Transcripts For CSPAN2 In 20240704

Author jeff, you opened your recent book with this quote from Rick Perlstein the historian. Crosscutting motives and narratives the complexity that defies storybook simplicity that is usually the way history happens. I think it is the most cogent ive ever heard. Rick does a tremendous job himself, and its true no historic event happens in vacuum. Its tied to many other things and that is the fascination in research and writing on the narrative nonfiction history. To read a quote from you as well and this is from 2021 in the cleburnene times review a lt of people no longer want to buy nonfiction to learn things. They want nonfiction bks to reflect what they already believe, books to reinforce their opinions. They want books that tell them everything they believe is absolutely right and that the other side is even worse than they thought. If you take a look at the bestseller list for nonfiction for the last several years, theres three categories generally represented. The first books by political commentators in the public mind with one side or the other talking about how the nation is in danger from the opposition. That america is going to hell. Heres what weve got to do to save the country starting with you watching my network and buying myse books. The second category is religious in nature, how i came to understand gods plan for my life, what god wants us to learn from reading the bible, and of e third category is what i call the magic button. Ten ways you can make your fortune. Nine ways to ensurea a happy marriage. There are fewer and fewer titles represented on the bestseller list that are simply fact filled and look at certain aspects of American History but theres still people who want to read those and its important to get the history down. Thats what i try to do. Tell us then what do bonnie and clyde, david, charles manchin have in common, people that youve written about is there a thread through that . Oddly enough, there is. My goal has always been to write books that capture the sweep of American History from the final settling of the west to the present day. Each of the subjects are iconic. We remember them. A lot of times they want myths rather than facts. Ive always thought the facts are far more interesting than anything. When i pick a subject lets use manson as an example. I wanted to write about the late 1960s in america which in terms of a chaotic time makes today look people when we are all living in unison. To write about that you need to someone or something from that area that will make the readers wantnt to pick up the book and open it. For better or worse there was a lot about the 1960s the culture of the time and of the e things people want to talk about, things people got obsessed with so iou wrote a bok thats really about the late 1960s. Everyone you name is represented in a certain year in america. What people were doing, thinking and believing at the time. Tell me if im wrong about this i find in your writing that you treat your subjects and topics with respect. Maybe respect isnt the right word. Thats what struck me. The worst thing you can do if you want to write a book about an aspect of history is to go into it thinking you already know everything you need to know about it and youve already formed opinions about everyone youre going to write about that are unshakable. People that take that approach or telling the readers what happened, dates and names. I think its important to try to learn how things happened and whyng they happened and what things earlier might have precipitated the events that bring about the twoyear state of crime. If you do that you may not agree with of the people that are the subjects of the book but you can at least demonstrate understanding of what made them become what they were and the readers not only get a better sense of them but a better sense of the time they lived in. If you can do that i think the book has succeeded. I almost felt sorry for bonnie because most of the two years she was in pain from riding around in a forward and undeveloped america. It was fascinating to me you were gripped by it and 5 oft was historically accurate. I wanted to know what they were really like and Bonnie Parker is a poor girl coming from a dreadful slum. Her dream is to be famous, a world famous actor. People didnt come looking for certain actresses where bonnie lived. Sheon was tiny and the brightest throughout her school years but in those school days it didnt matter how smart they were. She wanted things, she wanted attention. And for a poor kid when she got together with clyde into the newspapers needed something to write about besides the depression, heres the romeo and juliet pulling off their daring robberies and highspeed escapes. They didnt rob banks much because they were not sophisticated enough to do it. If we look at them from the aspect of poor kids when they have no other option in life when they are ambitious have to turn to something illegal, that doesnt forgive the crimes they committed. People died. Thats horrible but at least it lets us understand why to them it was the obvious and the only way out of the poverty stricken lives that they were going to be living otherwise. How did a movie and the methodology develop around the corral . Was it that big of a deal . Lets first state the obvious. It didnt happen in the okay corral. Buwhen western history became a thingg in america around the turn of the 20th century in the 1900s, masterson who we remember seeing on tv and who was a gambler and buffalo hunter turned journalist. One he picked was wyatt earp who had a checkered past at best and that fabulous shootout at the corral thats what we remember the guns drawn around all the horses and Everything Else. But what it meant was this was a timeme when the survivors were brought to trial for people dying out of their hands using guns. While they were acquitted the case got great coverage and sent a message out to the frontier before. This meant the restrictions of law had come backo t frontier and were to there to stay. Heres whats important about the trial. The gunfight itself at the okay corral was popular methodology that helped share the story to newspapers and formed the basis of a bunch of movies people still like watching to this day but it wasnt really what happened. How is it that wyatt earp became the wellknown over cavirgil who was the sheriff in tombstone . In his Law Enforcement days, he was one of the deputies that had to do all the work the sheriff didnt want to. His job was scraping dead animals up off the street on the sidewalks, but he was friends with a notorious doc holliday and even in his own times. He looked like this tall, striking, handsome young man who was greatly ambitious. He wanted to be famous and wellknown. After his name had become familiar to the readers across the country in the newspaper articlesh. For the shows that we remember today again the truth is so much more interesting about a multidimensional man who like all of usinab had his good poins and bad points. His only regret at the end of his life was he was about to get famous but hehi didnt make any money out of it. How did it become a town . It was one of those towns across the frontiers of america in that era where there were great mineralits discovered in tombstones case, silver. The apaches had been moved out or at least partially moved out and so the miners came in. The prospectors and when they found a place and they settled in and actuallyy began producing large quantities of minerals, that is when all the businessmen came roaring in. You needed restaurants, bars where they could drink, ladies ofed the evening so they could have a little companionship. And at the towns would spring up and die out within a few years in the Mineral Deposits were used up. Tombstone lasted a little longer than that and its still there but for a lot of people its their chance to go to where the old west still exists. This is exactly what it looked like and the simulated a shootout was exactly how it happened. People loved going to tombstone. What is it like today as a tourist attraction . I say this with respect for the people in the town who managed to survive and even thrive by making use of the things that happened there. For wild west history buffs it is the equivalent oft disneyla. You could go there and meet largerthanlife characters, you ecould have a couple thrill rids so to speak and feel like you are back there just like it was except theres nobody thats going to shoot you in the back. There is no drunken miner staggering around and theres no dead animals in the street. One of the things about the gunfight that struck me is that every western town that you charted and researched had gun laws. There were no handguns allowed in the city limits. Heres the wonderful thing about writing history and reading history. These were the great debates of the day. Government, how much of it did we need and how much of our lives should government stay out of. Immigration, we cant have these people crossing american borders and taking jobs away from real americans and gun control. This is my gun. If i want to wear it in town who are you to san and get the very people today that a sort of idolize the old west as they think we would stroll around downtown with shooters strapped to both sides, they had gun laws. They knew that a combination of liquor, macho tendencies people wanted to prove how tough they are. If you had guns, bad things are going to happen so they wouldnt allow the guns. The nra wouldnt last an hour in the world tombstone. The nra doesnt mention that in the popular literature and yet its a fact. These issues that were splitting america apart in the 1880s weve still got them and the reason we do ways we dont look back at