Im stan deaton with the georgia historical society, and were so glad that youve joined us today for our special program. We are joined by dr. Andrew denson western Carolina University. The theme of this years Georgia History festival is about the importance of place in georgia, and were going to be really focusing today on the experience of the cherokee people in Georgia History. What happened to them and the way that georgians have remembered their history and their experience particularly with removal coming forward all the way up into the present. I want to welcome dr. Denton to our program andrew welcome and thanks so much for being here with us. Thanks, dan. Its a really good to talk with you all. Let me give andrew a quick introduction as i mentioned. Hes a professor of history at western Carolina University where he teaches courses on native american and United States history. He participates in their Cherokee Studies Program as you might expect he is the author of this book published by the university of North Carolina, press its called monuments to absence cherokee removal and the contest over southern memories. I mentioned published by the university of North Carolina, press in 2017. So andrew as i mentioned the theme and ill give the official title here of the Georgia History festival for 2021 and 22 is from marshes to mountains. Georgias changing landscape geography history and community really talking about the importance of place and the way the land has helped Shape Community and people over time. So lets start by talking about the cherokee if you will introduce our audience to whos the cherokee people or fit them into if you can a Georgia History and tell us about what happened. Sure. Well the center of the cherokee homeland traditional cherokee homeland is in president western, North Carolina. So not too far for from where i am today and really where where i work here in coloring North Carolina is really the very close to the heart of jugly. Jolieghi way to the ancient the traditional cherokee homeland. But that homeland extended into areas that are you know that now include parts of northern georgia and in fact areas that are now been northern georgia became particularly important in the after the American Revolution and individly part of the 19th century. Theres theres a during the American Revolution. Theres a bit of a i guess youd say a bit of a geographical shift as cherokees lost land in whats now about country of like, South Carolina and parts of North Carolina see a little bit of a shift with the center of things moving. I mean still centered, you know here in in the mountains but northern georgia becomes or whats now northern georgia comes quite significant economically and politically particularly when the Turkey National capital is located is placed in neoshota and your present day calhoun, so at land that is kind of claimed by georgia within a state borders in the early 19th century. Includes large tracks of cherokee territory and then of course probably the most famous way in which the Cherokee Nation enters into Georgia History is in the removal era, georgia. The state of georgia the government of georgia is the actor that does the most to create a political crisis for the cherokees in the late 1820s and 1830s that eventually results in the force migration of cherokees. Most cherokees not all cherokees, but most cherokees to the west to indian territory land that is is in the present continue within the state of oklahoma. So the Cherokee Nation in early, Georgia History operates almost as like a antagonist. I guess you would say to the State Government of georgia the state of georgia vigorously pursues the dispossession of the Cherokee Nationists as well as of course the muskogee nation the creek nation, so the presence of the Cherokee Nations very very important in early, georgia politics and removal is a central pursuing the removal of native peoples including the cherokees as a central goal of early, georgia. So because were talking about the importance of place how long roughly had the cherokee people been living in west what is now western North Carolina and northern georgia. Was this an ancestral homeland that went back centuries thousands of years. Do we know . Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean as far as cherokees are concerned, this is i mean, this is the homeland right . You know the only homeland the ancient homeland the the continuing homeland, so as i say the center of things tends to be more in kind of western of, North Carolina. But in terms of what cherokees historically and today identify as as their homeland, i mean this this is this is it both northern Georgia Western part of president western North Carolina parts of the up country of, South Carolina. Southeastern, tennessee this is this is where creation happens as far as like the oral tradition is concerned. This is from time and memorial if you want to use the the western term, so so this is this is it this is the center of things. So is it safe to assume then and not to romanticize any of this, but this isnt that north Georgia WesternNorth Carolina have been ancestral homeland of the cherokee for centuries millennia millennia, and so its safe to assume that there are cherokee berry rooms remains still in those areas if you were walking on the appalachian trail for instance. Are you very likely in a place where the cherokee would have been for millennia . Yes or um, you know turkey settlements most settlements of nonnatives in like early history of North Carolina or georgia. I mean tended to be clustered in, you know, valleys and places where you do agriculture, but you know if youre talking about like that black and trail or some of the high piece some of your sort of looking down upon places that have been inhabited for yeah for millennia. Just speaking about the place where i work coloring, North Carolina. Im in colorway we know from archeology on campus has really unbroken history of human habitation that goes back thousands of years. It was a cherokee town before it was a nonnative settlement, but then before its its even the town that ends up being identified as colorly. Its its a valley that turkey ancestors have lived in for you know as far back as as Human History goes. So yeah, these are ancient places. I mean northern Georgia Western i mean and really all all american places are ancient places. Theyre all someones ancestral homeland someones ancient homeland. Describe briefly than if you will the the kind of life they lived in these places before contact with a european imperial powers. Sure, so if youre talking about the i mean what historys called the contact era so theyre the early part of sort of the moment of the beginning of colonization cherokee people like many southeastern people something that would have been living in agricultural villages. I mean sort of farmers. I mean, i know many of many of the most popular images of native americans and American Culture kind of identify native americans as being like nomadic or not rooted in the landscape, but pretty much everybody here in is agricultural. The corn farmers although they also use a very wide variety of wild and and cultivated plants that were talking about agricultural towns. Um, its on the most important towns are also have at their center sacred earthworks. So mounds mounds that support Council Houses at the center which are religious and political and social centers of towns surrounding those areas you have houses made of wood and while end up and then agricultural field stretching along the creeks and the river bottoms. And so youre talking about a very a farming People Fairly sedentary people people that that use wide range of other resources, i guess whos saying the landscape, but but who are very much since were talking about place very much rooted in these specific valleys these River Valleys so like that tuckaseegee, where