What they are in jeopardy and they cannot exert their rights. This is documented point by point in the book and its gracious of you to say, peter, say, peter, we need to adjust this and we will continue to have a problem or have the trumps of the world not to say there are not problems in mexico they should be a much more vibrant economy these things need to be addressed by mexico and mexicans but the solution for us selfishly is not to halfbrother chaos. I will combined to questions from viewers and the new administration what would you like to see is a first step and if biden wins you have any conjecture to the changes he would make . His attention seems to be elsewhere which is understandable because trumps attention is elsewhere. There are 3 miles of new barriers the rest is rebuilt the wall that is not new. So the role of the Incoming Administration that is not a Trump Administration i hope initially word turned down the volume and then those that are really suffering return to the way for immigrants to come across the border without documentation that are caught and those coming to the border seeking amnesty , asylum, excuse me, and then to return to the status quo that existed during the obama years and then we can begin to move to a longerterm solution. But for now we have to stop the predatory behavior by the Trump Administration in victimizing those who are the most needy and suffering. It is not fair. It puts them up against the wall and the one who should be up against the wall is trump and Stephen Miller and their buddie buddies. As we wrap up to my want to note trying to get the former mexican president vicente fox to write a foreword to your book but if they are struggling for people he is the one who went public and viral with a video and 2016 directed at candidate trump that mexico will not pay for your drafting wall and they have not. So tell us about your meeting with the former president and set the scene because he lives behind the wall. He does. Hes very happy that he does. I was able to contact him during one through Mutual Associates inc. I down to where the hacienda is he such a ideal writer for a book that deals with migration and walls, because yes he is in the hacienda behind walls and his grandfathers hacienda and as he tells the tale meets over a beer in the hacienda ball on bar because it is a Boutique Hotel used to raise money to maintain the box president ial library the first of a mexican president along the lines of the president ial libraries we have here north of the border. As he tells the tale his grandfather needed the wall to protect the hacienda during the mexican revolution. So what was his grandfather doing . In terms of immigration and Border Crossing his grandfather was from ohio and his grandfather suffered a whisper to a condition come i believe it was asthma and the doctor said it out of this miserable climate and get someplace it is hot and dry and then by chance as president fox tells a story he ended up there and got a job in a bicycle shop and then he worked his way up and brought the shop, then he covered by the hacienda so the president of mexico who defeated the party in power, walking down not mexican politics over 70 years in fact was the president of cocacola mexico and in latin america, a businessman elected president. The president of mexico is the grandson of an immigrant from ohio. We are in this mixmaster together. But especially mexico we are intertwined. And for us to arrogantly suggest there is Something Better up here a lot of mexicans go down to play and retire he thinks this is something to solve and i hope this book is a case for opening the mexicanamerican importer and i set out a blueprint it may not be your enter the one that works, but i hope it at least begins the conversation. Peter, thank you so much. Maybe we lost connection with the other peter. There he is. Somebody tried to call my cell phone and interrupted the feed. Let me conclude by saying that i only got to about one third of my questions for peter laufer in his book up against the wall and i encourage people to read it. It is fascinating and provocative and also note he doesnt just present people in the book who agree with him like cable news would and the reaction of president fox is notable among many people who were in the us without papers and who dont particularly agree with the premises of the open border with mexico that is described. That will provoke a lot of thought and life the conversation and if you share with people who are interested more in learning about this topic so thank you for joining us and i will hand it back to claire. On behalf of which works, thank you to both peters for being with me this evening and this book is up against the wall and copies are for sale if you click on the video it will take you directly to the websit website. Good evening. I am elizabeth and am enjoying this evening from the author is still right good evening gentlemen. Thank you elizabeth it is anon
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