Comcast along with these Television Support cspan2 has a public service. Welcome to afterwards on book tv. Who was reporting to . Title based on conversation i had with President Trump as i was becoming acting secretary of the interior and i sat down with the president and had a discussion about potentially taking this role after serving as deputy secretary and in the discussion we got into the discussion and i said good right report to . He said you report to me which was a difference perspective. I expected to be told i chief of staff or someone else so i walked out with that in my memory and it turned out it was true as i worked with the president i discussed issues with them and hee made inputs he wanted to make and it turned into a working relationship that was efficient and different than the experiences i experienced so i use that title as you be the book, it has a broader version. My view is all of the individuals whether in Civil Service or elected officials or the judiciary ultimately report to the American People. Will talk about about the relationship to the present, leader of the agencys bureaucracy maybe we should talk about interior department. Large organization, all things peoplele other than us not necessarily in the most famous, is one i know well but for those who dont study, talk about what it does. Absolutely. First, its an Important Agency in the department of the interior manages, approximately one in every 5 acres of land in the United States through the jurisdiction as well as activities that take place on the outer Continental Shelf so it has responsibilities related to those plans depending on their Direction Congress provided, some of these areas designated to be National Parks and others fish and wildlife. Other lands are designated multiple use landsur administerd by Land Management and the department of interior images more responsibly in the west through the bureau of information and an Important Role in the and i will and their responsibility. What is really interesting its an agency almost 29. The outcome of other cabinet departmentsai hoping to get ridf certain committees within their of the department of treasury it out of the work is General Land Office person in charge of land. War department transfer responsibly associated department of interior. Veterans pensions and benefits were part of the department of interior so even in the 1840s and 50s with this organization is complex based on a lot of stuff but a lot of apartments and want to focus on. You often see agencies that feel like the been there forever but some are new and some are very old. This reminds me 20 years ago in the department of Homeland Security to bring together different component parts, some new and some old times it is hard to work out how these things go in the same direction and 200 years old, it is difficult. Is specific within the apartment, specific agencies at different emissions so in the role of deputy secretary, youre often colonizing this different agencies in a way that works for your responsibly so that can have tension, a lot of public attention and you learn how to manage those ways that is consistent with the law and to the extent that it is appropriate with that direction. You had a long career there. Thats correct, i spent eight years as clinical 20 first working my way up in the Bush Administration and served as a solicitor of the department which is chief legal officer of the end of the george w. Bush administration returned Service Deputy secretary in the trump administration. But think of the book you report to me, how would you describe the relationship between the president and his cabinet secretaries . It is a relationship largely depend on the views of the relationship the president wants to have. Look at the constitution, is not a lot ofof direction on the Job Description of the relationship between the secretary and the president. The president points you have to be confirmed by the u. S. Senate and the constitution basically says the president can ask for a report. Ultimately the responsibility is associated with that are weighed out and law but you have to have a relationship with the president and for example when i sit down to talk about potentially serving secretary, a question i had was what did he want in the job of secretary depending on his interest the role may be something that was not the optimal candidate for so we talked about that and ultimately the president decides how that will work and the involvement the secretary and it is a personal choice in my opinion. The white house is a big place, the president core staff and advisors and National Security council, all that so when President Trump says youe report to him, i understand your his 20 and have a oneonone relationship but you are still short of working a lot with the team of the white house and the order structureak helps the process so how did you navigate that . Ad first, youre absolutely right. My perspective on the present direction was as follows. Youre working with everybody collaboratively because you are a team and you want to accomplish what you need toan accomplish and your part of an effort where the white house raises issues mentally or getting them ratings issues they are aware of activities these are your goals to me was ultimately i have the ability to talk directly where i needed or wanted to and to me that was different than the experience i had seen in the Bush Administration. At times in the Bush Administration, i witnessed it taking literally most rays mission to the president working through the white house process. With President Trump forward quickly allow you to resolve issues a pace that was dramatically different in my experience in the Prior Administration and that was. To me to any