For this really important conversation, not just about this book about but about the challenge year that have of bringing people and our country together. Elizabeth, youre this book is it was a thrill for me to read it in part because theres a little confirmation bias on with me. I think a lot of what youre talking about are things that ive experienced personally coming Rural America, but also things ive been talking a lot about and to have someone write, book and provide all of this incredible research and Data Analysis that you do in this book, that confirms what weve been saying for a long time, which is that we arent all that different in this country. And so a first question that i have for because i looked at your bio and youve written about art in new york, youve written about celebrity, youve written about a lot of different topics but you havent written before about america. And so as the daughter of danville, what drove you to write this book . Oh, thats a question, senator heitkamp, thank you for asking, and thank you for being with me today. Im so two reasons, actually. I have always been a student culture. My earlier i looked at the production of culture, particularly artistic culture and creativity. My later work looked at last book, the sum of small things, looked at the consumption of culture and and why we consume certain culture, not other culture. And in that book, i really started thinking deeply about this concept of Cultural Capital, which is sort of our, you know, the resources we amass in terms of our education and in terms of what we read, what we watch, what we listen to. And these become signifiers to the world at large and something thats resounded and i remember reading a socio religious piece on this, which really with me, which is that everyone has culture. And i think what happened in, in my last i really delved deeply into this was this idea that theres this elite Cultural Capital. You read the New York Times of the wall street journal, you listen to npr, went to an ivy league university. You have a law degree. You know, any myriad kind of attributes that are associated with a particular kind of Cultural Capital. And i really started thinking that we had this wrong, that this wasnt this was a form of Cultural Capital. It wasnt the only form of Cultural Capital. And i really started thinking about it vis a v where i grew up because i grew up in this small town in rural pennsylvania. Im the daughter of, irish immigrants. I was born in West Virginia. And this clip occurred where i was thinking about this idea of Cultural Capital and what it really meant and how it was different for different people, along with what was going on with the 2016 president ial actions. Thats when these ideas started percolating. For me, which was that everyone, my circles, the media i was reading, was talking about how Rural America was really angry. And thats why they voted for donald trump and, thats why we had this we have this divided country. And i thought about the place i grew up, the place i lived, i dont know, 13 years of my life, you know, and i thought, i dont think thats entirely whats going on. Its not that its not some of the story, but theres a deeper story. And so that was that kind of blending of understanding the culture of my hometown and Rural America and understanding more deeply what might be happening in Rural America rather than this. What i felt was a stereotypical and, you know, explanation of of why folks voted for donald trump know, i mean. When i was reading the book i actually thought that a maybe a more appropriate title your thesis wasnt you know the overlooked americans but the misunderstood america. Oh, i like that. The people that every. Yeah. Do i wish i wish id talk to you before the but thats a wonderful title but i think i think its absolutely true i think theres so much misunderstanding about both of of what that culture is, of what the rural culture and really a misunderstanding of the people who live in those places. And with that comes a lot of judgment. But throughout the book you explore a lot of data on that. That i think is analyzed in a very macro sense. When people talk about rural, but you drill down and do great storytelling telling about the people who live there, but also drive some in in how we need to look differently at the data that were looking at and one of the spots that i was particularly taken with is this notion, because i get it all the time, that Rural America voted for trump because theyre racist and think your book, just as such a phenomena of exploring that could you talk a little bit about you if you if you disagree with me on on how this perception and attitude is about Racial Attitudes in Rural America and then talk a little bit about why you made that such a part of your book. Oh, thank thats a thats a wonderful question senator heitkamp. So so theres a couple of things that really spoke me when i was engaging in this research. First of all, was my experience of living small town america, but then, you know, as a social scientist, you go in, do the homework, you say, well, my experiences, one experience was a lot of observation out there that need to be undertaken. So i spoke to and dozens of Rural Americans in, all sorts of places from missouri to texas to tennessee to the heart of appalachia, pennsylvania to ohio. And i asked them lot of questions about, you know, big, Big Questions about democracy. And then questions about equality in this country and one thing that was abundantly to me was that Rural Americans were as keenly aware, concerned about the issues of racial equality, our country as their urban counterpart. You know, the first thing that came to mind, you know, that