Transcripts For CSPAN2 After 20240703 : vimarsana.com

Every saturday American History tv documents americas stories, and on sundays booktv bngs you the latest and nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan2 come from these Television Companies and more including sparklight. The greatest town on earth is the place you call home. At sparklight its our home, too, and right now we are all facing the greatest challenge. Thats why sparklight is working around the clock to keep you connected. We are doing our part of switzerland easier to do yours. Sparklight, with his Television Companies, supports cspan2 as a Public Service. Host its a wonderful to be here talking with you today about your book. I wanted to per se what an extraordinary achievement. This book is the most authoritative history that i personally have read of the School Choice movement. It is so thoroughly researched. It is really, it really feels encyclopedic to me almost, lie his everything would ever need to know. I wanted to first ask, im obviously very thinly with your incredible work as an education reporter, and in l a lot of education reporters have the sort of crystallizing moments in reportingas where we are in a classroom or with a family and we have an aha moment. Im curious to know if you have one of those moments that led you to start writing this book . Guest thats a good question. I think, i think i started thinking about School Choice movement when ii was reporting about segregation in florida, and as part of that reporting our team interviewed just dozens of families that werery essentially trying to escape the segregated sort of lowperforming schools in this particular county in florida. And i was sort of struck by what the options were. There were other Public Schools potentially, magnets potentially, Charter Schools, then some of the kids were using School Vouchers to go to private school. We follow some of the kids and it wasnt part of that series at all but it just struck me as sort of this tension between sort ofheent found a good fit for their child. And so that just kind of stayed with me and it didnt have much to do with it as far as that particular piece of work. But a kind of was the started thinking about the history of School Choice. Host and so you start this book, and i wont spoil be in but end of the book start in the 1950s, sort of pre and postbrown v. The board of education as a lot of Southern States begin resisting the court orders to integrate. Why did you decide to start the book there . Why japan what that as the origin point of the School Choice movement . Because i imaginee some peoplen the School Choiceha movement wod not be particularly proud that thats the beginning of their movement. Guest yeah, and i think that theres some awkwardness about that, right . But if they one of the things i was trying to figure out when us trying to decide how to start the book is sort of look for where this idea began. It was actually hard to pin point where the idea begins because sort of the stylized history of School Choice is that it starts with Milton Friedman, an economist writing an essay about vouchers in the 50s, and in the history that stole often is that the nothing sort of happens. Friedman keeps this idea life, then in 1990 the walkie starts the first School Voucher program in the country, the first modern one. That is sort of the history you here. But theres other pieces of American History that you kind of have to go back to. You have to look at what the Founding Fathers intended for education and have developed because there wasnt an agreement of how to educate the nations children. You can look at what happened with catholics come into this country. We had all of this emigration of catholic people, and a Common School system was forming at that time in the the 1800s,t was distinctly protestant. You could also start with the catholics and the whole piece of the history. And so i kind of was grappling with well, what makes sense at the beginning . I decided 1950, batches because of segregation, i thought was interesting about that time. Mac was you did that Milton Friedman writing this essay about School Vouchers. You also had sort of a lesserknown figure in virgil blew it was a priest in the walkie very much interested in School Vouchers for religious liberty and hope religious familiesex attend by the school and particularly Catholic Schools butou not exclusive to that. They had these two voices and at the same time you had segregationists who are interested essentially of privatizing the School System to avoid brown. It starred in the lead up to brown and it seems clear that were moving in that direction and then intensified postbrown. But i thought that time. Mac is so fascinating because you start to see how you could take one sort of mechanism in School Vouchers and just for a lot of different purposes and i felt like today were still having some of those same threads, some of the same questions about vouchers about who they are for, who they are not four. Does it help or hurt thepu publc system . And how do you y factor in sortf values, you know, religious education into that. So i felt like some of those debates in the 1950s are still in play. So thats why decided to start there. Host i found the beginning of the book to be one of the most intriguing and compelling parts, partially because it is so dramatic, very emotional and it really has to do with one of the biggest cases in u. S. Supreme court history. I obvious he encouraged the viewers to pick up the book and read it, but can you walk us through all of it how brown v. The board of education and how desegregation gave birth to a School Choice movement . Guest it was interesting. There was, as i said there was sort of indications that brown was coming down theth line. There had only been a few court cases that were at the university level, desegregation cases at the university level, and so it seemed clear that next would be the k12 system. And so it kind of started in georgia. That was one of the first places where there were influentialyi voices saying we essentially need to give a Public Schools rather than desegregate them. One of the things i found interesting in the research was, you know, this was before google and internety and really widespread availability of news and the way we understand it now. And yet these voices in georgia were picked up by national media. Media. So the was an awareness that happening. Ii thought that was kind of interesting. And then through watching how would spread, right, because georgia came up with w this idea of were going to privatize the School Systema youre not just through vouchers. Vouchers was sort of an escape mechanism for students. I mean, they were talking about leasing buildings to private entities. They were talkingki about puttig Public School teachers, having private School Teachers then be eligible for state benefits. They were talking about a wholesale privatization of the system, not just vouchers. And so i thought that was sort of this interesting example of how you might use vouchers, but brown itself was just a sea change for education in america. And so have south reacted to it was incredibly interesting. But theres also this sort of tension there that segregation exists in the north, not just a southern thing. I didnt have that kind of factored into the future of School Vouchers. Families fleeing the south and encountering different types of discrimination in the north. And so i just have that whole time just so interesting. Host so basically, i realize this is an oversimplification, but a lot of states created Voucher Programs for white families just dirt integration come so that theyno would not have to send a white children to school alongside black children. Guest yeah, and is actually considered sort of less extreme measure which sounds strange and a fellow starting wednesday in the research because it seems like an extreme measure. But this was considered sort of a moderate alternative to just closing schools, which did happen in a few places. And so it was sort of viewed as this escape mechanism as i said to let