The last million. Europes displaced persons from world war to the cold war. Im joel rosenthal, Prime Minister of Carnegie Council for ethics and international affairs. For those of us in the carnegie family of institutions, we have a special affection for david. His biography of Andrew Carnegie published in 2006 was a lifechanging event for us. Through davids work, weve come to know Andrew Carnegie in all of his humanity and complexity, and theres one lesson from the book that really stayed with me and has animated my work at the Carnegie Council, and that is the as david would put it cashtys carnegies cockeyed optimism was not entirely misplaced. For all the madness we see in the world, progress based on reason and a cando spirit is, indeed, possible. That idea keeps me going, and this occasion gives me the opportunity to say thank you, david. In addition to the carnegie biography, davids previous books include prizewinning biographies of joseph p. Kennedy and William Randolph hearst. Today we talk of davids latest book, the over one million displaced persons who emerged brutal used yet alive on ve day, april 1945. The last million is an epic story that takes us right into the heart of europe during and after world war ii. It describes the movement of millions of people among shifting borders and general chaos. The chaos of that war and its aftermath. It describes life at the street level and politics in the highest reaches of government. Finish millions of people were displaced by world war ii. Most known were those sent to concentration camps, yet there were also my grant laborers, forced laborers, Political Prisoners and p. O. W. S. When the war ended, many if not most displaced persons returned home. Yet as the title suggests, a million did not. This book tells the story of their search for a new home. So, david, thanks for joining us. And to kick it off, i just have a simple question which is how did you come to this story . How did you see the last million as a singular story to be told . I think it had a lot with just the extraordinary postwar. I had learned not to take the common sense view of historical events as necessarily truthful, sometimes only partially truthful. When i read tonys book, it became clear to me, much clearer than it had been before, that wars dont end with peace tier treaties, with the cessation of hostilities, even with the soldiers going home. War leads into postwar. And the suffering for civilians who have been displaced by war continues unabated. In the case of the last million, for 35 years that they remained in germany, in camps, many behind barbed wire for 35 years, let me emphasize, after ve day. Lets talk about the million who remain. And you talk about the one million into germany. Can you give us a little bit of information about who these people were and who went willingly and who didnt. Yeah. There were three different streams into germany during the war. The largest was the stream from eastern europe, mostly from poland and the ukraine. These were, in large part, adolescents, young men and women who were grabbed from their homes, forced onto trucks and trains into germany. Hitler and the third reich leadership knew from the very beginning that the only possible way to send millions of soldiers to the Eastern Front was to replace them with millions more forced enslaved laborers from the east. That was the first group. They began a arriving in 1940, 1941, and continued to arrive through the end of the war. The second stream that made up the last million came in 1944 and 1945 from latvia, lithuania, estonia and parts of ukraine. And these were men, women and their children. The men and women who had in one way or another collaborated with the nazi authorities. Finish sometimes that collaboration meant simply working in a post office that was overseen by a nazi official. In other cases it meant serving in the auxiliary e police rounding up jews. In some cases it meant joining the ss division. When it became clear that the red army was on its march and would soon arrive in the Baltic States and in the ukraine, thousands upon thousands of citizens who had collaborated in some way and citizens who could not a abide the thought of living under soviet domination made their way into germany. The third group were the jewish survivors. As the war came to an end, hitler and the german officials realized that they didnt want the fact of the death camps to be discovered by the russians and the world, number one. Number two, they needed more labor at home than they were getting from the forced laborers and slave laborers. And the decision was made to relocate those who had survived the death camps and the labor camps in poland and in the baltics, to relocate them, to death march them into germany where they would be not gassed, but worked to death, most of them in underground mines, mills, armament factory factories. These are the three groups that a make up the last million. Their journeys into germany are different. So, too, would be their experiences in germany. So its ve day, a little bit after. Were in europe, 1945. Can you give us a little bit of a feel for what its like in these camps, and what sort of the life and