Visiting special agent with the fbi. In this unit highprofile before during and after the 911 attacks in recent years, investigative skills to the private sector. And do of this group. In the founder of the center. It in a specialty is Global Security affairs. Everything from culture to state actors to nonstate actors and i will try to explore as much about todays we can. One thing that i want to point out that each day published this bookings which is something we should really actually you should read everyday. Its a wonderful deep dive into a timely issue goes to the heart of what we should be thinking about even if it is not in the headlines. Anything from white supremacist them to what is happening with al qaeda and ice is now to the geopolitics of nationstate and regional powers. I encourage you to read everyday. I also encourage you to read morning briefs which is a fine Group Sponsored and National Security producers which is in the 14 year. And bringing to the news everyday about what you should be thinking about with National Security and a variety of dimensions. So thank you for joining me today welcome. Ali soufan thank you. It. Karen please ali soufan. Karen i want to start by talking about the book then we will move onto other things. And as you know from your indication, you can buy this online by pushing the button to buy it. If you have any questions along the way, you can chat and eventually i will get to them. I want to go to the title of the book, when it first came out in 2011, it was, subtitled the inside story of 911 and the war against al qaeda. And now, its torture. And i say that because so much of what is been rejected and classified had to do with torture, your involvement in interviews with al qaeda and others and i want to get to derailing the war on terror before we get to what is actually different about this edition of the book. So lets talk a little bit about how this war and terror was derailed and how this book deals that. Ali soufan whatever the book, neck in 2011. This was supposed to be about about recounting my own personal serving the nation and the war on terrorism. Then the book went to being a publication that can spark a conversation. Based on the facts. Based on reality in all of the successes that we have had after 911. And actually the successes in the previous years but also the things that we had in our response to 911. Which is the iraq war in 2003 for torture is another example. So when i submitted the book to the fbi for review. And anyone can expect a process. But it was a productive process and they asked me to change a couple of things which did not create any problems for me because these things were kind of within the boundaries of any prepublication review. Unfortunately after they did the review, they send it to the agencies. And initially the agencies reviewed the good and then suddenly started to get crazy as you probably see from the first one. It being redacted in anything that has to do with actually happen that in the rooms against terrorist suspects, how we get information, what really trained letter on, all of these things work redacted. So again, torture did not work. This is not how you get information regarding it. I cant state how did we get the information. How did they get this information. [inaudible]. In amongst everything that has to do with the alleged efficacy of the Technique Program. Was redacted. Everything that was describing the process of the distortion. So if you are fourth torture. You can do anything you want and youre able to publish it. In the review board did not. So if you have a problem and what happened if you are telling the truth about what took place in these interrogation rooms, it was redacted. So after several years of fighting and after the. [inaudible]. They challenged the reduction of the black banners draft. The government asked if they can do another review of the book. In this time, they were very fair. For the most part, everything that redacted has been unredacted targeted and now people can read exactly what happened. So the very First Edition of the book the black banners declassified, one about the war on terrorism in jail, everything that happened from the date in the United States until the death in may. So now, the same book, but there is some inch information that is been classified on the National Security grounds of the first time, that makes it another book. It did not exist. In most of this has to do with the tradition Technique Program with torture and when you read it and when you see it, youll see how that program was devastating to the interest in devastating to all of the success or the lack there of in the war on terror. So also with the cia and the leadership. For taking this amazing step of institutional transparency. In d classifying the black banners so the people now can read the truth. Because what i said in this book back in 2001, my firsthand experience. I was in the interrogation rooms that i saw what was happening. And in any instances, i got the information from someone or i personally got it. When you look into this new say, okay, your account and be classified National Security, what you actually are admitting is the truth. Because you dont classify lights. If i was lying, in 2011. No, i would just say he was lying. So now, ironically, that helped the truth in the long run. Now when people read what happened there, and what happened with different people. [inaudible]. Partyware is now the truth. So any people who through all of the successes and mated as the result of these techniques. And that is why the decision to change the subtitle of the book to focus on the traditions in the torture, this is the first time we will read exactly what happened in interrogation rooms. We will have a front seat to the interrogator geisha room into the black lives. Karen so is a rare occurrence for something to be classified by former official in the way yours has been declassified. Probably unprecedented in