white families send their children to allwhite schools, allwhite private. Schools. When it started been struck down by the courts,th the courts very quickly caught on to a lot of the things that segregationists wereir doing to scott brown and started striking endres lost overpass, then they tried, southern lawmakers tried to make the program sort of raceneutral. Many did see tiny numbers of black students also using vouchers, but it was pretty clearly a movement for white families to avoid desegregated Public Schools. Host yeah, that to me is one of the most shocking things about that era, that Public Officials would have rather shut down Public Schools, but they actually did not far from d. C. And parts of virginia rather than have in the greater Public Schools. No Public School to them was superior to integrated Public Schools. You mentioned that you found a lot of things really intriguing about this. Im curiousri to know, youve bn an education reporter for every long time period we are all a station in florida im sure you have covered the debate over School Choice, over school reform. Florida is Like Laboratory of School Choice. What were some of the surprising things that you learned in researching this book . Guest are it was interesting how little i, actually did know. I was reporter in florida for ten years, and i grew up in Washington State which has essentially no School Choice, very blue state, not the part that i grew up in actually but over all. Washington has sort of Charter Schools, a little bit, but it was extremely, you know, it was contested in the courts. So i grew up in a place with no choice, and then i moved to florida as an education reporter and i spent ten years in there. Theres tons of choice pics ive sort of unfamiliar with it, and as an education reporter, so all in your focus is on covering the local School District, covering the government agency. Suddenly i spent a lot of time first try and understand how the system works, understand how florida finances, it schools, kind of basic things. Answer bumping into choice from time to time. I might cover a Charter School that was getting shut down by the School District that had oversight, oversight of the Charter School. Cite might cover that, it but it wasnt necessarily really tuned into the history of it all. I d would sort of run up against the debate for it, but it was, when i was there was sort of an established thing already. The court case that struck down a particular Voucher Program in florida had happened, and so it was that interesting to me when i started researching it, i did know nearly as much as i thought i knew, i guess is a way to say it. And so lots of things were revelatory to me. More than i, would like to adm. And then kind of nothing happened. And then milwaukee and. I didnt even know that much about milwaukee to be honest. Yeah, its interesting too, because i think especially if we really myopic and look at this in the present, we might view these issues to be kind of strictly bipartisan republicans are in favor of School Choice. Democrats are against. But as your book shows, as your book says thats not the case, even going back to the origin, i really liked the anecdote you shared about the sociologist who wrote in a publication. Can you talk how School Choice decides a lot of the rules that we have come to think of that, you know, split issues into half . Yeah, that was one of the things that i think kept me going through all of the research, i spent five years on it, was the sort of surprising moments in the research and one of them, i think, was the idea that this was not strictly a right wing thing. And certainly in the present day, you know, School Choice is incredibly polarizing and people have very, very strong feelings about it. There does not seem to be middle ground. Ive gone in search of middle ground and i have not found much. One of the things i thought was really surprising was sort of this idea of overlap. That if you start the book in 1950, you have these overlapping ideas from voucher advocates and you have the segregationists and Milton Freedman and bloom. And then these programs that were started in the south, they started very quickly to get shut down by the court in the late 50s and into the 60s. But during 1960s, even as the courts are saying these programs are essentially racist, you know, and you have new voices coming in and some were progressive voices saying, School Vouchers could actually be a tool of empowerment for low income kids and particularly for black children and i thought that was so startling that you would be making an argument like that at the same moment that the courts are saying these programs are supporting desegregation and they need to end. So i thought that overlap was fascinating and some of the people, Christopher Jenks, you mentioned, thats the anecdote, who wrote in two different politically leaning magazines about this idea and he was, you know, fairly liberal socialologist at the time and Kenneth Clark who was actually involved in brown, he wrote an essay about this. You know, and so i thought that was something that i think is out there a little bit if youre in maybe the Choice Movement. I think youre aware of some of those voices potentially, but i think the larger, you know, most people i dont think are actually aware of that and so, i thought that was interesting and you see that essentially throughout the entire history which i also thought it was fascinating. Certainly, its dominated by the movement is dominated by conservatives, but theyre not the only voices so i found that kind of intriguing and it made me sort of big a little deeper into, okay, well, then how did that sort of work, you know, how did these different ideas about choice sort of play against each other, you know . And i thought it was interesting that you had Milton Freedman essentially debating this, Christopher Jenks and how you do vouchers. Thats astonishing. On one hand in the south School Choice to avoid integration, to avoid a major ruling on civil rights in the north and milwaukee is a great example of this. People arguing this is a tool of empowerment for black families. I think, really, theres nobody who really embodies that contradiction more than Polly Williams in milwaukee. She to me was a very, very fascinating character. Can you talk a little about her and her role in the movement . Sure. So Polly Williams was a black Democratic State legislator in milwaukee, in wisconsin, and she was shes passed away now, but she was a really interesting woman because she was deeply interested in education, but she was opposed to integration and she was very much i mean, i think i would call her a black nationalist. She was very interested in helping her community. She was very interested in trying to sort of make institutions work for black families, and she didnt think that the milwaukee Public School district was working for black children and so, she did a number of things trying to sort of improve the system and one of the things that she was opposed to was busing. She didnt she thought essentially that integration in milwaukee was trying too hard, the burden was largely on black families and she didnt think that it was actually doing much to help black children. She didnt think they were benefitting from being bused to another school. And so, you know, some of her policies were attacking integration policies. Some of the things she proposed, like one of the ones i think that got the most attention was that she and howard fuller, a civil rights activist involved in the Movement Made a proposal for an allblack School District. That was one of the ones that really got headlines, but in a lot of different ways, she was trying to improve education and felt like she really wasnt getting a lot from her own party, from democrats, and sort of became open to this idea of School Vouchers. And she would say, and she was quoted as saying, it wasnt about American History<\/a> tv documents americas stories, and on sundays booktv bngs you the latest and nonfiction books and authors. Funding for cspan2 come from these Television Companies<\/a> and