then what sort of futures or choices are these people looking at . There is no way to comprehend the devastation in germany that the displaced persons found when they left their workplaces or their concentration camps or their p. O. W. Camps. They were rounded up by the allies, put on trucks, gotten out of the way, shipped to centers and then sorted out by nationality and put into camps behind barbed wire often. Camps that were run by United Nations relief and rehabilitation administration, but supplied by the armies. The army supplied them with medical supplies, shelter. They built facilities, and then unra took care of them. What happened was that in germany in the years following ve day in these camps there were little ukraines, little latvias, little jewish i settlements. Jewish settlements. In the beginning the unra and the allies decided that they were going to separate them out by nationality. They did not recognize that there was such a thing as a jew. Lithuanian jews were sequesteredded with lithuanians, polish je ebb ws with nonjewish poles. In many instances the jewish survivors found themselves in the same camps as those who had been their guards in the concentration and labor camps. That ended in july and august when the jews were put into their own camps. The sense was this was transitional, that they would soon be allowed to go home. The last i have e januaries, thes stone januaries believed that world war iii was coming rapidly, and the americans and the british were going to liberate ukraine, latvia, estonia, lithuania from the soviets. Displaced persons could go home again. The same with the poles. The j e ws knew that they could never go home again, that they had no place in europe. Some of the birthists tried in the beginning to convince themselves and others that they could return to poland and build a new jewish community. For the j e ws, the only mace on earth place on earth they soon recognized where they would be welcome was palestine. Though the british did everything they possibly could under the mandate to keep the j e ws out. I want to pause here for a second and talk about, there were those who couldnt go home, understood that, but at one point a decision is made to not force repatriation, that individuals would have a choice whether they would be forced home or not. Can you talk just a little bit about that . Yeah. One of the things i realized as i did my research was that the cold war begins almost immediately, that theres the ramp from the world war to the cold war is a steep one. In the very gunning the soviets beginning the soviets and their allies in eastern europe, they demanded every displaced person, except for the jews and those who had been displaced by franco years before, every displaced person should go home. Whether they wanted to or not, they had to go home. The alls said, no allies said, no. The americans and the british said no. People have the right to choose their own citizenship and whether they wanted to go home or not. The soviets were convinced, there was a paranoia that has some basis in reality after the great war, world war i, is the allies tried to overthrow the bolshevik regime. And stalin and some of his compatriots believed that was a real possibility after world war ii, and what the allies were doing, what the british and the americans were doing was creating an army, an antisoviet, anticommunist dissidence that would be available to spread antisoviet propaganda and or begin world war iii. So i want the talk a little bit about, you mentioned in passing the establishment of these International Institutions to deal with this problem. So, first, we have unra, the United Nations relief and rehabilitation authority, then later we have the iro, the International Refugee organization. And there is an amazing passage in your book for those who will look at it, its on page 258. Im not going to read it, beginning of chapter 17, where you talk a little bit about how these organizations in their names, they sort of hint at a mission of being sort of humane institutions meant, you know, to provide literally relief for these immediate human suffering. And yet they turn into something else, right . They turn into these utilitarian employment agencies, if you will. Can you talk a little bit about those institutions and how theyre set up and where they eventually go . Yeah. Franklin roosevelt is, in this book and in others, something of a hero. He understands in 1943 that there will be an enormous refugee problem not only in europe, but in asia as well when the war is over. And the only way to stop a refugee problem is through International Cooperation. And he is instrumental again, this is in 1943 in setting up the United Nations rehabilitation administration. And he gets the nation and the world, including the soviet union, to join. The understanding is that it will be an agency that repatriates, that takes care of the immediate needs of the the refugees and then provides passage. Hole for them passage home for them. For the last million, that doesnt happen. And although the soviets demand that they be sent home or, you know, made to survive on their own in germany, the americans and the british continue