history and see where all this began and that gives us the thread to decide now we have to stop and get some common sense gun laws, laws regarding immigration and we have to have a National Assessment how much is in our lives and we really dont have these debates. We have people lashing out screaming at each other. Hi so 100 years from now our grandchildren say can you believe they are talking about the same things now immigration, gun laws, if we are going to stop we have to go back to genesis this is what we have to do or else we are going to repeat this again. And the life and times of Charles Manson what was your goal without a book so much has been written about him and it didnt come out until 2013. Asked the right place at the right time if it committed the crime he was originally jailed for he was the most incompetent in the history of american prostitution. He was a smalltime car thief. Claiming to be a prophet and handing out drugs to kids who were looking for somebody to tell them what to do locals would have stuck him on a pitchfork and put him out in the field like a scarecrow. But just in the time in American Life where california was where everybody was looking for inspiration i was in college in austin texas and all i could think of why cant i be in San Francisco or los angeles where the culture is great, the music is wonderful, the philosophy is there. Manson gets out of prison and ends up in berkeley california, a hotbed of protest and then goes across the data San Francisco. These were places where young kids flocked. They were looking for those like the beatles had and i found people who knew manson at this time and they would describe they were to preach to the kids gathered around of them hoping they were going to hear some great wisdom. Charlie would call two or three things would seem to be very effective and then he would go to the free clinic where sick kids were just jammed in the lobby and he would preach to them getting his pattern down then he would go back to golden gate and proclaim himself as a prophet. It worked enough with some kids that they decided to charlie was some great profit maybe even some religious figure. He made sure they had all the drugs they wanted and pursued his dream of musical superstardom which didnt happen. Have you ever heard any tapes that he had at the time . I had a son who wanted to be a musician and others formed a garage band before the neighbors asked us to close it down or move. That was the level of sophistication that was never going to happen. But only in that place and at that time could he have gained the followers heated and talk to them into committing a couple horrific crimes that just at that moment caught the attention of the country. Theres a newspaper war in la buying on who would have the most lewd story about the murders today in the National Media hence the Charles Manson mythology with great powers. We remember him differently because of the times he lived in. Thats why i wrote the book. There is an image stuck in my head from 1969 to 1970 of Charlie Manson or susan atkins. Three women who were part of his gang and it stuck there in time. Its very dramatic. I spent a lot of time with patricia researching the book in corona california womens prison. They will never get out because no california governor wants to be the one to let the manson family out on the world. But they remember the whole trial. He writes that fabulous true crime book helterskelter that sold over 9 million copies in the years since. For charlie its what he dreamed of, the center of International Attention and every day before the trial opened and the media came in, charlie, his lawyers and the women who were on trial with him cd for sessions and he said im going to do this today and when i do it i want you to jump up and say this. He orchestrated every step of it. If he had gotten into selling vacuum cleaners instead of crime he might have been a multimillionaire but he had an image and he told them he was going to play crazy charlie, the nutcase until it became so obvious that he was too crazy to be incarcerated for the crimes that led him out. But they didnt see the crazy charlie they saw the calculating. It gives a whole different insight and again why write books about history that dont bring something new that gives a greater understanding. I didnt know much about Charlie Manson before i started. When i finished the book i sure didnt like him or admire him but you had to shake your head and to some of the talent this man had. He knew how to sell himself and he sold himself in blood. What was it like sitting across the table from lesley and patricia . You are not allowed to bring a pad and pen or recording device. They were not going to sit at the same table and talk at the same time. The popular pretty girl i high school, youv to remember shes 20 when all this happened and she still has the little girl gestures when shes talking to you she plays with her hair and giggles and reacheh out to pat your hand like the pretty flirtatiousou girl in hih school would do. Patricia at one point an old woman now who spends her days in prison training rescue dogs to be guide dogs for the blind she will not remind you as you see her of anybody dangerous and she is telling me about stabbing abigail on the lawn of the house on the night of the purest firstmurders and shes rememberg how it doesnt hurt your hand when you stab unless you hit bone and then your hand really hurts. And it went back to the motel d i was trying to transcribe as best i could. Its about three in the morning when i finished i tried to go to sleep and i couldnt. For months afterwards, my wife would wake me up in the middle of the night because i was screamingg having a nightmare about women with knives coming toward me. Its not easy sometimes hearing what people say. But you have to listen to what they are saying. If they are honest enough to come out and tell you these things, then you better not to go i dont want to hear it. You have to hear it and you have to write it in such a way that the reader is sitting right there with you hearing someone tell you this thing. You want the reader emotionally invested because that is when history counts. Thats when it matters when its not a high school textbook. What was the process like of getting into that prison and convincing these two women to speak with you . It was difficult. In some form they will occasionally talk to outsiders because they think if they talk about what they did and admit that they were guilty this would have waitar with the board. Once people feel like they are having a conversation, but somebody is listening, then they tell their stories a little differently. The trick is not to say to someone tell me about this god awful crime you committed. Does it keep you awake at night . People dont want confrontational questions. But if you can say can you help me understand how this happened, what brought you to this point . Everyone wants to explain, and there again is the challenge of the historian. Make people comfortable enough to try to help you understand their viewpoint. It doesnt mean readers. It doesnt forgive horrific crimes but we need to look beyond what happened to why and how. This is how the story really matters. Was your next book about jim jones andpe jonestown a natural follower to the manson book . Ive never really en categorized as the writer of a certain type of history. And i never wanted to be known as a cult writer because i dont think theres a generic type and forot manson and the manson famy there is the similarity and great differences but having written about the late 1960s, i wanted to learn more because again im 18, 19, 20 growing up now. How do we segue from the chaos of the late 60s into lets goag with Ronnie Reagan and the conservatism sweepingsm the country. What has to happen . So if i was going to write about the 70s, i figure there are only two things that would resonate with readers. One was watergate. And i felt theres nothing new i can bring to watergate. Whatever there is about that is there. Buts what happened in jonestown and guyana is the prime example in history is when they get a bunch of followers to do the bidding up to and including killing themselves and dont drink the koolaid is part of the lexicon. I thought could there be something in that and i started poking around and learned two things. First, it wasnt koolaid, it was a cheap knockoff and as many as a third of the people that died in jonestown didnt voluntarily t drink it. If jim jones had been hit by a car and killed in the late 50s, early 60s, he would be considered one of the leaders of the Early Civil Rights Movement in america. How could he have attracted such attention and this time in america, and why would he have driven overseas by bad press decide on this final fetal and historic way of demonstrating his disdain . I was writing a followup book about meone who unexpectedly achieved great infamy and looked like manson accomplished a great deal of good. How does that fit together . At the survivors of the peoples temple are in a way kind of like your extended family. They have squabbles, but up and till a few years ago they would all come together around labor day not just to comfort each other but to know that they were with other people who would understand. They were treated with such great disdain. Whats the matter, werent you thirsty that day . What kind of fool are you that you could follow someone like jim jones. The people that joined and followed jim jones didnt materially benefit from anything. When in church and i use quotation marks because it was meant as an institution to bring about social change, racial inequality, economic inequality, gender equality. They came to give rather than get and bit by bit they did