more including sparklight. The greatest town on earth is the place you call home. At sparklight its our home, too, and right now we are all facing the greatest challenge. Thats why sparklight is working around the clock to keep you connected. We are doing our part of switzerland easier to do yours. Sparklight, with his Television Companies<\/a>, supports cspan2 as a Public Service<\/a>. Host its a wonderful to be here talking with you today about your book. I wanted to per se what an extraordinary achievement. This book is the most authoritative history that i personally have read of the School Choice<\/a> movement. It is so thoroughly researched. It is really, it really feels encyclopedic to me almost, lie his everything would ever need to know. I wanted to first ask, im obviously very thinly with your incredible work as an education reporter, and in l a lot of education reporters have the sort of crystallizing moments in reportingas where we are in a classroom or with a family and we have an aha moment. Im curious to know if you have one of those moments that led you to start writing this book . Guest thats a good question. I think, i think i started thinking about School Choice<\/a> movement when ii was reporting about segregation in florida, and as part of that reporting our team interviewed just dozens of families that werery essentially trying to escape the segregated sort of lowperforming schools in this particular county in florida. And i was sort of struck by what the options were. There were other Public Schools<\/a> potentially, magnets potentially, Charter School<\/a>s, then some of the kids were using School Vouchers<\/a> to go to private school. We follow some of the kids and it wasnt part of that series at all but it just struck me as sort of this tension between sort ofheent found a good fit for their child. And so that just kind of stayed with me and it didnt have much to do with it as far as that particular piece of work. But a kind of was the started thinking about the history of School Choice<\/a>. Host and so you start this book, and i wont spoil be in but end of the book start in the 1950s, sort of pre and postbrown v. The board of education as a lot of Southern States<\/a> begin resisting the court orders to integrate. Why did you decide to start the book there . Why japan what that as the origin point of the School Choice<\/a> movement . Because i imaginee some peoplen the School Choice<\/a>ha movement wod not be particularly proud that thats the beginning of their movement. Guest yeah, and i think that theres some awkwardness about that, right . But if they one of the things i was trying to figure out when us trying to decide how to start the book is sort of look for where this idea began. It was actually hard to pin point where the idea begins because sort of the stylized history of School Choice<\/a> is that it starts with Milton Friedman<\/a>, an economist writing an essay about vouchers in the 50s, and in the history that stole often is that the nothing sort of happens. Friedman keeps this idea life, then in 1990 the walkie starts the first School Voucher<\/a> program in the country, the first modern one. That is sort of the history you here. But theres other pieces of American History<\/a> that you kind of have to go back to. You have to look at what the Founding Fathers<\/a> intended for education and have developed because there wasnt an agreement of how to educate the nations children. You can look at what happened with catholics come into this country. We had all of this emigration of catholic people, and a Common School<\/a> system was forming at that time in the the 1800s,t was distinctly protestant. You could also start with the catholics and the whole piece of the history. And so i kind of was grappling with well, what makes sense at the beginning . I decided 1950, batches because of segregation, i thought was interesting about that time. Mac was you did that Milton Friedman<\/a> writing this essay about School Vouchers<\/a>. You also had sort of a lesserknown figure in virgil blew it was a priest in the walkie very much interested in School Vouchers<\/a> for religious liberty and hope religious familiesex attend by the school and particularly Catholic Schools<\/a> butou not exclusive to that. They had these two voices and at the same time you had segregationists who are interested essentially of privatizing the School System<\/a> to avoid brown. It starred in the lead up to brown and it seems clear that were moving in that direction and then intensified postbrown. But i thought that time. Mac is so fascinating because you start to see how you could take one sort of mechanism in School Vouchers<\/a> and just for a lot of different purposes and i felt like today were still having some of those same threads, some of the same questions about vouchers about who they are for, who they are not four. Does it help or hurt thepu publc system . And how do you y factor in sortf values, you know, religious education into that. So i felt like some of those debates in the 1950s are still in play. So thats why decided to start there. Host i found the beginning of the book to be one of the most intriguing and compelling parts, partially because it is so dramatic, very emotional and it really has to do with one of the biggest cases in u. S. Supreme court history. I obvious he encouraged the viewers to pick up the book and read it, but can you walk us through all of it how brown v. The board of education and how desegregation gave birth to a School Choice<\/a> movement . Guest it was interesting. There was, as i said there was sort of indications that brown was coming down theth line. There had only been a few court cases that were at the university level, desegregation cases at the university level, and so it seemed clear that next would be the k12 system. And so it kind of started in georgia. That was one of the first places where there were influentialyi voices saying we essentially need to give a Public Schools<\/a> rather than desegregate them. One of the things i found interesting in the research was, you know, this was before google and internety and really widespread availability of news and the way we understand it now. And yet these voices in georgia were picked up by national media. Media. So the was an awareness that happening. Ii thought that was kind of interesting. And then through watching how would spread, right, because georgia came up with w this idea of were going to privatize the School System<\/a>a youre not just through vouchers. Vouchers was sort of an escape mechanism for students. I mean, they were talking about leasing buildings to private entities. They were talkingki about puttig Public School<\/a> teachers, having private School Teachers<\/a> then be eligible for state benefits. They were talking about a wholesale privatization of the system, not just vouchers. And so i thought that was sort of this interesting example of how you might use vouchers, but brown itself was just a sea change for education in america. And so have south reacted to it was incredibly interesting. But theres also this sort of tension there that segregation exists in the north, not just a southern thing. I didnt have that kind of factored into the future of School Vouchers<\/a>. Families fleeing the south and encountering different types of discrimination in the north. And so i just have that whole time just so interesting. Host so basically, i realize this is an oversimplification, but a lot of states created Voucher Program<\/a>s for white families just dirt integration come so that theyno would not have to send a white children to school alongside black children. Guest yeah, and is actually considered sort of less extreme measure which sounds strange and a fellow starting wednesday in the research because it seems like an extreme measure. But this was considered sort of a moderate alternative to just closing schools, which did happen in a few places. And so it was sort of viewed as this escape mechanism as i said to let white families send their children to allwhite schools, allwhite private. Schools. When it started been struck