to support these people in camps for a year, a year and a half until it becomes clear that theyre not going home. The americans and the british spearhead the establishment of a new organization, a new organization without the soviet es. The soviets wont join it. And its task is not to repatriate, but to resettle the last million. And hate 1946, 1947 late 1946, 1947 there is this extraordinary, bizarre meat market set up, as one of the unra mows calls it employees calls it, at meat market set up in the displaced persons camps. And all the members of the International Refugee organization, the iro, dozens of latin american nations, canada, australia, south africa, they fed delegations, recruiters into the camps the find workers to take jobs that they cant find anybody else to take. It begins with the british. The british have a severe labor shortage. And they cant get anybody to work in the tuberculosis sanitary. So what do they do . They go into the camps, and they recruit thousands of latvian women in the beginning. Then they decide this this has d so well, we need help in the mines, were going to bring in last i have e january latvian men. And the belgians need miners, the fresh need miners, the canadians need Railroad Workers and people to work in forestry. And so the International Refugee organization becomes a law e borrow cutement labor recruitment organization. The shots are being called by the governments that are doing the recruiting, not the International Organization. So there is sort of a hierarchy in terms of desirability in the resettlement process. And is some of that based on race and on perception . Or maybe its just more pure utilitarian function or some combination. Its a combination. Its a combination. The latvians are always the first choice. The australian Prime Minister makes it clear to the recruiting people, get the hat i have januaries. Latvians. Why . Because the latvians are white, the latvians are protestant, the latvians are reliably anticommunist, and the latvians had only arrived, unlike the poles or the jews, theyd only arrived in germany at then end of the war, and they were relatively healthy. They hadnt suffered the ravages of the war that the jewish survivors and the polish forced laborers had suffered. And it was felt that they were hard workers and they were assumable. No country on earth wanted the jews, and they didnt want them, again, for a variety of reasons. They werent reasons, a variety of myths, miss cop senses. Misconceptions. They aread the jews as clannish, as unwilling to do hard manual labor, as scoundrels, as rogues, as thieves, and worse yet, as bolshevik sympathizers or operatives. So from 19471948 as the latvians and the ukrainians9 and the estonians were resettled outside of the camps, the jews were left. The only way for the j e ws to get out of those camps was through illegal immigration to palestine. The british tried to stop the ships that left from marseilles and from italian ports, bulgarian points bound for israel, but they couldnt do it. 20, 30,000 displaced jews made their way to israel. Once they arrived, the british grand them, put them on a second series of ships and fed them to cyprus and put them behind barbs wire in displaced persons camps. But for the j e ws, getting out of germany even to go into another set of displaced person camps was far preferable than remaining in the land of their murderers. So many questions about the story of the jewish displaced persons. I want to ask you a little bit about truman as it relates to this story. So the way im reading it in the narrative is, you know, hes willing to confront the british to say, you know, you need to open up palestine. I mean, its a painful process, but he eventually confronts the british and sort of gets there or in that direction. Hes not willing to confront the u. S. Congress. [laughter] opening up the is that fair . Thats absolutely fair. Truman believes in the very beginning agrees in the very beginning with this naive optimism. The state Department Says dont go there. Truman says im going there. And he confronts, you know, in potts dam he confronts churchill immediately and says youve got to open up palestine to the jewish displaced persons. And he hints that if you want the loans that you need to rebuild your nation, youve got to help me out here. Ive got lots of jewish and i need their support, and its the humanitarian thing toot, its the right thing to do. And then he lets go this further argument which is just tragic. He says to the british, he says you dont have to worry the way you did before the war. He said six million jews were killed. You know, theyre dead. So the European Jews arent going to overwhelm pal student. Were not palestine. Were not talking about millions here, were talking about a couple hundred thousand. The british would not budge. The british say to truman, look, if you care this much about the cure peen jews, take European Jews, take them into the United States. Truman knows, hes much smarter about domestic politics than british politics or international politics. Truman knows he cant do that. Thats not possible. That the hostility of the European Jews, the misunderstanding of what has