manager you want action from ati degree of consistency back or you are quickly and you want to know superior has your back. Everybody who works for anyone wants those things and as a layout in theo book report to e i felt i have. What is an example of that . One of the first actions, acting secretary and i blame this made the decision to utilize to address these National Parks and put maintenance who are really burning back to work during the shutdown and i knew it controversial but i raised the issue directly with the president and explained law is going to do and he said three things essentially. You are doing this now even though its been a while, maybe you should have done this sooner which was legitimate and responsible. Second, you are the new guy and maybe you ought to say i directed you to do this which i found interesting given i told him it would be controversial decision and third he said when you have something you think is right and need to do it, just do it and let me know and run the department the way you need to and that was enabling. To have that direction move forwardd thought it was incredible. Are doing with the leading a large cabinet level agency was statutory responsibly a huge team of servants and others who dont necessarily agree with the given president with this particular agenda, how would you describe the relationship between the agenciescy leader wl servants . First, it starts with this in tears congress verified supervised and it lists the functions and what is interesting is the word supervised is a word that conveysu an active sense like yu need to be on top of things, and element of accountability and you responsible for everything occurring which is significant. I was lucky when it first came during the Bush Administration, and the working in a small officeg and the great thing abt that was the folks there is hope the secretary shine no matter who the secretary was so that was an experience to work collaboratively. First, it i could perform in i work with them, if they collaborate with me and able to learn from their expertise and move forward. After the election what we saw was want media highlighting efforts to suggest folks in the Civil Service should be this is the new president and hours probably encouraged if you lookr back stories and i highlight the stories in thehe book and that s troubling because at the end of the day when you sign up for Civil Service and you take the same that everyone takes to execute the law, you buy into the system of whoever is a person selected, you need to carry it out according to the direction American People have picked. My first message laid out my view of theog need to Work Together and highlight perspective roles of political appointees. The book highlights a series of other agencies where you see lack of collaboration at different timeses and highlight great points of collaboration. President s frustration is an old story in washington. He joked that president eisenhower would arrive everything he does, things move a lot lower. Kennedy and his administration were frustrated. They are often frustrated with military bureaucracy. But think about republican president s being frustrated by domestic policies but happens on both sides of the aisle. That does seem to be a different recently in the last few administrations and like you said you had Civil Servant protesting around arrival. I remember epa protesting outside the building even before appointed to theed agency, what has changed. All of these things can be overcome but i do think on one hand it became socially acceptable to engage in this activity. The other hand it is impunity that there would be no consequence cracking in a manner that is unacceptable and they believe they are beyond appropriate and working with the white house on communications. She has this methodology the white house doesnt like what shes written to think changes to the edits but reinsert her own language that wasnt approved into the document and send it as a workaround and any other line of work, it would be latent insubordination. Here the person will highlighting doing that so it became acceptable. Part of itt in my opinion is the leaders of the agencies themselves along some of this to happen from not being clear that they are responsible for these documents, they will edit them, owned them and theyre going to do the effort and are willing to do the work, people will find a way to accommodate you and realize ultimately it does stop with you and you are willing to shoulder the, they are typically going to. A nonpartisan Civil Service is one of the great achievements of american history. After the civil war late 19th century, the pendleton act active, to get us away from the system where each newly elected president would head out jobs, professional Civil Service, it would carry over from one administration to the next. Stability in government, expertise and government and more. A moment ago you mentioned the roles of the Civil Service, maybe you could impact that, what are the respective role . At the end of the day, the secretary, for the people like it or not, whoever is appointed and confirmed his charge. The policy views are on one hand, a important component but equally important are the laws passed with administering, those of the truth responsibly and then you have facts and it is within the realm of looking at the confines of the law, the facts you have and the extent that there is instruction, but ultimately that responsibility rests with senior appointees. It is really the Civil Servants help the actual official, the principal make the right decision or take the right action and help them and inform them. In terms of assistance in carrying out responsibly. They are not there to be the policy director or an