down by the courts,th the courts very quickly caught on to a lot of the things that segregationists wereir doing to scott brown and started striking endres lost overpass, then they tried, southern lawmakers tried to make the program sort of raceneutral. Many did see tiny numbers of black students also using vouchers, but it was pretty clearly a movement for white families to avoid desegregated Public Schools<\/a>. Host yeah, that to me is one of the most shocking things about that era, that Public Officials<\/a> would have rather shut down Public Schools<\/a>, but they actually did not far from d. C. And parts of virginia rather than have in the greater Public Schools<\/a>. No Public School<\/a> to them was superior to integrated Public Schools<\/a>. You mentioned that you found a lot of things really intriguing about this. Im curiousri to know, youve bn an education reporter for every long time period we are all a station in florida im sure you have covered the debate over School Choice<\/a>, over school reform. Florida is Like Laboratory<\/a> of School Choice<\/a>. What were some of the surprising things that you learned in researching this book . Guest are it was interesting how little i, actually did know. I was reporter in florida for ten years, and i grew up in Washington State<\/a> which has essentially no School Choice<\/a>, very blue state, not the part that i grew up in actually but over all. Washington has sort of Charter School<\/a>s, a little bit, but it was extremely, you know, it was contested in the courts. So i grew up in a place with no choice, and then i moved to florida as an education reporter and i spent ten years in there. Theres tons of choice pics ive sort of unfamiliar with it, and as an education reporter, so all in your focus is on covering the local School District<\/a>, covering the government agency. Suddenly i spent a lot of time first try and understand how the system works, understand how florida finances, it schools, kind of basic things. Answer bumping into choice from time to time. I might cover a Charter School<\/a> that was getting shut down by the School District<\/a> that had oversight, oversight of the Charter School<\/a>. Cite might cover that, it but it wasnt necessarily really tuned into the history of it all. I d would sort of run up against the debate for it, but it was, when i was there was sort of an established thing already. The court case that struck down a particular Voucher Program<\/a> in florida had happened, and so it was that interesting to me when i started researching it, i did know nearly as much as i thought i knew, i guess is a way to say it. And so lots of things were revelatory to me. More than i, would like to adm. And then kind of nothing happened. And then milwaukee and. I didnt even know that much about milwaukee to be honest. Yeah, its interesting too, because i think especially if we really myopic and look at this in the present, we might view these issues to be kind of strictly bipartisan republicans are in favor of School Choice<\/a>. Democrats are against. But as your book shows, as your book says thats not the case, even going back to the origin, i really liked the anecdote you shared about the sociologist who wrote in a publication. Can you talk how School Choice<\/a> decides a lot of the rules that we have come to think of that, you know, split issues into half . Yeah, that was one of the things that i think kept me going through all of the research, i spent five years on it, was the sort of surprising moments in the research and one of them, i think, was the idea that this was not strictly a right wing thing. And certainly in the present day, you know, School Choice<\/a> is incredibly polarizing and people have very, very strong feelings about it. There does not seem to be middle ground. Ive gone in search of middle ground and i have not found much. One of the things i thought was really surprising was sort of this idea of overlap. That if you start the book in 1950, you have these overlapping ideas from voucher advocates and you have the segregationists and Milton Freedman<\/a> and bloom. And then these programs that were started in the south, they started very quickly to get shut down by the court in the late 50s and into the 60s. But during 1960s, even as the courts are saying these programs are essentially racist, you know, and you have new voices coming in and some were progressive voices saying, School Vouchers<\/a> could actually be a tool of empowerment for low income kids and particularly for black children and i thought that was so startling that you would be making an argument like that at the same moment that the courts are saying these programs are supporting desegregation and they need to end. So i thought that overlap was fascinating and some of the people, Christopher Jenks<\/a>, you mentioned, thats the anecdote, who wrote in two different politically leaning magazines about this idea and he was, you know, fairly liberal socialologist at the time and Kenneth Clark<\/a> who was actually involved in brown, he wrote an essay about this. You know, and so i thought that was something that i think is out there a little bit if youre in maybe the Choice Movement<\/a>. I think youre aware of some of those voices potentially, but i think the larger, you know, most people i dont think are actually aware of that and so, i thought that was interesting and you see that essentially throughout the entire history which i also thought it was fascinating. Certainly, its dominated by the movement is dominated by conservatives, but theyre not the only voices so i found that kind of intriguing and it made me sort of big a little deeper into, okay, well, then how did that sort of work, you know, how did these different ideas about choice sort of play against each other, you know . And i thought it was interesting that you had Milton Freedman<\/a> essentially debating this, Christopher Jenks<\/a> and how you do vouchers. Thats astonishing. On one hand in the south School Choice<\/a> to avoid integration, to avoid a major ruling on civil rights in the north and milwaukee is a great example of this. People arguing this is a tool of empowerment for black families. I think, really, theres nobody who really embodies that contradiction more than Polly Williams<\/a> in milwaukee. She to me was a very, very fascinating character. Can you talk a little about her and her role in the movement . Sure. So Polly Williams<\/a> was a black Democratic State<\/a> legislator in milwaukee, in wisconsin, and she was shes passed away now, but she was a really interesting woman because she was deeply interested in education, but she was opposed to integration and she was very much i mean, i think i would call her a black nationalist. She was very interested in helping her community. She was very interested in trying to sort of make institutions work for black families, and she didnt think that the milwaukee Public School<\/a> district was working for black children and so, she did a number of things trying to sort of improve the system and one of the things that she was opposed to was busing. She didnt she thought essentially that integration in milwaukee was trying too hard, the burden was largely on black families and she didnt think that it was actually doing much to help black children. She didnt think they were benefitting from being bused to another school. And so, you know, some of her policies were attacking integration policies. Some of the things she proposed, like one of the ones i think that got the most attention was that she and howard fuller, a civil rights activist involved in the Movement Made<\/a> a proposal for an allblack School District<\/a>. That was one of the ones that really got headlines, but in a lot of different ways, she was trying to improve education and felt like she really wasnt getting a lot from her own party, from democrats, and sort of became open to this idea of School Vouchers<\/a>. And she would say, and she was quoted as saying, it wasnt about Milton Freedman<\/a>, she didnt necessarily have a familiarity with Milton Freedman<\/a>. For her, it was very much, this is