happened to them is such that congress is never going to allow them into the country. On truman too, there was a question i had, there was a sort of a theme in the book or a few themes thrown together, and this goes back to the camps themselves. And word gets back to truman that the situation is really dire, and these camps are really, you know, people are suffering. And he talks to eisenhower and basically tells him to clean it up. And, you know, eisenhower goes back and goes through a tour of the camp. In mar, the jewish camps dub in particular the jewish camps, right . And makes it a point that these are under United States authority, and were going to clean it up. Did i read that right . Was that an a act of humanity, or was i kind of row romanticizg truman and eisenhower a little bit in light of more recent events where we see the treatment of displaced people under United States authority . You know, truman and eisenhower come out as the heroes in this, in this book. I mean, flawed heroes, but heroes nonetheless. Truman recognizes from the very beginning the plight of displaced persons and the jewish displaced persons. And, you know, there are those who said clark gifford, his adviser, says its because he had read the bible early oranges and he knows the j early on, and he knows the jews belong in israel. I dont know if that thats but the pain in the beginning, he kind of realized what a mess europe was. Nobody knew how many jews had survived. We knew that millions had been killed, but no one knew what the condition was or how many made it out of the camps. And there was this sense, the state department had this sense and the british had this sense the jews have suffered, but so has everybody else in this war, and we cant single out the jews. The jewish organizations in the United States and in britain said the jews have suffered more than any other group, ask they need special treatment and they need special treatment. The American State Department and the United Nations in the beginning said, no. The british said absolutely not. The j e ws will be treat thed like everyone else. Well, the jews were treated like everyone else, and the suffering was intense. And finally in july, two months after the war was over, in july truman sends a Factfinding Mission led by dean harrison, Earl Harrison at the university of pennsylvania, and he sends harrison who was not a zionist, was not a jew, sends him to camps. And harrison come cans back with a report comes back with a report, and he says we are treating the j e ws just as badly as the germans did except were not exterminating them. Truman reads this report and writes his letter immediately to eisenhower and says to eisenhower, youve got to take care of this. This is inhumane, this is impossible, this is unamerican. And eisenhower, you know, goes to work. Thats great. I wanted to, you mentioned before the i want to move to the cold war aspect of this. And could you say a little bit more about sort of the soviet interest in this whole situation . How does it look from moscow as theyre looking at this problem, and how does this drift into the beginning stages of the cold war from the east . The sow can yets know the soviets know that large numbers of collaborators and war criminals is have escaped from the east, have escaped from the baltic nations, from belarus, from ukraine and made their way into germany. And, you know, i in the book i tell many stories of war criminals and collaborators who throw away their uniforms and all the papers that they have, invent new histories for themselves, find their way into the displaced persons camps. Whats in the displaced persons camps [inaudible] armory workers, factory workers. The soviets know and the poles know and the yugoslavs know that there are these war criminals there, and they want em delivered to justice, number one. Number two, they know that there is a cauldron of anticommunism in these camps, and its going to affect the future direction of europe and the world, that having these dedicated, un, you know, recalcitrant anticommunists and antisoviets let loose in the world is not going to i mean, its going to cause them hardship. And then the third and maybe the most important reason is the soviets and the poles and the yugoslavs have an extraordinary task of rebuilding their a nations. And i think need every neighbor they can including, including the members of the last million who are idle in germany rather than returning to poland to rebuild the devastated country. So i want to turn now to the United States. So it takes a while, and i dont remember exactly when it happens, but we do there is a bill passed in the United States congress by president truman for resettlement of refugees here in the United States. A couple years later. This is the big question, and im sure everybody will feel this when theyre reading the book, you know, why doesnt the United States yeah, you can talk about the other countries as well, but ill focus on the United States sort of do more to sort out the war criminals, the clap raters, the nazis collaborators, the nazis and others as they begin to issue visas for resettlement in the United States . All the time it was felt