something far worse. They dont think people understand what happened. I will say this ive written 25 books now. When i did the road to be corroded to jonestown i had about a dozen new lifelong friends former members of peoples temple that were some of the most intelligent culturally concerned people you could meet anywhere. Getting to write about them and the things that happened i learned so much writing the book. Good afternoon and welcome to booktvs monthly indepth program. This month we are at the tucson festival of books in arizona and our b guest is historian and Investigative Reporter jeff gwynn. We talked about several of the books and we will go through a couple more in a minute but we want to make sure you have a chance to get involved in the program as well. We will be taking your phone calls this afternoon along with Text Messagess and any social media comments that you would like to make. 202 is the area code, 7488200 for those in the east and central time zones, 7488201 if you live in the mountain and pacific time zones and if you want to send a text message please include your first name and your city if you would and sent to this number 202 7488903. We will also scroll through the social media site. Remember booktv is our handle. We will get to a couple of other books but i want to go from jonestown to your most recent book. February, 1993. What happened . David, formerly and the large sprawling house that they call mount carmel on a hill outside of waco texas and they pretty much keep to themselves and believe everywhere in the bible they believe that he is the lamb of the book of revelation and he and his followers are about to bring about the end of times from the book of revelation. Theyve come to the attention of alcohol, tobacco, firearms for being in Unlawful Possession of semi automatic weapons that have been converted to automatic weapons. Theres nothing illegal doing that in 1993 if you registered each weapon and paid a tax for doing so. They had not done that. Disgruntled former davidians had made claims that those that werefo left were quite likely to take the automatic weapons and to some other place and slaughter innocent people as a means of bringing about the end times of the bible. To confiscate illegal automatic weapons these obviously werebe dumb people if they believe this garbage that was from a fraud. They planned to make this a hugely successful raid coming up in march they wanted to film the whole thing and prove to senators and congressmen theysm were not bloodthirsty people trying to wipe out a bloodthirsy gunowners. They learned they were coming. They were awaiting. But there was a horrible three hour fire fight. Three died, for agents, 16 more were wounded almost a third of the agents making t raid. Long siege ensued with the fbi surrounding them. Negotiators thought they were emaking the progress. E. April 19th they decided they would put teargas gradually to smoke them out in a couple of days. Instead they filled the corners with great clouds of gas and all the Branch Davidians died except for the half that were adults and that became genesis and all the controversy afterwards that have led to a number of violent incidents as ever since. So theres not just the mount carmel story but the consequences. Is it fair to say that they started out as a pretty legitimate seven day adventist . They were started in the 1920s by victor who believed you had to live by the rules of the bible and that sometimes in the reasonably near future the end of days would come when christ would judge everyone and of the only people who would surviveou that judgment and go n to live in the kingdom of god would be the ones who strictly adhered to the scriptures. How to believe that they had gotten to worldly he had the followers split off because land was cheap there and on the last days to be able to gather together. They kept to themselves when they tried to recruit new tlmembers from the churches. A couple different profits followed victor after his death. One was a middleaged woman who took him as her disciple a young stammering bumbling young guy from houston and under her tutelage revealed himself as being informed by him and he was the testament they had to takeen the name because hes pronounced in hebrew. He was the lamb of the book of revelation. Toow the final epic fight in babylon it was not only coming soon its coming now and we are the ones to do it. They were biblical literalists and whatever else we talk about today this is what we must remember. They firmly believed the god they believed in had told them through his prophet what they must do even if the secular wall said no because it is the only true law. Whatever else we may think with all the things that happen they sincerely developed they believed they were doing the work of god. I really had to learn to accept it before i could start writing about the perspective of things. And if you read the book again it doesnt mean youre going to say they did what was right but at least you know why they did things and how. Charles manson, jim jones, david karesh not very good childhoods. No but its also true for children with much worse childhoods dont grow up to proclaim themselves profits and prophets andlead people to thei. Manson didnt want my book to come out when he found i traced his sister and cousin and would be able to write about his somewhat pampered childhood. Jim jones had in all the childhood but was always loved. Vernon wayne howell was born to a 14yearold girl and was raised with a lot of uncles and stepdads but never wanted for food or attention. We can understand when people have problems why they wouldnt understand but it was also inevitable that they became what they became. How many children of davids survived and why so many . Davids children, most of them died in the final fire. That was deliberate on his part. All told, he fathered 23 children by just about a dozen women. He said that the bible quoted that the lamb shall spread his seed. So the lamb of revelation cant be jesus because he didnt have children so vernon the lamb had to have children. Obviously he couldnt have those with just one wife and of the children of his were really old souls being born again and when the end times came, they would be the magistrates of the book of revelation to help rule over the new kingdom r of god. Three of his children were out by the time the atf operation took place. Two mothers had become disenchanted and left taking the children with him. During the siege itself he set out other children but never his children. He sent out the children of followers but he fully expected his followers has to be expected, they are going to have to die here. The little children could be sent out two or three at a time because they dont have any vital role coming but his children have to stay and the children burned to death on april 19, 1993. At this by the way points out one of the mistakes the fbi made. They never bothered to learn what they really believed. They called it bible babble and delusion and they wouldnt even talk about it because they said we were just buying into the delusion if they knew that. They did not know the Child Welfare workers in waco tried to tell them that he isnt sending his own children out. He is letting the kids out, he will send more. Hes not sending his children out that means he has a plan for a grand finale but the fbi didntn listen they just said kids are coming out. Maybe its working. Think of how horrible that is. You are followers and you are in there surrounded by tanks. You expect any minute youre going to be blown to smithereens. This means davids prophecies were correct. We are going to bewe translatedp to heaven and come back in the army of jesus. If the fbi knew that, you think maybe they wouldnt have finally decided after seven weeks okay were just going to go knock them down there they wont be able to stop this . Everybody misunderstood everybody else. Did you have good results talking to survivors and dissidents . They were asking if i was sent by the devil. These people, though survivors to this day believe david really was the lamb. Everything else he said was true. If the things that happened really are the beginning of the end times that will happen any minute. David is going to return just like he promised. They believe strongly that god approves of what they did. They were living for god and still are living for god. I talked to them. They were very open and helpful. I feel like we had pretty good relationships. Then the book came out. In it i print what they say but also the fact that how he stole all his prophecies and plagiarized them from an earlier in florida almost 100 years ago word for word and these are people thatt sustained themselvs by hanging onto this believe its what they built theirir lis around and here comes this outsider who said i respect you, but you followed someone who wasnt what he said he was. Its not like they are going to say thank you. They havent. Please check for yourself, dont take my word for it. They are not doing that. They dont think they have to because they know the truth into the truth is what david said, no matter what i think may have uncovered. We are talking with the historian and Investigative Reporter on booktv and now its your turn. We want to hear your voices as well. We will put the phone numbers up and hear from glenn who is calling from michigan. Good afternoon to you. About manson and the narrative with the capital and for example jesse small which was quite obvious and ridiculous. They accepted and promoted it. It served a bigger narrative about racism and homophobia and in the case of manson and his abusive childhood pretty much the entire world accepted the story that he was a victim of his family and society at large and