people are treated differently. Theyre treated differently because of the color their skin. Thats not right. Weve got to do something about it. And this was over over again when i asked the question of, do you think america is an equal place. And, you know, essentially or why not . You know, i dont think there was anyone who thought that america was an equal place. And most folks said its not an equal place because. People are treated unequally because of their skin color. And some ventured because of their class, because of how much money they make. But really, the the racial element was very clear. The sensitive liberty to that. So one thing that, you know, when you do qualitative work, you always have to be wary, as are the people youre speaking to, telling you what you want to hear. You. They know, you know, im on this west coast, you know, liberal, academic, you know, they know my politics. Even having a conversation with me. And so you think, oh, maybe theyre just telling me what they know, what i want to hear. But i then at the university of chicago and i know your base there as well, you looked at university of chicagos General Social survey, and they do these amazing surveys of folks and theyve been doing it for decades on all sorts issues. And i looked at the questions on race and how rural versus urban americans responded and. You know, the first that top line take away is they largely feel same way they are they are largely supportive and and not supportive of social policies in equal. And the Biggest Surprise being take away from me was that some of the greatest champions for social intervention to the black community to elevate women were actually the least educated folks in Rural America. It wasnt, you know, the poster child of the progressive coastal elite that was, you know, responding to the support of certain kinds of social policies along the lines of race. It was actually elite. These uneducated, Rural Americans, these americans who didnt have a high school degree. And i thought, wow, that is a really surprising takeaway. And those survey results really corroborated exactly what the people i spoke to said. You know, and and i want to get into kind of the economics later on but i want to i want to explore the work that you did in analyzing who Rural America. I mean, if you probably and this is a generalization and i hate that when i do it, but if you probably talk to you, grab anyone at a mall or in suburbia or grab down downtown or in manhattan and ask them who lives in Rural America . Chances are theyre going to say conservative older white people who dont like us and and, you know, you you do some great work talking about regional differences and who lives in Rural America can talk a little bit about that because i think it builds on your your your warning to people who want to have an opinion about Rural America, builds on your warning that dont just draw with the broad brushstroke the south is different the midwest economically and certainly the south has many more africanamericans who live in Rural America. In my neck of the woods, many more native americans who live in Rural America, were seeing a growing number of hispanic who have moved for Economic Opportunity in Rural America. You talk a little about kind of regional differences and demographics and what surprised you . What didnt surprise you and how that plays into kind of the prevailing attitude about Rural America. So i think thats thats thats a really wonderful takeaway is that, you know, to to talk about Rural America is to high to million Different Things that is there is going on in these places. And so one thing thats really clear to me is that even if if were talking about social policy or were talking about Economic Development and you talk about versus urban america or just Rural America and this kind of take away that Rural America is in decline. You know, you got to footnote that, i would actually that Rural America is thriving on a number of different metrics but that there are certain regions that are in trouble and theyre in a very different situation for economic, social and to a certain extent cultural reasons. So one thing that was really clear to was that this idea of Rural America in decline really was actually a story about parts of america. One being appalachia, which is which is in trouble, and the other the deep south. And these are places that are economically depressed. They have significantly lower percentages of the population with a bachelors degree or above. And there is not as much of knowledge industry is coming in to them. And i spent spend a little time with that in a moment. And so thats i think, a very different story than if you look at, for example, you know, the the eastern seaboard. If you look at the coastal west, if you look at the midwest, which is on so many different metrics, i mean, the heartland is a great i mean, you know, if you want to have a great life move to iowa. Yeah, i mean, they seem to be just i mean, from the sheer numbers and the people i talked to, it seems like a great place to be. So. So i think that that is really important and then in terms of and you actually a great job highlighting the heterogeneity of the ethnic and racial composition of these different rural areas. They looked so much different from one another and also that they yes are older folks in Rural America. But are also younger folks. And contrast i really like make is you know when we talk about urbanity or cities right so for many us we think los angeles, new york, washington, d. C. And so forth. And yet we also lump, you know, akron, ohio or buffalo in the same story. And yet they have a very different economic situation. And, you know, these you