Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion 20240703

Better system. Thank you very much. [applause] do we go straight to the second panel or short break . Enjoy a cup of coffee and well will be back for more fireworks. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] ladies and gentlemen if everyone would take a seat we are going to get started. If everybody just wants to get a chair. Unlike the Payment System we run on time here. We will have to do this the bob barker way. Founding fathers set down to ride the constitution in the summer of 1887 had been scarred not only by war but by series of sales monetary experiment, experiments with money issued by the state. The scars of those battles are written in the pages of the constitution itself which has a narrow view of what money w is. This is going to get quickly. That view basically sought legal tender is the endpoint. The moment history they were on the three banks in the entire United States to the plate is secretly prominent t role in money. Gold and silver coins, no thanks. Think of how far we have come in 200e years. There is a lesson here about the durability of money and payments that i think is important to understanding the context of this nextta panel. The first panel they talked about the challenges we face in using technology that exists today in order to improve the systems money and payments that we offer americans. Wels also need to have conversations about what money is going to look likes tomorro. It took a supportive 100 years to figure out on the basis of the u. S. Constitution what a Monetary System involving banks would look like. Currently lesson to the decades and the log in to doubt what does it look like in the Digital World in a world where not only we have gold and silvernl coins. Paper money has long since gone the way of the dustbin. To help walk us through this conversation and be our guide we have none other than Chris Brummer and he needs no introduction. You know chris from the scholarships and some of you know chris from the it the incredible ball of energy from his podcast hunts and tech weaken some of you know him as one of the most creative and constructive policy advocates and financial law to please join me in welcoming to the stage Chris Brummer. [applause] im the guy never knowing whether to sit down or not. Okay, all right. For my next trick will bring the palace to the stage. The one and only brian brooks someone whod truly needs no introduction with the office of comptroller of currency and intellectual. He is a policy advocate. He has a huge brain. We have rajeev date coming to the stage. Im going to introduce you in order of being seated. He helped yesha yadav helped organize a panel and the conference and is a very good friend that dontt have forever from the world bank to vanderbilt in hes one of my intellectual partners in i crim. The managing director of Consumer Protection and at the frontlines of Government Service as well as a privatesector and finally my good friend Christina Skinner one of the leading professors and scholars and thinkers on Financial Regulation and policy. It really is a panel full of people. I adore them and look up to them and respect them and i tried to really learn from you in this conversation. As don mentioned the panel was bringing together a number of themes really going through the help of the economy and the critical nature of the Financial System. I think what we can certainly say is that todays Payment System is really a mix of the old and the new. I have likened it to jfks air force. I guess current renovation to go there and beat a little and the little slow. Its the heart of Global Commerce and there are certain kinds of similarities between our modern Payment System. Lets jump right into the conversation about what exactly are thear options on the table d what exactly can be said about the direction in which our system is evolving and i will start off with yesha and maybe you can kick us off with a professorial explanation of stable coins since that is really where the policy conversation is centering. You can schoolhouse rock us and jump into the sum of the critical point of the conversation. You want me to be the professorial and allow for professorial at that. On capitol hill. We are either too old or too young. To get professorial lets just take a step back. Thats just take a step back. I want to go back to what was said in last panel which is to raise the notion of public funding and since its a worthwhile starting with this definition in clarifying the difference between public andnd private money. We all know it but its worth being really clear about it. The full faith and credit of our government and thats issued by the fed indicates paper money in the treasury is notes and coins. Its fabulous. Then ofan course we have money with a the limited credit risk in that private money. These arek the claims removing all the time at banks nonbanks and others. We talked about the conversation on the Morning Panel about private money that is prevalent across our Payment System. Thats the basics here. When we are thinking about cfpb thats a way to digitize public money. For us the public money that we are addressing his people are basically coins and physical cache. As we talked about in the start of the whole thing most people today are moving towards a cash universe of the question for policymakers is do we need to digitize public money to put it into the form of cfpb and other potential w sophisticated cool things which is the potential for programmability to think about ways in which the money can be directly programmed to do certain things for sample be distributed in the concept of stimulus payments or your kids can only spend about certain things. Thats the accountability as well as the full backed by the government. Also potentially cheaply distributable to reach those who are financially excluded and that benefit from the cheaper access to services. And now in the world of private money and looking at stable coins. Thesele are tokens referencing e taught about earlier cardie assets, transacting of t payment rails that are global in their verifying transactions in very rapid moments in time and they are able to move money super cheaply. What they are offering is a vision of potentially delivering