all that. Why do you think that was . What if any larger narrative and this blind faith and fictionalized narrative . That kind of goes back to where we started our conversation about the methodology of american events. Youve got to remember that in 1968 and 1969 in america anything seemed possible that would have seemed impossible just a few years before. You had young people radically changing. The kids were going to grow up to be like their parents and you find people thinking its not only all right to be disrespectful, its necessary because we need to make things e better. Youve got music becoming the cultural touchstone instead of books and tv. For the first time, youve got National News thats broadcast pretty much on a 27 day but you can listen to walter cronkite. A man walks on the moon. The new york mets win a pennant. Richard nixon comes back from obscurity to become president of the United States. Theres riots in the streets. Civil rights trust there is everything going crazy. And people want something that they can see what they want to see. Charlie manson provided that. Nixon got into hot water because he said in a News Conference its obvious the man is guilty. Why is the news media glorifying him and of course that gave manson the chance to say the president said this. We need a mistrial. He didnt get that. Student rebels all thought that manson was great. Bernadette and some of those had their gesture like this. If you wanted to believe that manson was like che guevara you couldd believe that and if you wanted to believe that it wasnt only disgusting but dangerous, ahe could be that. If you wanted a great grizzly true crime history with sex, drugs and rock n roll, entertainment, you could have that. So, manson fit so well into that time when every headline anywhere was sensationalistic in some way that he served the nations need for something to believe in and all different categoriest of belief could see in them what they wanted. Thats the fascination of the 1960s in Charlie Manson that we were at a time and place where someone like him could mean so many things to so many people. Cornelius in alexandria virginia you are on with the author. Caller hello. God bless both of youou all. Now, jeff, having been africanamerican and you know the story of [inaudible] im sorry, you broke up there. Host can you keep your mouth close to the phone. Lo can you hear me now . Go ahead. Do you knowu the story of te lone ranger . [laughter] guest yes, i do. I grew up watching tonto when i was a little boy. Caller thats great. There is a guy that was an africanamerican marshal in the territories and that is what the ranger was based upon. I saw a museum show about that and they had claytons granddaughter or daughter on their talking about that. He had an indian companion and he worked for the judge in the oklahoma territory but he was an escaped slave and everything after the civil war and he headed toward oklahoma. Host lets get a comment from jeff. Thanks. Guest he makes an excellent point and that is another reason why studying history, researching and writing about it is important. And particularly minority americans and some mystery misrepresented through history. Theres a feeling right now if you are a wide historian youop cant properly understand and write about minority figures in history. I hope that the changes. We will all understand each other better. He is an amazing character, and id like to say to everybody out there thats interested in wild west history, look this man up. You will be fascinated by his life and times. Host and there isfe the connection to the lone ranger. Guest very much so. Host lets move on to carl in chicago. Please go ahead with your question or comment. Caller a comment and a question. I actually met the jonestown lawyers sometime after the incident because they were flying from new york city. My question is why do humans have such a fascination with cults . Guest i think the word cults is misused. We tend now we are in a habit that started with manson through jim jones through the davidians. Anytime theres a group that separates itself and they have some religious belief that its not mainstream, its easier to know they are probably not a verybright and they are followig some fraud. Thats not the case at all, but because the methodology is so strong a lot of the media picks up on it and puts it out there and that just intensifies the feeling. The manson family had nothing in common with peoples temple and nothing in common with of the Branch Davidians. Cults is widely misused and i think thats the reason people make assumptions about what it must be. Host jim jones sons survived today, correct . Guest a couple of them, yes. Host do they talk to you . Guest jim jones junior im proud to say is one of my best friends in this world. He calls himself the first black child adopted by a white family in indiana. Jim jones and his wife wanted to develop a Rainbow Family that is their preaching equality of the races, lets adopt the children of different races so we can show that everyone can live together in harmony. And jim and steven, who is the only blood the child of jim and martha lynn jones are still alive. Ive met both of them. Im certainly closer to jenny than steven who is very reluctant to speak to outsiders. We are talking about good intelligent people whove become the kind of american citizens we all aspire to be involved in their communities, have loving families. They manage they have rough times and they get through it. Again, with cults, we think anybody that is involved, what must they be, they must be morons. Absolutely not the case. In any of these groups you usually have highly intelligent people whove been looking for likeminded others that they can feel comfortable with. And jimmy and steven have very well adapted now to the world as it is, but they were there when their father was faking miracle healing cures. They saw him during his drug usage and they understood what a flawed person he was. But they also saw that the peoples temple itself, the causes were very just that they were working towards. They say, and its true as jim jones deteriorated into the drug addiction and paranoia people stayed in peoples temple not because they thought that he was a god or a great man, but because they thought the goal of the temple is what counted. We will do this in spite of him instead of under his leadership. I would say to anybody that meant then you would like them and learn a lot from them. Ive learned a great deal from the cold members because of it. Host is it a fluke that both jim junior and steve are alive today . Guest yes. Jim and steven were a part of the jonestown Basketball Team that had been allowed to leave jonestown, which by the way is buried in the middle of the jungle to get in there to take a look i had to charter a plane and use machetes into the jungle to find where this had happened. Their government tolerated jonestown but were not necessarily enthralled with jim jones himself. The idea that jonestown would have a Basketball Team that could go into georgetown and east capitol and play exhibition games against the guy on the team, maybe that would help. So, jenny and steve and amanda someim of the other young men fm jonestown were in georgetown when the big moment came a congressman and a couple of members of the media were killed. Jim jones gathered everyone together to die as a political gesture and he called the office they had in georgetown and jimmy took the call. His father u used code words. Kill your self. And jimmy and steven thought no, we are not doing that. Do it. And there were some followers who were there in the building who still believed in jim jones. One woman took a knife and killed herself and her children. Jenny and steven thinking may be before he has everybody die in jonestown he will do one of his for our sermons. Went racing to the American Embassy to see, can we get a helicopter, can we get a small plane . If we can get there we can stop this. We will stand right next to them and say you cant do this. The embassy was closed for the night. No one would talk to them because they thought they are a bunch of weird americans doing questionable things. The next morning, the surviving Basketball Team members in georgetown were arrested by the police and were held on suspicion of murder. It took a long time to get out of there but it was by sheer luck that they lived through that and i think that it was a great good fortune and contributing citizens. Host government response to both jonestown and waco didnt save lives. Guest no, it didnt. Though there are different circumstances in both cases. Jim jones had gone to jonestown after his reputation in america had been destroyed by somebe investigative reporting that indicated a lot of negative things about his Ministry People that hadnt been known before. But he was still considered by the government to be legitimate. There was going to be a congressional investigation becausenv relatives of some of s followers and peoples temple complained family members were being held against their will. Whether they were or not is questionable. But when the government pressure came, when a congressman simply chose to show up pretty much an essay im coming in, im going to inspect, maybe two dozen of the people in jonestown really wanted to leave and jones said fine everybodys free to go. There still would have been over 900 people there. But jones was a drug addict paranoid and he believed if we let one come in and take a couple dozen people, and another one will be here next week. He will take more people. And soon everybody is going to be gone. Thats why he decided weve got to kill the congressman, and we are alle going to die here as a gestureto and of course host to remind everybody congresswoman