your particular case and in your different circumstances. When you think they got declassified. Do you think it had anything to do with reports. Or anything to do with the cia trying to send a different message. How do you account for this. Ali soufan i think the first of all, i am grateful. For the law clinic. I am grateful for all the people who helped me with david kelly, my attorney who was with me from day one. Finding for this for the detoxification. But i believe that a lot of people wrongfully and you and i talked about this, believe that the torture program was a program. I dont believe it and we had these discussions unite, did before. The torture program, even the Inspector General defined it as a different kind of program, unit with the cia. [inaudible]. A lot of people in the cia, a lot of the officers were not under cdc. You will see it now in the book were against this program more than i was. So that is why so any people went and complained to the Inspector General and the Inspector General to an investigation. And then in his infinite intent investigation, cannot find anything that was destructive it to the element, that is number one and number two, he said that the Interrogation Program worked. And then its a subjective matter, very difficult and we dont think there is anything. So the cdc program defined. In the second mistake that a lot of people made, fbi versus cia and unplug now the both have been unredacted. Because it shows that it was not the fbi versus cia. It was washington hiring a contractor to oversee the program. Because then basically the cdc at the time. And then how now we look at everything that happened and we find out what i was talking about in 2002. And in 2011, i run it and that it was redacted for now you can read that it was happened for example, we could not prosecute any of those people for anything even though they have american blood on their hands. Because of what they went through at that site. I believe theres a lot of new people in the cia. And in the Intelligence Community and a lot of new people in the government that believe that the cia Inspector General can create it. The believe these things in the book. They believe they came up with. Thus people are built. Not involved in all of the problems of the past. They didnt make these decisions in the past. Those people lofgren as i think a lot of people wanted to turn the page and wanted to put everything out. So much of the sector. So theres a transparency here that we did not see in the last two decades the minute. That is why the timing of the release of this book is extremely important. We face today is a political culture based on alternative facts and talking points and on conspiracy theories but this did not start with trump. This is been going on in our political culture for a long time as we seek the trump is just a step to towards, a logical step. To what is happened. What of these issues. [inaudible]. If you believe in, mostly your republican if you dont, then youre mostly probably democrat. And everything looks in this what President Trump at the time candidate trump was saying that i want to bring back the borders. It was something that can bring the cheers of the crowd. But now, you will have the opportunity to save the facts behind this. Dissing the truth behind the disinformation about the efficacy of the interrogation system. And you will see how that these Different Levels operationally and strategically totally failed hurt our National Security interest. Karen we often hear the phrase, torture doesnt work right. It and these dont work or didnt work. Ive always been curious, what is actually the main. Can mean so any different things. Can be that you dont get the information. Thank mean all of them. Dont get the information at all. It means that you get that information. It means a variety of things we talked about institutionally down the road like not being able to try people. Even when you say eit student work. Help us abou tell us about whatu are talking about. Ali soufan you are right. It means lot of things but im going to talk about it from a different point. Every country that torture does not a stable country. I want to go back and show you that the terrorism that came out of the egyptian jail. Im not going to go down that path. Lets talk about the United States. We are a nation, we have prosecutions and amendments. Two prohibit this kind of treatment. So we took an oath to protect the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And these d constitutional protections have no, humane treatment. All of these kind of things that we are talking about. But also the cornerstone of International Policy and who we are as a nation, the believes in freedom and democracy, a ronald ragan said, shining sea on the hill. We advocate for the human rights, we have a review that goes from the state departments, we call the enemies. [inaudible]. And allies who practice sleep deprivation. These are taken from the 2002 departments to the court about ally countries in the world. [inaudible]. When we do it ourselves. So if you have significant contradiction, between the lost, between who we are as a nation, between what we say publicly and then between art strategies. When these things do not go handinhand together. If you know yourself and you know your enemy. Imagine if you forget about yourself and who you are, you have no clue about the enemy. Youre going to fail. Thats why members of al qaeda on the evil 911, because the United States trillions of dollars just to become 40000 members today. And now all across, somalia and other places. You name it. It they can modify canada, denounced the work, thats longer than world war ii, not a war altogether. And guess what. We are in such a dangerous situation today. And that is because a lot of these things. Because of strategic perspective. And our strategy. We were not seen together. Thats number one. The biggest disaster and everybody agreed upon this, President Trump, the