know, quote unquote superstar cities and. I want to say its the same with Rural America. So Rural America has places that fit that stereotype. Theyre theyre poor people are do not have college. They maybe have a higher proportion of folks who havent finished high school. They dont have a lot of industry on shore. Absolutely those places exist. And thats a actually a real opportunity for policy create bespoke targeted interventions. But then you have like coastal england or rural iowa or, you know, rural wyoming and actually those places have high honor, high home ownership, high employment rates, very low unemployment, high median household incomes. And then you see both the concentration Industries Associated with them, like agriculture in in the midwest. But then you also see the trickling in of other Industries Like software and certain parts of finance that actually do end up in our rural, despite the fact that we associate as city city occupation, city sectors. And i mean, one of the things that i remind people, because i think, again, that if Rural America is really agricultural america, but a third of all Rural Counties are dependent mineral extraction, which has been created. And the places youre talking about where weve seen you decline appalachia are places where mineral extraction is not the economy that it used be. And so i want to i want to talk a little bit about rural selfimage because you do explore this thing in your book about cognitive dissidence. You know, its kind of like her we are, the rugged americans, individualists. We just count on ourselves and we dont we dont need the government. We dont need to be our we dont need the booster up. But, yeah, if you look if im if im representing urban america and you see now gavin newsom has been doing a lot of interviews talking about blue state economies versus red state economies. A lot of that by rural issues and the per capita expenditure in Rural America from the federal government is much higher than per capita. And in suburban. And so you look at all these measurements and and kind of attitude about who they are and how people look at them. And i think in your book, you drew a lot of, you know, examples from what people were listening to what people were hearing in terms of their their grievance. But can you talk a little bit about this . This chapter that you wrote on cognitive dissonance and and what your conclusions were relative to kind selfimage versus maybe the image urban america would have, but also the image that data would would inform . Wow. Thats a thats a wonderful question. Thank you, senator heitkamp. I ive got a lot to say. So let me try to coalesce my thoughts here. So this this chapter starts out with this wonderful woman, shannon and i met shannon through that kind of a network of folks. I didnt know. And then they recommended this a method called snowball snowball sampling, where you kind of get context with the people you interview and so forth. And at some point, i landed upon shannons name and i emailed her and she wrote me back. That was one of the most warming experiences of this book, was the fact that these folks who did not know me and absolutely there was nothing in it for them every time i sent them an email, they would respond immediately. I mean, and give me hours of eir time. So shannon was one of those people and when we first spoke, i, you know, i asked her, my usual run of questions, the same questions i ask everyone and you you just sometimes you have these energies of people just kind of i really liked her like. There was just this kind of energy. I got from her. And just as people we clicked. And yet what she would say was totally the opposite of how i thought about the world, you know . I mean, it was just the weirdest experience of like really her wanting to, like, grab a coffee with her. And youre also thinking, wait a second, you are you havent gotten vaccinated youre you made it very clear youre not planning to. You really dont believe in change. You the 2020 election, youre a big supporter of donald trump on you and you are you question Marriage Equality and these were literally anathema to my way of being and my politics. And yet there was such a warmth and i enjoyed every time we had a chance to connect, i enjoyed it so tremendously and i thought a lot about this and i realized that the problem and you you you cited the chapters title cognitive dissonance. The problem is you this idea that you feel these kinds of seemingly opposing sentiments about something some person, some issue, right. But in reality, i, i had this kind of breakthrough, which was that i was losing sight of the things about shannon that were why i liked her, you know. So i was focusing so much on this discord in our politics and not realizing there were really good reasons to like shannon. So one of the things that just really kind of overwhelmed me was a question i asked all of the people i interview is if you had all the money in the world, what would you do . And you know, people say all sorts of things. They say i would buy my mom a house. I would go on vacation, i would pay off my mortgage, i donate it, you know, you know, any number of things. But shannon, when i asked her that question, she said, well, i would i would i would buy an orphanage. And i would buy an orphanage for of the children who have lost their parents to drug addiction. Its a real problem here. Paraphrasing her. And she said, i would also buy all of the people, the people who were recovering drug addicts, i would buy them new teeth because you dont smile if you dont have teeth. And yeah, it was so incredible, so so i have a question for you do you think shannon changed her opinion about the class or