jackie spear who just retired from congress was mccarthys assistant and was shot when she was down there in 1970. Guest now the Branch Davidians, one thing i have to remind people of is that theres three groups involved in what happened. We have the atf, the fbi and Branch Davidians that ended horribly and it didnt and the way that it had a two but for the atf and fbi the best result would have been a clean operation, not a shot fired, nobody dies. We come out looking great. Only the Branch Davidian agenda required people to die. And that is a fact and we shouldnt forget it. Host mike, detroit. Please go ahead with your question or comment for the guest. Caller its really good to listen. And you know i lived in arizona and i lived in missouri and one thing that struck me about the situation in tombstone, was the civil war brought west lacks the conflict there you have the former union soldiers, you had the texans and i think even your father was an abolitionist. It just seems like the war never ended from the border states to 20 years later until may be that a generation just kind of died out, you know . The majority of people coming was to make their fortunes are former citizens of the confederacy who want to get away from the union. Soay now suddenly in the southwt and arizona to particularly you got people moving and who are trying to get away from any government control. The government shouldnt tell us what to doot and we came here to avoid that. Then you get people like the herbs particularly morgan who identified with the union with law and order saying know we have got to have more laws about your cattle herds in reaching get your cattle and where you can carry them where you cant and taxes were big issue too. If im a former confederate soldier who lost an arm and im come to arizona to tombstone to make a new life i dont want some who is fighting on the other side that day to be the sheriff and tell me some of my cattle look suspicious and they might be rustled and im going to take your whole herd to make sure so this tension of the civil war exacerbated it and brought that conflict into a different area of america where the tensions would rise. Sectional rivalry is important and regional rivalry. Gary sent a text to you jeff nguyen what is your favorite cinematic rtvi that tatian of the wyatt earp doc holiday story . I know i should Say Something deep about this but do you know what i loved was the star trek where kirk and spock and some of the crew end up back in tombstone. I think they are quite a few movies and tv shows that have been Great Entertainment that may hit sacrifice by hit sacrifice the historic fact and im still hoping someday somebody will say lets make a movie. Lets make it realistic. In the meantime may the force be with you for asking the question gary. Annex golf comes from ames, iowa and this is nancy. Please go ahead with your question or comment. My comment is something how history touches ourur lives. Just by absolute chance i was having lunch at the lbj ranch with Lady Bird Johnson and the group from the wildflower center. I was a Magazine Editor and we were doing a story and quietly during that lunch and woman came in bend down over mrs. Johnson and i was sitting next to her and told her what had happened at waco. Its an billable memory in my mind obviously and mrs. Johnsons composure something i will never forget. She said thank you very much and she went on with her obligation with what we had that i could see in her face and her body language her distress. And on the point of being just another point that happens to be the selma march anniversary and again how history can touch ones life to my husband and i were married inin washington d. C. And the most wonderful man. Those are my comments and im enjoying this wonderful historian who we all need to love them and to cheer cement to promote them in any way we can. Thank you. Nancy you dropped a couple of names at some historical event. Can you tell us about yourself . Yes, i can. I was a Magazine Editor. I founded the magazine for the Hearst Corporation in 1987 that my background before that was i have a masters degree in American History which i love. Ive been a fanatical observer. I was alson an editor at amerin heritage for short period of time andof was a colleague of te wonderful david mccullough. We worked together on a book on world war ii. Those are some things about me. Are you associated with Iowa State University . My husband is retired however he still associated with the university because he has been involved with the foundation that maintains the beautiful land they have there but he had a 30year career at iowa state and we are both now retired. And giving our paper. Thank you maam. Jeff guinn any comments for nancy and ames . I think its wonderful to get people to only care about history to bat to be an active part of it. Good for her and thank you for sharing your story about Lady Bird Johnson. Lady bird had been in charge in waco we would have never had the tragedy. You and i were talking about the george w. Bush library and theg lbj library in austin hada time in the sold told the sad story of the nancys and other market to her. People asked when did you get interested in history and one important moments when i was a sophomore at the university of texas in austin they began building the lbj library on campus and Lyndon Johnson retired to his ranch in the hill country and came to campus by helicopter with his sister Doris Kearns Goodwin and family and friends and he would take them on tours. Johnson would allow some of us college students, maybe three or four at a time to join his group and over a dozen times i was able to follow Landon Johnson the ground the museum and hear him talking about this event or that event and what he said to Martin Luther king at this moment how he called George Wallace at one point in his presidency and said, i know you think your comment referring to or are like this but i have bowling. And hearing the stories and seeing that there is some great historic figure who is real made me want to know more and essentially thats what i dedicated a lot of my career to so thank you very much Lyndon Johnson and every time i see a Bowling Baller i always think of you sir. I hope that story goes viral at some point. This is a text message from gf in coloradote springs. Jeff im a for horses and gunsmoke. I like westerns and im puzzled byor the fact that none of your books which i have read contain any footnotes, sources bibliographies were documentation and can you help me understand that . Be if you think that you have read my chapter notes. Im careful to list everything and id urge you to go back and look again. The next golferpe jeff quinn is fromom rick in providence kentucky. Rick please go ahead. You are on tv. Thank you very much for taking my call. My question is about waco at the end of the operation when i guess the final assault i guess would be called, happened. Did attorney general reno and president quentin both had to sign off on that or was that a decision clearly made from a local level . Thank you very much. Thanks for asking the question because an interesting story attaches to. Ac janet reno approved by the senate and the middle of the waco standoff and the fbi takes over, the fbi brought to her a written plan to end the siege. Their idea was theyy would serve at gas gradually over two days into mount carmel and everyone inside their eyes have become irritated and they would get fed up with that then they would come out. Reno approved this plan only after she was assured that the amount of gas would not be dangerous particularly to the children still inside the compound. She called them experts from the army to go over the plan or she finally said yes, i think this is what he can do and she did take that plan to president quentin who also approved it. What is a fact is that she believed the gas insertion was going to take place gradually over two days because the gas itself is not dangerous or combustible except in great quantities but what happened on april 19 starting at 6 00 a. M. Is almost immediately the fbi fired in all of the gas canisters. It was supposed to last two days instead ofs. Left at three to fr hours and great floating clouds of the gas permeated the hallways or the fbi had cut off the electricity into the building. It was a cold rainy spring in waco. For warmth of Branch Davidians had coleman lanterns that were lit with fuel o. The clouds theelves in this amount were almost bound to explode into flames if it was initiated. To this day theres the question of the fbi deliberately set the fire or was it hit an accident when a coleman lantern got knocked over into the Branch Davidians decide to commit group suicide . They would have called for the translation of the heaven. Afterwards reynaud felt betrayed and she said on the record to congress and the media that she was lied to. The fact remains that was done and so we can say reno and quentin approved the plan and they did but not that plan. As you can see its a gray area. Your 2019 book the vagabonds how much of it was true that thomas edison, henry ford and Harvey Firestone all went camping together . This is one of my favorite oaks ive ever written because it was so much fun. Now before the vagabonds as they call themselves, their camping trip started and they would take their cars and a procession of trucks hauling food tents and other comforts and they would simply go out on the road for a weeks long trip. The purpose of it in some was recreation but it was also cannin marketing. When the first model ts were introduced to the country and all of a sudden your family can afford a car, people generally thought of cars as transportation to and from work. Ford wanted the nation to understand