where i work the the little tennessee, so this is a world thats defined by these River Valleys and by these town organizations these agricultural town centers. But what role did the cherokee play in the American Revolutionists as american colonial settlement began to create westward, which of course i dont think but i dont think correct me but by the middle of the 18th century wasnt quite the problem that it would be in the early part of the 19th in terms of western american settlement, but they did have like most native tribes a key role in the American Revolution or i believe yes. Yes. So like most of the large native american nations in the interior of the eastern part of north america the cherokees who participate in the American Revolution do so on the side of the british there not doing this out of any particular like love for the british other cherokees had been military and economic allies of british colonies coming out of like, South Carolina virginia for for relatively long period of time but cherokees those who do participate in the revolution do so because theyre trying to use the alliance with Great Britain to push back against nonnative settlement. So this is used as i mean, its a its a gamble, but its used as an opportunity to push back against encroaching settlement and settlement in places like western, North Carolina or the upstate of South Carolina. This works out very badly. I guess you would say for for cherokee communities in response to cherokee attacks on frontier settlements in 1776, North Carolina, virginia, south, carolina, georgia. Send militia invasions into the Cherokee Country really really focused on sort of southeastern, tennessee and western North Carolina. And those those invasions those militia forces proceed to essentially destroy everything. They can find there there isnt much in the way of fighting. This is about the cherokee population large parts of the cherokee population being put to light and turned into essentially. Trees and so this is a desperately horrible experience the revolution this in this part of the world and its some of the language that you see around, you know coming out of like colonial leaders. Coming out of patriot leaders and the people involved in these militia invasions. I mean, its its pretty much genocidal languish and were talking about a need to drive cherokees from the frontier in order to as they see it eliminate a threat in the backcountry during this this crisis with Great Britain. So the revolution is is just a horrendously traumatic experience for many cherokee communities and it goes on the fighting thats tied to the revolution in the Cherokee Country as in other parts of native america, it goes on even longer than you know, the fighting between the colonies and Great Britain. Yeah the revolution the revolutionary war as far as the United States is concerned ends in 1783, but there are cherokees and other native peoples who are continuing to fight essentially a war thats rooted in the revolution. Well into the the 1790s and so its this long period of warfare that takes a a terrible toll on cherokee communities and other native American Communities. I mean the revolution is something of a tragedy for many native groups who participate not because not because of any of the issues we usually think about with in connection with the revolution they participate because theyre hoping to use this alliance with Great Britain as a way of protecting their own autonomy their own freedom and their own their own land. So you have this sometimes tell students. You have a set of native american struggles for liberty and freedom taking place in the backcountry, but these are being fought against the people. We usually associate with with, you know, sort of the struggle for american freedom. Yeah any idea how many people were talking about and not just in in north georgia, but in the eastern of the western part of North Carolina near where you are do historians have any rough guesses as the size of the population youre describing yes, i mean at the at the time of trying to think if i can remember the numbers that summer removal at the time removal in the 1830s youre talking about. Well, the 20,000 people or 50 50 to 20,000 people still in the cherokee territory. Thats thats a rebound from for the revolutionary era so the cherokee population kind of time restores is restored after the after kind of a low point in the revolution. So so yeah, i mean thats sort of the numbers are talking about specifically for cherokees. Um, so the cherokee are allowed with the british during the revolution, they continue to struggle against the americans of georgians as they move west in the years after the revolution so describe what happens because take them up to removal because by the time of removal in the american popular imagination the cherokee were a very different kind of people then what we traditionally think of and certainly what we have seen portrayed in Popular Culture as to what American Indians look like what they were doing what their society is like the cherokee were very different. Um, yeah, so the most famous image of cherokees in the early 19th century. Is this this idea of like pov civilized tribe quoteunquote which you know as a label thats applied by nonnatives to cherokee people and what that what that is with the sort of captures is the extent to which not just a charities but many native americans find themselves dealing with the United States. In the wake of the revolution begin to make adjustments essentially in an effort to find a future in which native nations can coexist with this new United States this very vigorously expansive United StatesUnited States that keeps coming back to them demanding more and more land and putting more and more pressure on them. And so in the early part of the late 18th early 19th century the United States encourages. Cultural social and economic changes in its in its relationships with with native americans cherokees have a reputation historically as being more receptive to those changes. I think in some ways thats thats a server romantic image as well as some of the other images that circulate in American Culture. So cherokees tend to for political purposes tend to play up the idea that they have. Adopted elements of your American Culture and society and economics in response to these these policies are encouraging those changes, but thats clearly an attempt to mollify the United States and to make the case that the United States can leave the Cherokee Nation alone and so in the public rhetoric you often get cherokee leaders in the early part of the 19th century say, oh, well, you know weve um, yeah, weve adopted yourself of agriculture and you know, weve left about you know, what theyll say is like weve left behind the hunt right . Were no longer following the hunting economy. You know, were farmers. Of course. They had always been farmers were farmers now, were becoming christians you get this plane to that that image of the civilized tribe a lot of things are changing, but its much more of a like selective adaptation and thats thats true. Not just a cherokee people but native groups all through the interior and the important thing to emphasize is that, you know cherokees could adopt elements of like your american in particular economic practices and has the most popular adaptation i guess do that without pursuing what none it is often think is happening, which is some form of assimilation or some form of a culturation which you tend to see in the Cherokee Nation and other places as sort of selective adaptation of specialty economic practices. Beyond that during this time you see cherokee officials. In some cases welcoming nonindian missionaries to come into cherokee territory instead of schools. This isnt again an effort to abandon cherokee ways, but its an effort to make sure that some people in the turkey nation are able to spe