that the americans and the british and the canadians and the australians didnt keep the war criminals and collaborators out because they didnt know how to do it. In doing my research, i discovered that wasnt the case. In every displaced persons camp, there was an historical commission. In poland the surviving jews immediately established a historical commission. In austria the most famous of the jewish were the nazi hunters sets off a commission. They take testimony from the displaced persons. They have lists, long lists. They know where were you in the cast of displaced persons. Who among them should be tried. No one consults them, no one gives a damn. And one of the reasons for this is that the memories of world war are obliterated by the fears of cold war. Hitler has been defeated, so the sentiment is in the United States. The fascists, the nazis have been defeated. Theyre not coming back. The danger moving forward is from the cold and this notion that there is such a thing called totalitarianism and that stalin is a last orer day hitler latter day hitler, the soviets are the same as the germans, and weve got to turn from fighting one war to fighting another almost immediately. And so what if some of these displaced persons were nazi collaborators, were antisoviet, fought against the red army. Isso what if they joined the ss, you know . Theyre anticommunist, and we need em now. Lets forget the past and lets move forward. And this happens. This happens everywhere. Theres a story i tell which just stays with me. A group of miners in england who discovered the miners are left wing, but it doesnt really matter. They discover that the latvians, displaced persons who are working with them in the mines, have ss tattoos, and they threaten to go on strike unless somethings done about it. And when this gets back to the government, the Labour Government says, well, what well do is well keep all the ss soldiers, well keep them out of the mines, and well put them in jobs where they dont are have to take off their shirts, and no one will see their tattoos. In 1950, 1951, the americans changed their regulations, their immigration regulations to let in former members of the ss. Its not a pretty picture. And its because this country or congress i dont know about the people on the street but congress is beset by this cold war hisster ya. So, david hysteria. So david, as i was reading, so i understand that in the context of the time, the 1940s into the early 50s, there does seem to be a little bit right toward the end of the book maybe in the 1980s and maybe its just time goes by, but 30 years later, you know, and maybe simon weesen that would becomes well known, there is this wave of famous cases, you know, ivan the terrible and all these things that sort of puff if up. I think of it during the reagan years. Is that just a function of time in way . The power im just curious how you read that. Where it kind of bubbles up. It bubbles up in the United States. Yeah. 50 of the time hes wrong. He accuses people who he shouldnt accuse, but 50 of the time hes right. And he has, there is this residue of nazi hunters who nobody listens to for 30 years. And beginning of the 70s, reporters and journalists who some of them jewish, some of them not jewish look again at what is, went on 30 years before. And there begin to be leaks from ins. The ins leaks to reporters and to congressman Elizabeth Holtzman that there are lists of nazi collaborators who were let into the country as displaced persons. And because of the crusade of the journalists and of liz holtzman and a couple of other congressmen, the question is reopened in the United States. And once the United States begins to look again at what happened 30 years before, how did these people get into the United States, how many are still here and what can we do about it, the canadians, the australians and the brits begin to start the same process. Regrettably, its too late. Its too late. Even those who were brought to justice, you know, had a good 30 years in the United States. Their crimes went unpunishedded. So i just wanted to let the audience know, i have a couple more questions for david, but i do want to encourage those who are watching if you have a question or a comment to submit them via the chat function, and well try to get to those towards the, towards the end of the hour. So, david, i cant resist asking this question. Im sure a lot of people are thinking it, and i do want to avoid sort of simple or facile comparisons, but were living in a world now where there i looked this up, there were just last year 80 million forced displaced people in the world. So, you know, this is a live issue in a different way, but im just, i just have to ask you having, you know, spent all this time on this story and in telling this story, you know, what does it leave you with now as you look at the worlded today, Lessons Learned or thoughts that you could connect to the situation we find ourselves in today . One of the tragedies in this presentday situation let me start with the most obvious, to me at least. In 1943 roosevelt establishes an International Organization because he understands that this is an International Problem that