that the car was freedom. There was no reason not to go out on the family car trip and over that 12 year period because they were the most famous men i america and the media covered every day of all their trips, we switch from a horse and buggy or roadworkgy culture to a car culture. When they started their trips theres about 800,000 cars in america. By the time they finish there are millions of cars and well over half of them are model ts. Edison and ford were great pals. They really loved going out together and roughing it. Their idea of roughing it meant the service would cook a nice meal and wash and iron their clothing while they were asleep in their tentswe so that they could have fresh clothing the next day. If any of you get a chance to go to the ford museum in michigan, please do so. They have got the tents and the cars of the vagabonds used and in its a wonderful story. It shows america changing and that theres no blood and guts involved and i enjoyed riding about it. Its a wonderful story and i hope our people get to learn about it. This was in her early 20s and they sold tires and build cars and lightbulbs and one out. How big was the entourage that they took with them . They might have eight or nine cars and their entourage. Youve got to remember theres no highways there. This is a time in American History when you were in a little west va hamlet and there was a road twisting through town. You might hear the rumble ofin r engines and youd run to the roadside and by that is henry ford. That is thomas edison. Getting out the car and going to your aunt ednas cafe. This brought important people out to where thats never happened before. Ford and edison were the coronations of their time. Maybere we have is that wonderful we are getting to see someonewo special . But it depends on your outlook. The vagabonds about riding that book and it was the only book ive ever written but im trying to relax and i go back and look through some of that to remember the red trips. You follow that book up with war on the border about poncho via and the hunt. How much of that hunt for poncho via was made . Actually the greatest myth that made me write that book is light at the baywatch political campaigns. Im an historian but also unamerican and i heard a specifici candidate in the runp to the 2016 elections saying im going to build a wall on the border to keep up all the we dont want from crossing and mexico is going f to pay for it and its going to be wonderful. And i thought to myself, well dont you think if the law would work somebody may have thought of that before . Maybe i ought to research border history and write a book about it. And lo and behold there were plans to build an impenetrable wild across the border between the United States and mexico. 1904, 19 away, 1912, 1914, 1917, every time there was great fanfare for building the wall and there still is no wall because you couldnt maintain it in any of thee wild areas and people who are determined to climb over at or under it or break for it. Never worked in the past. How can a candidate say that . I guess he never studied the history. I thought it might be helpful to write a book that had a history and maybe they might like to see them save themselves some frustration. Along the way ive got to write for the first time in learned about the pershing pursuit of by and the raid into america by by and his bandits. I never heard about any of this stuff. Thats why love researching history. It will surprise you with real stories that are so much better than the myth and for god sakes its a little History History 1916 we would not have all this time and moneyey talking about building the wonderful wall. It didnt work then and it doesntng. Work now and it will never work. In your view jeff guinn was poncho via the threat that took the u. S. Army moving down to texas from that . Americans have always believed that no matter what else may happen around the world that our borders are secure. Theo wanted to incite american Troop Movement across the border into mexico. He had basically been out general by a civilian named castanzozo and he felt the only thing he could do was make the people rise up and the americans are coming back. Mexico was out for a land grab they took so much of their territory. Carranza was seen as the government endorsed by america. By spotify attack and kill some Americans Still had to come after me into mexnd can say see you are coming a after e in they are trying to take more of our country. Our country. First he killed a bunch of American Engineers and mexico. A lot of the territories in the northern states was held by americans. When the government didnt cross the border and show the americans they can die in their country so he crossed the border into columbus killed some people and thes, American Government hd to do something and they sent pershing and his mission and to find by. Did world war i stop at mission . World war i stop at mission. Because of what happened in mexico. Ca america was prepared for entry into world war i. This i is whats wonderful about history. Pershing goes chasing after by in mic but hes given quite a few constraints by the American Government. Whatever you do dont get into an allout fight with the so he gradually finds himself trapped by the army in northeast northeast mexico got his chips with them. They cant move in any direction and pershing was a brilliant soldier realizes the American Army is prepared to go into battle not just with mexico. If it were ever brought into the war overseas of these uses this time to train troops and to drill them. They have never have this kind of thing tr before. When america entered world war ii months later pershing becomes the commander over there. But its his troops that he brought to mexico were where the only battle ready troops we had soer america can could immediaty get in on the fighting. Without pershing and without the punitive expedition america woulddi have had to hold that entering the war for months longer and who knows how that might have changed. 202 sierra cut as we consider our conversation with author and historian jeff guinn. 7488201 for those of you in the mountain pacific and if you can get on the phone and you want to make a comment you can try social media and you can text a question or comment 202 7488903 those are for Text Messages only. Please include your first name in your city if you would. Lets hear from gary who is in sioux falls, south dakota. Hi gary. Hi. Thank you mr. Quinn for having the historical facts. Im also a history major in the vietnam era veteran and i was curious and 68 you are talking about the turmoil and we know Martin Luther king jr. Were killed. What were you doing aboutute tht time about the same age . Im about to turn 72. I was in college. The 1968 president ial campaign lends itself to the increasing paranoia and anguish in america. I was a student in texas following Lyndon Johnson around to his library and i feltar guiy because i developed an admiration for Eugene Mccarthy who in the sense forced johnson not of office. I told lbj wasnt allowed to follow along on any of his library tours. Like you i was interested. Oliver Wendell Holmes said you need to share in the actions of the passions of your time and a lot of us didsh that. People like you are the people i write my looks for an eye thank you very much for being interested. Dorian st. Louis good afternoon to you. Are you still there . Terry terry we are listening, please go ahead. Are you still there . We welcome back to calls in just a second. This is to get them straightened out. We welcome back to those calls in just a second. One of the things weec always do with our authors here at booktv on in depth as we ask them what they are reading and here is what jeff guinn told us he was currently reading and its a riff action since world war ii trilogy the day of battle the at last light which atkso has set in that seat andalk to in debout his work. Whyve have you picked that up . Every time i read a book like waco my book by book that has just come out and spend maybe three years feeling scared that there are so many moving parts that there are so many people to include in the story. I might separate when i start riding the book i think ill never be able to doam it. Then i realized there are so many stories and i like to look at their words and be comforted by the fact that it can be done. I dont flatter myself that my work is equal to his when i finish waco i wanted to refresh myself just now seeing how a real pro could do. You could write about such complex issues in so many moving parts and not only did that make it accurate but it made you want to keep turning the pages. And hes got such a wonderful boys and a wonderful rhythm. I read his book just to feel good about the possibilities of riding history. Its a 30th anniversary of the waco incident in april 1993 in your book just came out. This is about the most contemporary history youve ever written. So far. Why do you choose to write about waco . There were some Supreme Court decisions 54 votes during a pandemic. To make a church is one in los angeles and one in new york sued the government of those states who had put a limit of 75 people in gatherings because of the pandemic and it wouldnt be safe but according to the church it violated their freedom of religious expression. They wanted everybody together in the same group in the Supreme Court down 54 in their favor to know some people at Justice Department their reaction was to throw up their hands and say oh no. Any religious groups who wants to say this is what we believe in and a half in and you to let us do it because tire is equal precedent and i thought to myself already like to know more. Where inke American History have we had a conflict between people and