biggest disaster is in 2003. We went to iraq, we invaded the country, hundreds and thousands of people are dead. Trillions of daughter and 10 have been wasted. Al qaeda was dying. And ultimately loss of life. They wanted evidence at the time this non and al qaeda were working together. Everybody in the cia and the fbi who knew them, we knew that they were not working together. That was not good enough. Right. So they took advantage and they worked with al qaeda. They tortured him. And then they said yes, there working together. [inaudible]. So we sit with these information to the National Security council. And secretary powell holiness volatiles the tooth. In talking about how al qaeda and saddam are working together to develop it was devastating. [inaudible]. And one more thing. We found out everything overlapped. We knew it was light. Even colin powell knew it was life. It did not make sense. And said to him, why did you like. Just when they were torturing me, you would say anything. Theres a big difference between compliance and cooperation. Compliance is what i want to hear. If they want to hear they are working together fine. Will torture a guide will get that information. And thats exactly what happened. It was very difficult for us to go to the white house and say, well, we torture them to get that information. So now, cooperation is the truth. So there is a difference between compliance and cooperation. We do not have unlimited resources to chase people around the world. It because of the false information they were getting. We wanted to stop it. What you seen this book how we were getting the facts. And in some of the threats for example about the Brooklyn Bridge for example. They were watching tv, and they showed a guy stepping over the bridge and they started to joke, how any will die if we blow up bridge. And then suddenly, within 24 hours and cnn, but we had this info. Oh no al qaeda blew up the Brooklyn Bridge. If theres a big gap between what we reported in what had been sold to the American Public at the time. So i think theres a big difference in compliance and cooperation. So this is an operation perspective. There are other elements that we do all the time is basically justice towards the end. Liberty justice, intelligence justice or ego justice. Panel we have today are people who have blood in their hands. We have a mastermind who admits more than 3000 americans and we cannot prosecute him even in a court. Because of ones did through this program. In the Inspector General warned them about that. And all of these things were unfolding back in 2002. But towards the end, you might have a lot of people continuing this. You have to think long term. Because after all, is us in the beginning, we are eight americans. We have law. It. Karen yes so, lets talk a little bit about the military commissions now torture has affected them. There is a disconnect. Want to try them. Its hard to get the information buried and all of these things complicate a legal process. Do you think though ever be charged. Spee tipped i dont know. I think it will be a difficult situation. I seriously think that some of these guys went through block sites and a lot of the information became tainted. Now how do you proceed with prosecuting someone when youre trying to classify the time. That that you work in this time. , that is the complexity and why up to 911, we still cannot prosecute some of these people. Despite looking at these profiles itself. Believe me, i know. We help the prosecution and llama and suddenly they have more evidence. We are able to find another judge to convict them and then to sentence him to death. So we know what we have internationally. But unfortunately, they will not allowed to talk to them. Because of the torture program. And were not aware of any of the information has came from the harsh treatment. Now people want to include these satyrs. [inaudible]. They still want justice. Karen one of the questions from our audience, somebody who worked in the middle east for more than five years and heard frequently how damaging the United States, do think we have buried that episode and if not what we need to do to various buried. Ali soufan think what is great about the United States that we eventually did the right thing. I think the wall world is seen these things happening. They think people like john mccain standing of god bless his soul. And support somebody like him. And they are saying men and women in the cia and fbi going to the Inspector General and complaining about what they had to do rc in the sites. Theyre saying what happened with the black matters now. How after nine years and has been unredacted and they can know the truth about the program. This is all positive for the americans. That everything that is happening, but there is still some light greatest dim but is still there. I think it is good. If you do know about all of the hearings that took place, basically the images of the graves were collected at an encourage more to go fight in iraq than anything else. Benefited al qaeda at the time. Tremendously but yes. It was disastrous. In disastrous for the iraqi people. So i believe that might turning the page, by having this moment of truth and moment of transparency and hopefully this will lead to a more accountability. I think we can move beyond it. Every country in the world is allowing and knowing of this mistake. And unfortunately we had a few mistakes. But i think the United States will move past this. Karen i want to talk a little bit about the region. In the tremendous instability of the region. And maybe tell me that its more stable than im suggesting. And certainly, the process that has unraveled to the state. Look at yemen, syria, you look at the difficulties of the afghan peace talks. Do you see this as going in any positive direction. How should we see what is happening. Ali soufan i think the middle east, its a way bigger mess now. I think you cannot betwee discon what is happening between the