requires International Cooperation. Until, you know, the present administration, the United States believed in International Cooperation to do something about the refugees. Now, having said that, the obligation of the unitedded nations and its participating nations has been not to repatriate or resettle the refugees, but to shelterer and feed and supply them with minimal medical assistance in the camps. In the 70 years since the end of the displaced persons camps in germany, the sense has been that the limits of the worlds responsibility is to make sure none of these people starve. Not to allow them to lead meaningful lives through repatriation or through resettlement. And this is a tragedy thats, its only going to get worse. In my book at the end, the only place for the displaced j e ws to resettle is in independent us israel. And i israel. And i make the argument that truman supports the establishment of [inaudible] us israel, because he knows that in order to establish an independent security which the west needs as the bulwark of an anticommunist coalition, hes got to get the j e ws out of germany. It cant be a west germany with 250,000 jews in camps. And the only place he can get them out, he cant get them into the United States, is israel. So he supports an ine dependent us israel. But where do those jews go . Where did the European Jews go . They are settled in rural communities, agricultural settlements, in houses and in apartments that have been cleared of palestinians by the israeli army. Or, in the case of those who had left voluntarily, the israelis refused to let the palestinians return. So the displaced the problem of the displaced jews is softed softed is solved by the displacement of palestinians. And while i do not want to diminish the suffering of the j e ws who end up in us israel, their displacement lasted five years. The displacement of the palestinians is now into its Third Generation . With no signs of their ever being repatriated. Thank you. So my last question, and im going to then move it over to alex woodson whos going to sort of tee it up, and maybe he can tee it up with this first question. But i did want to make note of the theme of aftermath, of the way that you conclude the book, the sort of coda to the book. Of its titled aftermath. To me, that sort of suggests some idea of regeneration or some, some growth. I dont know. I mean, its sort of, i guess, the tragedy then leads to some redemption in some way, i dont know, or maybe it just spins off another one. I dont know, i just want to before i let you go and go over to questions, i mean, do you have a sense of redegeneration here, or to you just redemption here, or do you feel like the cycle just kind of repeats itself . Let me tell two stories quickly. Yeah. One, peter meyers told me, and theres a new book about the holocaust, and it tells about two displaced persons who when they arrived in israel, are sent to an apartment. And as they move in, they see that the apartment is fully furnished, and they realize that its there because its been, because the palestinians have left. And they look at it and they think about their suffering, and they turn around and they leave. They wont live there. The second story is about a man named itselfic and his wife lola. When i met him, he was 98. His wife lola was much younger, she was 96. And they had met in they had known each other in poland. They had met in dachau and then gotten married. And the two of themed had lost their entire them had lost their entire families and suffered immensely in camp after camp after camp. And through the kindness of cousins, their only remaining relatives in the United States, they were resettled, relow caughted relocated. He was a locksmith. They found work for him, they found a home for the family. They raised three kids. They had a large brood of grandchildren come to visit them in their assisted living facility. And at the end of this discussion, i look at itz health care ik, and i itzhik, and i say, i try to ask a final question, and he looks at me knowing what im going to ask, says its a good life. He says ive had a good life. He said i love my wife, weve been married for 70 years, i love my children, he said, i want to thank my cousins in america for finally letting me in. Thank you. I want to make sure we have some time for some questions, so im going to turn it over to my colleague, alex woodson, and hes going to ask on behalf of those who have been writing in. I see the chat lines really lighting up. So, alec are, over to you. Alex, over to you. Great. Thanks, joel. First question is from deborah rogers. Can you speak about the survival spirit and how people kept hope alive . Its an extraordinary, you know, its an extraordinary story, and i dont want to downplay it. Especially in the jewish camps. The surviving [inaudible] as they called themselves, recognized that mourning was a luxury. They would not forget the sick million, but the six million, but their task was to resurrect judaism. Not in europe. They were all clear about that. With the poles, the poles believed that in exile, the anticommunist poles, that it was their job, that it was their task, that it was their mission to resurrect