something that could help black students essentially leave the public School System<\/a> that she thought was and here is the one who embodies some of these contradictions. I dont want to give it all away, but she became somewhat disillusioned with some of her White Conservative<\/a> allies over time. So i thought her story spoke to a lot of the difference sort of questions and debates and the tension in all of this. Thats one of the reason in the book, also, milwaukee was the first modern program so it made sense to Pay Attention<\/a> there. And you had a woman you describe as a black nationalist, representing a majority black city, partnering with white lawmakers, conservative lawmakers. She called it the unholy alliance. That was the original title of the book and i thought that was great in so many ways. It did not it did not really say education to a lot of people and i ended up using for a chapter title. And i thought that Short Description<\/a> did kind of speak to the strangeness of the alliance that she made with Tommy Thompson<\/a> who was a white republican governor at the time. Thats one of the things that makes education reporting so fascinating. I think that School Choice<\/a> is the best example of that. What do you want people to take away from this book . Book . Well, so, im trying to go into it as a journalist, as someone without a viewpoint, you know. I felt like there are pieces of this history around and theres a number of partisan books, you know, for or against school of choice. So i felt like i wanted to create something that would explain all of this history that i thought i hadnt known as it reporter that it was helpful in sort of understanding whats going on in education right now. And i wanted it to be, you know, sort of neutral and fairminded. Which i think is kind of hard because i think that people want you to make an argument and to pick a side, especially with something thats incredibly polarizing. But i think what im hoping for is that people who are maybe less familiar with school of choice, but are watching the news right now and seeing sort of this landslide of Choice Legislation<\/a>, all of this activity and discussion about parental freedom, all of these things kind of dominating the news, i think what i would hope is someone could read the book at least have a good understanding of how weve reached this place and know where some of this is coming from. And then, you know, i have some sort of driving questions in the introduction about, you know, what does this mean for Public Schools<\/a>, and what does it mean for democracy, and for what do we owe our communities. I didnt want to answer those questions. I wanted that to be for the reader to answer. So yeah, i mean, i wont, again, i wont spoil the ending, but the main meat of the book, sort of ends around 2018, 2019, prepandemic. You do go into the pandemic and whats going on currently in the introduction a little bit. But what if we were to look at the period of time between when your book ends and the current period, you know, you called this the death of Public Schools<\/a>. You do sort of predict that this movement will grow stronger. If we look at that period of time does it prove your thesis . Does it how do you reflect on whats happened since the book ends in relation to your book . Yeah, so, i did end in 2019 and i was sort of i was sort of looking for an ending because its weird to be writing something where its dominating the news cycle, which, you know, that wasnt happening when i started the book around 2017. But it very much was happening as i was finishing the book. You know, the pandemic happened and it was a really strange thing, but i was sort of living through that and my own children were out of school and doing Remote Learning<\/a> and home schooling for a period of time and i had an infant, it was kind of a disaster actually. But it was interesting because so then the pandemic kind of opened up, you know, i think this political opportunity for republicans, you know, to really push School Choice<\/a> legislation in a way we hadnt seen for a while. And so, you know, there was just this crazy avalanche of school of Choice Legislation<\/a> and there was also kind of a shift in argument for it. Right. The argument previously had been a lot about empowering certain groups of students. Students with disabilities. Low income students and there had been a really strong argument that this was actually a civil rights issue. And then somewhere during the pandemic, it shifted a bit and it started being a little about parental freedom for everyone, and then there were a few pieces that came out, you know, the Heritage Foundation<\/a> had a piece come out where the authors were essentially arguing that republicans should use the culture wars, you know, the stuff about crt and dei and these things to push legislative wins, essentially for school of choice. And when i saw that come out, i was really struck by it because its rather different than making an argument centered around civil rights. And then we started to see, you know, republican lawmakers passing laws restricting how you can teach about history, particularly black history. And so, i was looking at this period of time and trying to figure out what it means and i you know, i think its interesting because its made the book really relevant, but i kind of you know, for a history book, i felt like you cant, you cant end literally as new laws are passing. You cant ending something thats like shifting sand. And so i kind of felt, well, i will sort of deal with it in the introduction. I think its very much pointing in the direction and certainly feels like the argument i was making in the book is real and true, and that these things are happening, especially when we look at some of the Supreme Court<\/a> cases, you know. But i felt like it was still a little early to say how all of this would shake out. Because i think right now, were starting a school year when all of this legislation is passed and just now start to go see the numbers of people who are actually going to take the state up on some of the new programs. If no one actually uses the programs, then its not creating the sea change, but were starting to see actually the numbers really increase. So, i think it does point in a direction that it is you know, not great for the public School System<\/a> and i feel more and more confident about the argument that i was making, but i still think there are very Big Questions<\/a> about where it all ends up. Im trying to be conscious that is one education reporter talking to another education reporter. Can you talk a little bit about what has happened since the book ended in 2018 . I know you deal with some of it in the introduction, but it seems like were living through a pretty Extraordinary Part<\/a> of the School Choice<\/a> movement. Can you talk a little about what has happened since the pandemic started . Yeah, i mean, i think i think that theres been this explosion of Choice Legislation<\/a>. Huge expansion. More than half the states in the country now have choice programs. Theres also been kind of an interesting backlash against Charter School<\/a>s, which had been sort of the more popular and accepted education reform from choice. You know, that had bipartisan support. When President Trump<\/a> came into office and when betsy devos became the education secretary, i think that administration was so polarizing that it has some ripple effects in choice so we did see kind of a democratic backlash against Charter School<\/a>s. You know, and that, that, i think, is still playing out a little bit, but now we have also this question of whether or not theres going to be religious Charter School<\/a>s, which is kind of a wild card thing thats still playing out even in the last few months. But i think the overall thing that has happened is that theres just been this massive expansion of School Choice<\/a> legislation and one of the key things within that has been, you know, the push for universal School Vouchers<\/a>, which means theyre no longer limited to low income children or theyre no longer limited to