their religious beliefs superceded the law . Waco seems like a possibility. I read books about waco they were out there and i never want to write a book that will and there were some that i thought were quite good especially rebbetzins book about waco but i feel there were things that were never answered. There is no mention at all of the atf or what would make the atf get involved . It was like david koresh and the Branch Davidians became fullgrown and waco. How did they come there and i thought this was a story worth learning. You to believe that if you spend two or three years of your life doing nothing but working on it. 24 7 im researching riding a book and thats what i do. That was what got me curious. Could the branchot davidians if they were put on trial after all these events and waco say our religious belief was to be attacked by the babylonian. Fight them to the death and we are sincere in that. Could they cite a 54 Supreme Court decision in the matter for churches saying religious freedom outweighs Public Safety . Theres a legal precedent now and you know they could find some lawyer who would arguesi i. Its something to think about. One of my next books may do you want to say more about that next books . I want to write books that bring the readers and to the present. When im done people can read my book the last gunfight about the final settling in how america changed all the way to the present day. The legacy of rage in the subtitle examines how waco and the offense there were used by militia and antigovernment protesters. Im thinking maybe it time to take a look at some of those militias and how they turned out to be what they are proving themselves onel january 6, 2021 and maybe even someone in the media would say alex jones who has made quite the career of encouraging Conspiracy Theory argument. Maybe these folks deserve for good close look at them and themselves. We will have two say but im thinking about it. Michael, Broward County florida, please go ahead with your question or comment for jeff guinn. Yes i wondered if he thought of the msv mergers in florida. Was like a lot of what youre talking it with contemporary and religious and freedoms. Inn florida there is no vaccination requirement. If you want to get out the any vaccination you to sign a form and it does affect things. The msv in particular. It gets into issues of health guilty as the Community Versus the person . The community was outraged that he was not put to because of his childhood but he mentioned his childhood and i wonder if youve heard something called adverse childhood experiences. We know from this large study we have done with large groups of people our brains are like plastic and what happens in our childhood changes it. And success changes the brain and almost identical ways. We are familiar with ptsd. Out to you what stop there. We are going to stop it there and see if jeff guinn has anything he wants to add. I think you are right about the florida station being interesting. My big frustration is im not going to live on the net to write all the books that i want to write and again i would encourage people if you love history and if you are interested in it theres no trick to trying to write books. You just had to tell a story that wasnt just people that they will engage more in. Maybe ill get into florida and i dont know. Know. If her wealth to fight on to help somebody else goes in there. A text message Green Bay Wisconsin founded a fascinating discussion, thank you. My question is regarding the did either of the two women youi spoke with leslie krenwinkel were express any i spend enough time with them that i felt we were getting past the general comments hoping the parole board will see them. They both say that they take personal responsibility for what they did and they say that they did it. Leslie van houten believes that she has seen mass murderers who did far worse things get paroled and not a person while she stays there and she makes the argument that she never killed anybody like the others. She does desecrated the corpse. She feels for this this this reason if no other she deserved to be pardoned. The parole board or at least the california governor has not agreed to this point but she says a shes sorry and i think e is but i also think she thinks she sees herself as the victim, but there is injustice that is then placed on her. Patricia kerr winkle has told me in tears that she did things and her excuse is that she was scared of him and she was scared of doing things. She added i know thats no excuse and she, i believe does not see herself as the victim but as somebody whos been punished deservedly for something. I hope that helps answer your question. I apologize for the past that isnt fascination about this but what was the first letter you wrote and why did they allow you personally to talk . One of the bandages of having written a lot of books is one of contacting someone saying i want to talk to you and im interested in facts and not mythology and whatever you tell me is what im going to to write an appropriate and may not say its true and i may not agree with it. Your perspective, ikenson them copies of your previous book so they can see the kind of rider i am. But i can make a difference so i always try to send a certified letter particularly with manson there were people involved that were trying to keep the idea that they had anything to do with them sacred. I explained i would like to set up some bugs and if after reading them they are willing to consider talking to me and can we please have a conversation. Thats what i always do and im pretty good at tracking people down. In a couple of cases people have not wanted to talk. They have their lives trying not to. I had to respect that. They have no legal obligation to talk to me and in particular some of the younger manson women now have children and grandchildren and you have no idea that they were part of the manson family and trying to hide it. What am i going to do room at fordham . No, i can tell the big story so i do. Is your book manson about in the present work occur when quentin van houten are . I was they have allowed to send them copies of the book. I wish they could read it and i dont think theyd like everything in it but i believe they would think the fuller story has finally been told. Text message my name this doctor for Nita Mitchell in New Brunswick new jersey big thank of for your awesome body work and my question is when and whatio tells you to become a historian. A couple of things. It started down the path when i was 13 and wrote a book called travels with charlie by John Steinbeck and are the book and im thinking okay this guy who i only know because teachers say to read theea and the red pony he got to get in the car and drive all over the country talk to interesting people, write about it and he got paid for it. I want a piece of that when i growt. Up. Then when i was in college following Lyndon Johnson on his tours around library listening to the way he told the story is that it was so much superior to the biographies written about it in the autobiography that he had written. They were all different normal and i kept thinking there better ways to tell all of this. I became a journalist and then i was an investigative journalist with a learned how to dig in and look at things and i got very lucky. I was one of the few fortunate enough when i wrote books about history, it fascinated me. Another copy so when i could give up my day job to do it so big shout out to John Steinbeck Lyndon Johnson and charlie the pool wherever you may be. You were an inspiration. We have the upper super on in depth and what their favorite books are. Jeff guinn travels with charlie by John Steinbeck is one of his favorites along with from olympus and the once and future king. Could you speak to those two books as well . Cabin catherine i did not want to read the book when i was in high school because it was but the high school i attended was oliver Wendell Holmes high school so we all had to read the book. I was mesmerized. It was Catherine Drinker Bowen in that book that i realized riding history didnt have the. It wasnt just the facts and names. She created such context starting the story with his grandfather a minister and his father a famous poet and how everythingnd he learned fit into his time and place and how the decisions he helped on the Supreme Court that changed America Forever were just based on law. Personal experience. If you can write a book like that and not make it dry iat thought gosh it must be possible to write history thats factual and tell important stories of the people dont know that people can enjoy reading. Thats an inspiration. His first ph fight the once future king i think anyone who has read it knows that the legend presented by a great historian storyteller. He could take the story that we all think we know about the sword in the stone and Everything Else and he could make it seem to apply. He wrote it during the outbreak of world war ii and he was very much a pacifist who wanted to write a book that made people think about certain philosophies particularly this. So i loved the book for its storytelling and i loved the book for thehet way he could put fresh light on something. Those are the people whoho inspired me and still inspire me. I read those books handinhand. Ii always find something new. Only 15 minutes with her guest jeff guinn. Donald was on the ohio. Please go ahead donald. We are listing. We are in norwalk and im in a nursing home called the twilight gardens. Im about 90 years old. I was with my beautiful wife in waco and the entire summer at the enclosure down there and i cant remember, it was the elderly couple before koresh. We went to seven at Venice High School psychologist and they were going