advocate for a cause to carry out the law conferred by congress in charge subject to the policy that exists. To do that, they are incredible people. Early on i worked for someone, she basically worked on the same issue for many years for consecutive administrations and anytime a Different Party came in to power, they would change on other and she had a document called environmental view and an impact statement and i was looking for it once and shegot to save her time every time somebody came back in andcc said we need help with this and those of the people that can really help you make phenomenal progress for whomever is in charge. Conversely if you have 1 of folks resisting, thats one thing, if you have 2 , thats another. Ju 10 or 20 or 15 my fear is, if we dont recognize the importance of Holding People accountable to their responsibly is, that number could grow depending on cleverly happened to not like things elected. Or first off, any fully and go to the general counsels office and raise issues with their supervisor and go to inspector general. The entire mechanism is it think it is inappropriate in terms of clinical in the office of special counsel, there is a whole list of remedies you can take beyond resistance or bad behavior and it should be taken. Many times an employee may not necessarily know the law or have the facts for a prospective and that dialogue is helpful. Other times the political appointee may be misinformed and the importance is the ability to identify the law in fact get the information to make an informed decision not is collaboration back and forth with the career staff. Endangered species act. Thets agency and the direct effects probably. You have people around the agency will have a broad sense of the agencys mission and look lawyers within the agency focusingre on the statutes, a common occurrence in the agency. You can have issues that people think are relevant. At the end of the day to have any certainty of our decisionmaking, how the law decides something, how regulation defines something is important. They could be a view on what it might mean, maybe you really should be ar broader definition so that is legitimate but the issue that needs to be taken up, change regulation or the statute, youou dont insert your view. There are a number of examples where there are terms commonly used as a meeting someone different than a particular context. The decades long fight over the waters of the United States and army corps and long scientific documents on how bodies of water are connected or not connected. Good folks in Civil Service doing the best job they can they often talk about the agencys mission. First and foremost anc broad see of the agencys mission and i dont blame them, they are not lawyers but politically appointed leadership movie agency went agency staff feels like the policies are at all but the general sense of an agencys mission . A lot of trust between leaders and income but staff. First and foremost, it requires you have to be clear and vigorous insisting thats what you are doing. She takes time to change. Im all folksks are passionate about their mission and thats fantastic, that makes things great but the passion has to be coverage by the reality ofw. The law and thats what i outline, at the end of the day congress decides what the law is. The executive branchan clarifies guidance and regulations and activities and have to apply that. They have to change law and that is great. Its not the role of the Civil Servant to simply decide what the law might be. The subtitle of the book is a accountability for the failing administrative state. There are significant reforms needed to the civilan service ad to bring about a new Generation Agency work that does follow each christmas direction. Absolutely. I believe when you look back at history, much of the environment created as lack of accountability and whats interesting is thats when a number of mechanisms work and it is the same time executive branch really began to expand the scope of the administration. All of the ability close to executive branch. What we need to do on methodologies of accountability and minimize opportunities for unneeded appeals, consider moving to the system to think about how we improve the system better access for the American People. Congress has a bunch off laws applicable procedure walls and the loss you mentioned in service and accountability and most of the agencies administer, you talk about how broadly their written and amongst discussion at the end of the agencies but a lot of the interior department and others are administering their complicated and require a lot of judgment. How could Congress Write laws clear and specific but still enable the agency to make judgment based on past . Congress could decide and play a role in the regulations which could approve them. What are the goals of the program . I believe they should be looked at and congress should say what are we trying to a publisher . If we are not, we ought to think about doing this different. Oversight involves a lot of work and effort. Year in and year out, its never about decreased thats how fast we are going to increase the program. These are questions if you assume we have limited resources, you assume one of the best outcomes we can have you would think congress would say when the purpose of the program, how can be done efficiently . Another larger Management Office and state office or Regional Office and headquarters and thats where it is aligned to interior started. You imagine the right policies for the discussion. The story you told earlier about the colorcoded environmental impacts on the one hand, a Civil Servant working from both parties. It is worko on to think they he to think about inevitable wild swings in policy one admi