just the facilities, but the idea that every family is entitled to take some amount of tax dollars and then pay, you know, use it to pay for the education that suits them. And it varies a little bit by state, but generally speaking that, you know, that means home schooling and private education and, you know, if you want to use it for tutoring, online learning, and so, i think that piece of it, thats its really gone universal is one of the biggest things that weve seen and for me, you know, the argument i was making in the book was sort of looking at whose vision for School Choice<\/a> sort of wins out in the end. Is it Milton Freedman<\/a> who was very much in favor of universal vouchers for everyone or through Polly Williams<\/a> who very much viewed it as a tool for low income children and i think right now were really seeing that its freedman, you know, its universal vouchers that sort of wins the day. And maybe the priest bloom who really wanted the opportunity to direct more taxpayers dollars towards religious schools. Yeah, virgil bloom is sort after lesserknown figure and i talked to people in the Choice Movement<\/a> who dont know who he is, which is interesting because he really sort of predicted a lot of this in a way and was arguing in a direction that now were seeing the Supreme Court<\/a> take, but he was making the argument in the 50s and 60s, you know, and its very that was really interesting in the research to look back at some of the things he was writing decades and decades ago that are so relevant today. So i think the religious liberty aspect of it is also having a moment. I think, yeah, one of these i have been writing a lot about the religious part of school in oklahoma, this is a Catholic School<\/a> or a Catholic Dioces<\/a> that wants to open a virtual Charter School<\/a>, entirely funded by taxpayer dollars. And theyve said, you know, theyre sort of picking and choosing which federal laws they would abide by. Im curious to know how much i think that Christian Nationalism<\/a> is playing into the current School Choice<\/a> movement . Because there are obviously people who believe that the u. S. Was founded as a Christian Country<\/a> and that therefore, we should allow taxpayers to support Christian Education<\/a> in the schools and that even Public Schools<\/a> should have some christianity taught. How much do you think thats playing into the current School Choice<\/a> movement . Its interesting to me because i think its a lot more relevant now, actually, than it was. You know, the i use virgil bloom in the book to sort of stand in for a lot of those issues, you know, but actually when you look at how school of choice happened and how it passed legislatively, it had very little to do with a push for religious education. You know, thats not how milwaukee or cleveland really happened. And i mean, in the sense of how it passed and how they formed, you know, ally ships to get the legislation to pass. That wasnt really a piece of it. I think its interesting now because its very much a part of it in a way that i think it wasnt, you know, in the 90s and in the early 2000s. Religious schools were included, eventually included in milwaukee and cleveland started with them so it raised all of the church state questions, but it wasnt sort of the argument that people within the movement were making for why we needed it, right . That wasnt it wasnt about pluralism and the United States<\/a> history as a Christian Country<\/a>. It wasnt sort of a bounce back. And its interesting because the Supreme Court<\/a>, you know, essentially validated clevelands vouchers in 2002 and one of the lawyers involved in that case in a piece afterward for the new york times, he was quoted as saying, if the case had been about if the justices use the case about being about religion then it probably wasnt going to go anywhere, but they viewed it about being education and then they had a shot at winning and they did end up winning. And its striking to see that so many arguments for choice are essentially about values and you know, pluralism that the country has this history, you know, of so many different people from so many different places and different religious views all being here together. You know, and that people should be allowed to select an education based on their values. And i just find it interesting, because it wasnt really as big of a thread in most of the history as it is now. Apart from maybe if you want to go back to the 1800s and talk about catholics, that was very much that, but its kind of interesting to watch it now because this isnt what it was about not too long ago. Yeah, i mean, i think that was another really fascinating nugget to me that, you know, we know that the Catholic Church<\/a> has a very, very robust system of schools and that they developed because the Public Schools<\/a> were overtly protestant. That was really, really interesting to me. Yeah, you know, the catholic School System<\/a> is sort of it sort of interesting to watch this playing out with the religious charter because if it opens its going to be explicitly Catholic School<\/a>. Catholics are not monolithic on the issue of choice. Theres always been advocates like bloom who wanted more aid to schools and he thought at that Catholic Schools<\/a> tended to be good and have that reputation, and he thought that these schools are providing a Public Service<\/a> and deserve funding and also, that religious families shouldnt be taxed for a system that they are not, you know, participating in and then also be paying tuition. He thought that was discrimination. But its interesting because the religious Charter School<\/a> opens a lot of questions about government intrusion and government oversight and so not everyone in the School Choice<\/a> movement, you know, is actually in favor of that and so ive found that kind of interesting, too, to watch people saying maybe this is legally permissible and well see, but maybe its not a good idea either. Yeah, that is one thing and again, that really shows that School Choice<\/a> is still even now that its very polarized, not a cleanly partisan issue because you have advocates for Charter School<\/a>s, for example, who are coming out again, religious Charter School<\/a> because they believe that Charter School<\/a> should be public and follow the same laws and rules that Public Schools<\/a> do. Im curious to know, too, like how much and this is something i reflect on a lot, especially in covering the politics of education movements and the politics of education, were frequently talking to adults who have their own agendas, who bring an ideology to want to, now, make political wins. In reflecting on this book, how much was this about kids . A great question. You know, ive spent some time as i was writing the book, thinking about the fact that this was much more a legal history than i realized and it was much more about politics than i realized. And you know, in that the push means an interesting direction as a reporter you know, because i had first kind of become interested in it because i was following families and interviewing children and then watching them go to different schools and sort of seeing their experiences of, you know, was this a good escape from Public Schools<\/a>, was it not, watching people essentially bounce around looking for the right fit and then to be doing sort of the writing and the research and realize that actually a lot of this is political arguments. A lot of it is legal arguments. And you know, its maybe less about kids than i thought in certain respects, you know . That was sort of startling in a way. And i think students are at the heart of the conversation, right, theyre at the heart of the debate because its essentially about how do we educate the nations kids and what is Public Education<\/a>. You know, you hear republicans making an argument that Public Education<\/a> is actually any education paid for with tax dollars, which is rather different than the traditional understanding of what Public Schools<\/a> are. You know, and so, it is for a it is sort of interesting to see the kids being a little bit