out at the country of their private ministry studying all the kind about the Southern Baptist church. We went to waco and the summer there and we disagreed with a number of things they did including passover [inaudible] pent a summer with te guys and saw that there was corruption. The secondary man was having an affair with a 60 no girl. There was 16 year old girl. We knew waco without the place for us. Afterward, might daughter going to grade school at david koresh center in dallas, so she knew who he was. We had all this background and we knew the history and went into the people we were with. Peter thank you for sharing your story. Lets hear from jeff guinn. Jeff thank you for sharing your story. In school, because he did not become koresh until after he left school. Other than that, there were some things that would seem to outsiders unsavory about carmel, but the Branch Davidians believed they were doing what the bible said was allowed. They chose secular law. Peter it sounded like donald was referring to the rhoden family. Tell us about them. Jeff they were seventhday adventists who believed they had been called by god to succeed victor. He said gods message was they needed to follow jewish ceremonies rather than christian ceremonies, which are pagan. That is why they celebrated passover and not christmas or easter. Lois, after her husband died, said the angel had come to her and revealed that god thinks women are every bit as good as men. For that, she was acknowledged as leader. She also acquired that statement from an earlier koresh team in florida. David koresh stole from team and lois roden was doing it. Peter the Branch Davidians were somewhat interactive with the town of waco. Is that a fair statement . Jeff a lot of the Branch Davidians had the jobs in town. Koresh had one legal wife who was a cashier. Koresh himself liked to go to chelsea street pub at night and sing his song which no record producer in l. A. Her wanted to acquire. When the media came in immediately following the events with the atf operations, they wanted stories. They would fan out into waco to ask people if they knew any of the Branch Davidians and if they had done disgusting things. All they were ever told is they are strange but keep to themselves. They could not find people who could complain about the davidians. These many years later, there are people who say i was there the whole time and always suspected they were terrible, but nobody was saying that at the time. Peter chuck, california. Jeff the writing you do type of writing you do, have you ever thought about the christian scientists and what they have done to the thinking of americans . Jeff i have you think that is not a thriving and over that about getting into. Maybe another writer. Peter john, billings, montana, please go ahead. Caller have you ever thought about writing anything about the Zodiac Killer . They have been saying for years and is a woman to find him when he is actually doing a life sentence in fontana in montana. Jeff i do not feel the Zodiac Killer has the historic tobacco across our culture that other subjects might, so i did not think i will be doing that one. Peter we only have a few minutes left, but one of the subtitles of the last gunfight book is how it changed the american west. What do you mean when you say that . Me the event itself was in the gunfight it was simply the Police Stopped to take a couple of weapons of and it ner happened to be the o. K. Corral. I or rest a couple blocks from the o. K. Corral was this catchy title. In and of itself the event is negligible. Its still built builtin mythology but in real history this was the times. Laws were very elastic in the frontier and if you you got an issue down to get someone you could usually get off by saying well i thought he was going to shoot me so i got them first. When the earps and doc holliday were brought to trial for the killing that took place in tucson that was a signal that in the west courtroom law was going to be the operating and decisive factor. Since going to be the law of the streets. Thats why we need to look at it and understand it because its a turning point in American History. The other stuff is entertaining but its also mythology. Steven kensington ohio text message does jeff guinn consider himself something of a myth oster and as he seen a myth developing in America Today . An lot of belief in history was based on convenience than factfinding. I dontth want to call myself a myth buster because somebody take comfort in it. I do not believe an alternative facts it if i write a book im going to let you know in my chapter where i got every bit of information and im not going to tell you what you have the belief because of that information. I just want you to know it and then you can make your own decision. Stephen topeka kansas, steve please go ahead we are listening. Hello mr. Gwen. Im fascinated by your talk in the after the show im going to go out and get one of your books. Two points first of all a question ended matteroffact i was in the town of tombstone and they made a movie of tombstone. To me there are parts of it that are very real and a history of so many characters. The names are real. So firstly what did you think of the movie and its firstperson. My grandfather quit school before he graduated and i think he was about 16 years old when he headed west from ohio. He went to kansas and worked in a wheat field for the month of december and in the fall he went to work at the railroad. At that time dubreau brode was going to the royal at that time the row of road was through the royal courts. If youve been there its quite a place in the 1918, 1916 he turned 18bo years old and he sad i think he chases chases ponch at the end to mexico and after that he enlisted in the mattel area and into going to france. All right steve we are going to drop it there we are running short on time. We started in tombstone and we ended in france. What weekly you like to comment on jeff guinn . Hes like a lot of americans. He part of history for so long that its wonderful he knows that and that makes it more fun toit learn about how these Different Things evolved away from point a to b. , c. And d. He comes from a family fissures have been there. With steeper minds never to things that texas cattle drive that you write about in the term Texas Rangers which did not have the same connotation along with cowboys that it does today. I will say this in the history of different organizations. Doug in jacksonn mississippi we have one minute left. Please gote ahead. Doug . Dataset. We are going to end that to end it there and unfortunately we didnt hear from doug for you and i were talking about book festivals before the show starting and you are mentioning tucson where we are now in the mississippi book festival which is held every august. What he do lot of different festivals book festivals its inevitable you will develop some favorites but i cant tell you if ill be invited to the tucson book festival. Its wonderful in the crowds are friendly and the best organized festival. I could be here for a week and look forward to every day. The mississippi book festival shows every sign of becoming one of the great ones. Its well organized event takes place at the state state capiton the grounds of the state capitol. Is a beautiful setting and hope everybody gets a chance to go there. It would be worth your while. For the past two hours weve been talking with author Investigative Reporter jeff guinn. Here is his most recent book but its called waco, david koresh and the Branch Davidians and the legacy. Mr. Gwen we appreciate your time. Thank you for all the great questions. I appreciate it. Thank you audience as well. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was one of the times i got charged by a savannah elephant. There was a time in northern kenya when a very eminent biologist and i took a walk in an area where apparently we shouldnt have been walking. We should have been in a land rover and it was the savannah area and ran into a few not all that with and shes trumpeted and charged. A great blast of anger with her trunk and i dont know if they blasted their trunks are their come to think of it. Anyway she charts a way of a charging elephant in this Great Elephant researchers and we both take off running as fast as we can do to the hardpacked desert scrub and after 20 steps he turns and sticks out his arm and yells at the charging elephant to bluff her to stop because shes doing a bluff charge and this has worked for him in the past. It did work that day. She kept charging and now he turns around and hes running after me but now i have 20 steps on start. I run around a big bush and stop in the grass and he comes running around a big bush and the elephant comes running around a big bush catches him with her trunk as these threequarters of the way around lifts him up through us into the air and i hear his voice in what seems like a calm declared it sound saying help. He lands in the grass and she steps forward and with their tusks goes like that and jam them at him. Thats the scariest thing ive ever experienced because im standing 50 feet away. I just got Ian Douglas Hamilton eviscerated and i got this Great Elephant killed and elephant elephant killed and its on me but she backs off and i come running up and i look at him and hes on the ground. We both start going like this to see if he has been eviscerated. Theres not a scratch on them at his watch is gone his glasses are gone and if he stands up there these two test calls in a hard desert clay right where he was that were driven in six or 7 inches in the said david chu still there. She hadnt left. We got them on a. And we got out at their aunt said lets go back and have a cuppa tea at camp. Please welcome richard reinsch,