the cultural nationalism to keep it alive. So the spirit in these displaced persons camps was not one of defeat or victimization, but one of preparation for the next that that the next stage in their lives which were the hopes they knew they would follow. Thanks. This is from david kent. Kind of a personal question. My father was a jewish refugee from austria who escaped to england in 1938, was interned in australia from 19401942 and then returned to england. He came to the United States as a displaced person because [inaudible] how could he have come as a displaced person when the u. S. Didnt pass the act until june . He definitely came as a displaced person. Yeah, there was a you know, i havent9 talked about it in this interview. There was a truman directive, and truman, in large part because he couldnt get the british to move, said that the german and the austrian quotas would be enlarged, would be combined, number one. And number two, he set up offices in and around the displaced persons camps to provide visas under the quotas for those who could establish german or austrian citizenship in some way. So a small number of german and austrian jews were allowed to enter before the displaced persons act. The germans and the austrians were not considered displaced persons because they, the displaced persons that the u. N. Defined as those who had fought against the germans, the germans and the austrians were not displaced persons. But under the truman directive, some of them were allowed to enter the country. Okay. Next question is from Carnegie Councils grady jacobson, massachusetts. We are often taught as children in the u. S. That the liberation of European Jews from nazi germany was a major reason the allies fought in world world wa. So if the allies were not immediately concerned with the injustice perpetrated on the jewish people, indeed mistreated them at as well, at what point did the attitude toward them change . Is this more of a failure of the historical curriculum . Its abundantly clear to me that the war was not fought to save the jews. There is no evidence whatsoever that it was fought to save the j e ws. As a matter of fact, roosevelt and his cabinet went out of their way to discount any word that american boys were being sent over to save jews. The war was fought for a variety of reasons, but the rescue of the j e ws was never part of that. And if thats currently in the textbooks, then thats just wrong. When the war was over, the common sense call view is that, you know, americans opened their arms, their pocketbooks to save the jews who they had not saved during the war. Six million had died. But a quarter million remained. And the common sense view is that, you know, again, we opened our arms and welcomed them. That was not the case. In the end, of those quarter million displaced jews, only about 50,000 came to the United States as displaced persons. Some of those who went to israel because there was no place else they could go later came back to the came to the United States. But the number of displaced jews who were allowed into this country was minimal compared to the need. This is more of a comment from phyllis lee. Nonresettlement is a tenet of International Law set up by the unhtr. Going home could lead to death. There are obligations by receiving countries. Some jews were forced to settle in germany, sadly. Even us israel didnt take in everyone at first. It wasnt until 1955 that israel was willing to do so. I yes. Yes and no. Us israel in the very beginning, bengurion said we will take all the jews, they can come. And israel set up a organization to bring the jews who has tuberculosis, who were sick, who were infirm to bring them to us israel. There were gross large numbers of jews who remained in germany were those who had gone to us israel, found that they couldnt live there because it was in a state of war, came back to germany, and there were groups of orthodox j e e ws who re jews who remained in germany. But for the most part the israelis accepted the jews. There are questions about whether they could have treated them better once they got to israel, and there was also some resistance to bringing them into the country. But israel did open its doors. It felt an obligation to take in as many jews as wanted to come to israel. Okay. This question goes back to one of joels, but a little bit more specific. Its from Carnegie Councils billy picket. Are there any lessons we can learn from the last million when looking at the u. S. Border with mexico . Yes. Yes. Yes. [laughter] let me start with two. One erik there hag to dr we have there has to be a factbased approach. So all of us have to do everything we can to counter this myth of mexicans who tonight want to work hard or theyre criminals or hondurans and colombians are gang members. I mean, there has to be a factbased realism. At the same time, you know, humanitarian interests at some point have to override geopolitical interests and political interests and political differences. And we have to open our hearts and our souls and our minds to the crisis on the southern border. And, you know, theres no sign that that is being done under the current administration. One would