secondary, sometimes, to a legal argument and sort of political maneuvering. One example i had in the book that i thoughts was more about political maneuvering and less about children was what happened with washington d. C. s program very early on when republican lawmakers were making some of the first proposals for d. C. To have School Vouchers<\/a>. The vouchers were worth so little that even the private schools in d. C. Were saying, you know, this isnt going to pay our tuition. Youd need so much more money to make this meaningful. So, you know, i asked a few School Choice<\/a> advocates, what was this really about . Because it really didnt seem to actually be about opening a lot of doors for children with the first proposal. Not talking about later on. And you know, and people told me what was more about keeping the argument alive than thinking it was actually going to happen. Especially at that time of the democratic president. So basically, there was a proposal for a Voucher Program<\/a> that wouldnt have actually allowed any children to leave Public School<\/a> to attend a private school . Yeah, basically. And so, i guess im sorry, go ahead. It sort of its hard to square an argument that this is about kids, right, and i think some democratic lawmakers sort of pointed out at the time, some of the topography of that. Now, the program, when it did pass, the voucher was worth a lot more and then you might be able to say its more about actually Opening Doors<\/a> for children, but that very early proposal, it was just i just thought it was striking when you have private School Leaders<\/a> saying, you know, this isnt enough to be meaningful. And im really interested in the fact that you actually started, you know, your interest in this topic came from actually reporting on families who were trying to make these decisions, rather than the other way, which is typically how it happens. How did your reporting in Pinellas County<\/a> in florida and sitting with these families who were trying to decide whether they were going to use a Voucher Program<\/a> or send their child to a Charter School<\/a>. How did that inform the way you did your research and how you wrote the book . Well, you know, its interesting because i wasnt, as i said, i wasnt super familiar with all the ins and outs of the history of school of choice and very much not focused on that. What i was covering in Pinellas County<\/a> was very much about one School District<\/a> making, you know, kind of this horrible decision to essentially resegregate their schools and then what happened over time as those schools were sort of bled of resources and that was very much my focus and i really thought that that piece of work. It was five stories, that series. Book two, you know, segregation and integration as a potential solution, and i thought it was sort of interesting when that the piece of work i very much viewed through the lens of whether a person was for or against choice. And so some people who read that thought, well, the solution to desegregated schools is to give children choice, to give them the ability to leave and other people, you know, sort of viewed it as very much a bid for these schools need more resources, they need more funding and veteran teachers. And so, i became kind of aware of that, the sort of polarizing reactions to it in the aftermath, but i wasnt focused on that when i was reporting it. The thing i sort of did take away from it was watching families who had choices, technically, but maybe not good ones. You know . And so maybe you had a family who was in this sort of underresourced, segregated, elementary school, Public School<\/a> and journalists and maybe there is a Charter School<\/a> nearby, but not doing much better than the school that they came from, it has many of the same issues. And so then maybe they bounce to a private school with a voucher and then theres pitfalls there. You know, theres kind of this thing that stuck with me was this tension between the systemic reform, which can take a long time, and what do you do for your child right now and thats kind of actually what informed a lot of the reporting and the research for the book was sort of looking at where that fit into this history and kind of how that played out. And i imagine i know the answer to this, but when families were weighing what they were going to do. Where they were going to send their child and when you were doing this reporting. Were they thinking about politics, thinking about the fact that sending their child or using a voucher could be a win for jeb bush or what were some of the things that they were actually thinking about . No, politics wasnt in it at all. And thats one thing i tried to highlight a little bit in the book. I have a very sort of short section where you kind of have to zoom out a little bit from this argument and move away from that and look at, well, what are the families actually looking at. Theyre not really concerned about church state, legal history. You know . Theyre not necessarily having the sort of political debate or viewing this at all through that lens. Its very much about, you know, does this school have recess, which the Public Schools<\/a> that i wrote about in Pinellas County<\/a>, some of them did not have recess. Some of the classrooms, they were so stark that they, you know, they made me want to cry when i left them. I felt bad that the children were in those schools. Some of the families i talked to were very worried about safety, you know . I mean, some of their kids had been hit or kicked or, you know, theyd experienced violence in the schools and so safety was a concern. You know, there were just some of the actual concerns had nothing to do with politics and very much to do with how is my child going to navigate the school day. Are they going to learn to read . Are they going to get to go outside and play sometimes . Is the school a joyful place . Is it focused on test prep, you know . All of these things that are very familiar to me as a parent and sometimes get, i think, lost a little bit in the debate and they should be grappled with more. And i think also one of the most fascinating scenes i recall from the book when betsy devos showed up at a private school in milwaukee to talk about School Choice<\/a>, shes probably the most polarizing education secretary in history and drew protesters and a black parent who was walking their child in said youre talking about somebodys kids. And what does that show about the School Choice<\/a> movement . Yeah, i really appreciated that school in milwaukee for letting me sort of come in. I want wasnt there for the process and i interviewed families, and that particular scene that that man recounted for me. That kind of came from the families who were a little bit sort of hurt and maybe irritated that this debate was essentially happening about their child without sort of the recognition that it was about their child and, you know, and what i thought was interesting there, is thats a lutheran private school in milwaukee. Its a fairly High Performing School<\/a> because milwaukees Program Requires<\/a> a certain amount of accountability you can actually compare test scores and such a High Performing School<\/a> and it considered one of the better schools that takes vouchers. Its predominantly black, predominantly low income and it was at the time and i assume it may still be now, but one of the things that the parents picked up on was that many, many of the protesters, most of the protesters were white and they were very much reacting to betsy devos, who, as you said is a really polarizing figure herself, but i thought this is so interesting as far as all of these threads that i was sort of following in the history, you know, because it was about race. It was about who was using the School Vouchers<\/a> and it was about who was protesting the School Vouchers<\/a> and i thought there were some things sort of crystallized in that moment where i could sort of direct the readers attention a little bit more to families and how theyre sort of living this out and what theyre interested in. And maybe use that protest to sort of get at some of those things. You know, one of the things thats really interesting is that race is a thread thats pretty much unavoidable throughout the book. You know, its pretty overt at the beginning. White families are using School Vouchers<\/a> to escape integrated Public Schools<\/a>, but you know, things get sort of muddled, obviously, at the same time a lot of black leaders are saying that this is a tool for empowerment. Could you talk about the surprising ways that race has been into school of choice. If youre starting in this time period in 1950, segregation and thats one of the Main Elements<\/a> at the beginning when freedman and bloom are making their arguments and you kind of track that over time. Race is unavoidable, its a major part of the history and frankly, i think the argument that this was a civil rights issue is sort of how, you know, School Choice<\/a> advocates essentially won the day and legally speaking and made their case to the public in a lot of ways. So its interesting to see, you know, how that how that tension plays out. Because you also have black families and latino families who are opposed to school of choice, you know, and you kind of have to grapple with that. Milwaukee had a lot of support from black leaders, you know, Polly Williams<\/a> was very influential, but other black leaders were also in support and that had a lot of sort of grass roots support from black families. Cleveland actually didnt and i thought that was interesting. Because a lot of black legislators in ohio actually were opposed. You know, very much opposed to School Vouchers<\/a> and they felt like this is going to bleed resources out of the School System<\/a>. You know, its not going to help enough kids to make it meaningful while it actually pulls things out of a system that needs help and needs resources. So i felt like, you know, i wanted to sort of make those different points that this wasnt all one thing. It wasnt supported by it wasnt this kind of monolithic thing and it played out differently in different cities and you saw that also in washington d. C. When initially some of the, you know, black democratic lawmakers were opposed to School Vouchers<\/a> and then i think because the citys School System<\/a> was not doing well, came around on the issue, you know, and so, i just i tried to look for different elements of the history that sort of exposed some of the thread and the different ways that race played into it. One of the most and i dont mean to touch the third rail here. One of the most controversial assessments ive heard of School Choice<\/a> movement and you get into this in the book is that White Conservative<\/a>s are using black families, black leaders, and purposely starving Public Schools<\/a> of resources to advance choice. And quote, unquote, using them. And Polly Williams<\/a>, they said they were using Polly Williams<\/a> for her race and party. What do you think some against the School Choice<\/a> movement that some in the black community are using to those arguments . I found that interesting as well, but i think you actually have to talk to black families and black leaders. Polly williams is gone, but she addressed that in her lifetime, she did not feel used. She had different intentions for choice than some of her allies did and she was extremely comfortable calling them out publicly when she felt like they were going in the direction that she didnt agree with. You know, howard fuller, who also is in the book and was an influential school of choice advocate and nationally and from milwaukee, he sort of addressed that, too. And had differences of his own with some of his White Conservative<\/a> allies and some of those really came out over accountability for the program. You know, some of the people like fuller and williams wanted greater accountability for the program because they saw some of the problems for families when things didnt go well and a school closed. You know, and so i think i think its not for me to say if conservatives are using black families or black leaders. I think its for them to say, right . Because i think they have agency. You know, i think that i think that you know, fuller kind of said he addressed this and he said, you know, that he could see why conservative allies wanted to sort of hold him up because he was he is, you know, former superintendent of milwaukee Public Schools<\/a> and he is a choice advocate and hes a black man and he addressed this in his memoir and very much understood why they would want to push him out front and center as a face for the movement. Similar as they had with Polly Williams<\/a>. At the end of the day, for him. He thought that School Choice<\/a> was the best tool of empowerment for black families, you know, and for all families, really. So, you know, i think its maybe more nuanced answer to that charge that you hear, you know . And i think that we see this with we see a lot of support from school of choice for black and latino families, especially young ones. I dont want to leave Public Schools<\/a> out of the conversation. What does it mean traditional Public Schools<\/a> and what do you mean if it continues to grow . I think its going to play out differently depending on where it is. Right . Because i think were seeing this play out regionally almost. Red states are passing all of these choice programs, blue states not so much. In fact, in some blue states you see some pull back on, you know, Charter School<\/a>s and greater regulation. Whats interesting to me and why i sort of drew some of the conclusions that i drew, that if youre talking about having different School System<\/a>s, you know, essentially different School System<\/a>s, red state versus blue, then weve already gone a long ways from where we started with a traditional public School System<\/a> for everyone and i think, you know, its still playing out with some of these programs, the universal programs. And some of the early projections, you know, in arizona and florida have the programs costing a lot more than maybe what was anticipated in part because theyre also open to families who already are in private schools. So the state is essentially subsidizing private education, you know, and so i really wonder if theres not going to be some kind of backlash or some kind of attempt to deal with ballooning costs. But i also, you know, i wonder if republicans really can or would want to pull back on that and so, i just, you know, i think at the end of the day, theres almost theres only so much money and the way some of these programs work, you dont have a very good ability to plan, you know, your budget as a School District<\/a> and so, you know, i dont think that it bodes really well for traditional Public Schools<\/a>, but i do think its going to, you know, its just going to be different in florida versus, you know, where i grew up in washington. Well, were out of time. Thank you so much. Its been such a great conversation, the book is wonderful and congratulations again. Thank you so much. As part of our new series, were asking you, what books do you think shaped america . My pick for the book that shaped america is to kill a mockingbird. And one by betty freedman. And you can join in the conversation by submitting your pick for the book you think helped shape this country. Just go to our website, cspan. Org books that shaped america. Click the viewer input tab and record the video. In 3 seconds or less tell us urick and why. Be se to watch books that shaped america live every monday at 9 p. M. Astern on cspan. Weekends on cspan2 are an intellectual feast. Every saturday American History<\/a> tv documents americas story and on sundays, book tv bris","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia600504.us.archive.org\/8\/items\/CSPAN2_20231011_124700_After_Words_Cara_Fitzpatrick_The_Death_of_Public_School\/CSPAN2_20231011_124700_After_Words_Cara_Fitzpatrick_The_Death_of_Public_School.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20231011_124700_After_Words_Cara_Fitzpatrick_The_Death_of_Public_School_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240703T12:35:10+00:00"}