hope that it changes. Alex, i can take it now. Were coming to the i want to make sure david had a chance to sum up. David, i have a big question. We may have to have a separate conversation over lunch sometime about i dont want to get into counterfactual history, but i know a big part of the book you were talking about how, as you were saying, the war really doesnt end, and it blends into the cold war. Did you give any thought to sort of a counterfactual about some things that could have been done differently . And maybe it feeds off the answer you just gave. But, you know, were we able to sort of go back there in time seeing cold war on the horizon, you know, how this problem might have been addressed in a way that would have been more positive and led to perhaps less confrontation with the soviets. Yes. I think it would have been possible to cooperate with the soviets and what the soviets wants was the soviets had a lot of the nazi records, a lot of the german records. The soviets also had eyewitnesses in the Baltic States and ukraine who knew who the war criminals were. And if the americans had cooperated with the soviets, war criminals would have been found and brought to justice. Now, the americans didnt cooperate with the soviets because we didnt trust the soviets, and we were right to. But, you know, you dont have to trust them we didnt have to trust them entirely to enter into some sort of cooperative relationship with them. Early on. And that was not done. And as a result, the soviets were convinced that we were keeping these war criminals in the camps because they were anticommunist which was possibly true. And then the hostility between the soviets and the American Coalition increased to the point where it was unmanageable. Is so were right now at the top of the hour, so we have to adjourn this session. David, thank you very much for spending this time with us. This is one of those books where it really is another lifechanging experience for me. It really makes me look at the end of the war in a completely different way. So thank you so much. Well look forward to a continuing conversation in the future. Well, thank you. This has been a terrific conversation. Thank you very much. Thanks everybody for listening. Okay. Well adjourn. Byebye. And heres a look at some Publishing Industry news. The Justice Department is suing Stephanie Winston walcoff, a former aide to maine hand ya trump, over the release of her recent book that focus on her relationship with the first lady. The suit claims that she broke a nondisclosure agreement that she signed. A lawyer calls the claims, quote, entirely meritless. Author bill bryson has announced his retirement. The 68yearold author of numerous books that include travel memoirs and histories has decided that, quote whatever time is left to me on this planet, id like to spend it indulging myself rather than going out and trying to cover new territory. In other news, the American Booksellers Association has launched the boxedout campaign that is critical of amazon and draws attention to the current struggles facing many independent bookstores. In a Statement Released by the aba to explain the campaign, they said, quote when these independent bookstores close, covid will be listed as the cause of death. But the preexisting condition for many a may be listed as amazon. The brown boxes that have become ubiquitous in building lobbies and on porches are boxing out bookstores and other Small Businesses all across the country. Also in the news, npd book scan reports that print book sales were up close to 8 for the week ending october 10th. Adult nonfiction sales rose 7 for the week, and are up almost 2 for the year. And one of William Shakespeares first folios sold for close to 10 million during a recent auction held by christies. There are 235 copies of the first folio in existence which was published in 1623 by shakespeares friends following his death and includes 36 of his plays. Booktv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. You can also watch all of our past programs anytime at booktv. Org. Heres a look at some books being published this week. In the cost, fox news Maria Bartiromo and the wall street journals James Freeman argue that President Trumps economic plan can help revive the u. S. Economy. Author and political commentator david roth cough provides a history of american traitors and argues that President Trump is one of them. And in apollos arrow, sociologist nicholas explores the Lasting Impact that the coronavirus pandemic will have on our society. Also being published this week, an american on the jay john, yale contagion, a yale law professor looks at how american law has responded to contagious diseases throughout history. Sally hubbard suggests ways to fight back against large corporations in monopolies suck, and the first of a planned twovolume biography of the late democratic senator ted kennedy in catching the wind. Find these titles this coming week wherever books are sold, and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. After the gig, sharing economy has been hijacked and how to put it back. Julius or is professor of
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