coins to nationals and thats referencing money supported by a number of assets but potentially able to move money much more cheaply and faster than the traditional Banking System is t able to do. Those are the functionalities that stable coin is looking to offer the big picture and theres a whole conversation we have about how they are regulated in talking through that. Those are the basic differences between public money and private money. That was excellent. In thinking about the definition of money and how the definition of money is changing from union of accounts and storage and instruments for moving value and questions like that. Brian do have a unique Vantage Point and firsthand experience from your time in government and also as someone who was working for quite some time. The points of emphasis from yesha were stable coins in cdpds end we see that continue. Particularly with circle, paypal and the conversation but where are the but where the bankson conversation . You dont really hear too much about the specific role that major banks can play in leveraging Digital Assets to improve payments. What should we interpret from that and is it a good or a bad thing and where do banksng fit n to the larger cocktail of both policy and Technological Solutions . Its a good metaphor for this conversation although i had to pick up on the airline metaphors in terms of our Airlines Financial Services Company that are plans that offer financial services. They semi experienced this morning. Let me address the questionn and ill try to be super provocative because thats my role on the plan panel. I think you could makee an argument that one of the reasons for the increased demand for stable coins over the last lets just call it five years and stable coins or market capitol 3 billion of 100 million today so if you go from the begin of 2020 today thats roughly the trajectory. One of the reasons for the increase in demand is not because stable coins themselves are super awesome. It is because the United States is the only country in the developed world that doesnt have an open Banking System. What it means is you have banks that have Privileged Access to the Federal Reserve Payment System and everybody else in the universe. What that means its in the United States the cost of operating the Payment System is four times the cost and say britain nor the eu. Thats because in those countries theres a licensing status that allows access to the settlement rails without being a bank. You had to be a depository to access the services that you have to be a depository of the United States so that creates this an enormous incentive for some nonbanking Settlement Solutions because the traditional payment processors to use banks and if that extra layer that makes everything so expensive but im going to argue there is a market need for settlement and it doesnt have to be outside of the Banking System. Theoretically that the reason it isut outside of the banking sysm is because we have not allowed anybody other than depository to connect to the Federal Reserve. Thats why. They are great things about stablexa coins separate from tht example the fact that they allow people to hold dollar equivalents without having to hold them in a bank account. Thats not in our country but as i argued its highly highly relevant in other countries so one of the big trends going on the world and crystal make this point and then shut up because its relevant to the discussion with that in a world where their strong geopolitical pressure in various parts of the world to be dollar rise. Sometimes its for purely aitoro logical reasons and sometimes its a legitimate fear about the way the dollar is handled by policymakers and the recent past. The example in the state froze a russian dollar assets because of the ukraine were on the one hand russia did invade a i sovereign nation and thats not okay but on the other hand money is money and its their money so when suddenly he can do that it causes holders of dollars to think they are by the grace of go i and maybe its time for me to hold the basket currency. Stable coins have been relative to the discussion because when governments want to be dollar iced every person in the world would prefer toly hold third was and dollars than any other currency so if you live in a country like ive been spending time in lately like brazil or argentina the day you earn your Wage Inflation starts the e like that and depending on whether its brazil or argentina or venezuela and starts to eat at it quickly or very quickly and if you can hold dollars instead of argentine pesos that would be a better strategy but the promise the Banking System doesnt support retail dollar deposit accounts so you cant get a bank account in sao paolo. What do you do . Wallet andur crypto use tokens. Thats the way for people around the world to use their wages in dollars which creates upward pressure for stable coin demand. Itsso likelyyearolds dollar something thats valuable. Im making two points. One is there is artificial settlement. Said the Banking System because we dont have banking that they could solve that but we wont and then theres demand from below global ruling for stable coins as an artificial status account. Those are secular and longterm. Its interesting the domestic demand and in the Global Demand arent necessarilyri the same ad in value propositions for these particular assets. Lets continue along those lines. Rajeev you are a venture investor and if obviously been at the forefront of a number of Consumer Protection issues with the cfpb. The cfpb. What do you number ones see when it comes to the question of uk and from a Consumer Protection standpoint what are you seeing from the technology and what are you seeing from the transactionh themselves that would lead you to kick the tires as to anything from safety and soundness to let me start by saying i question the abuse cases which candidly has been a frustration for 10 plus years. The relative is most of the places associated with stable coins today have a self referential quality to them that they have to do with the crypto business and once you exit the prayer of crypto harder to find two that said there were few things that im optimistic about. One ties to this notion of ubiquitous dollar d payment. It just so happens that are peripheral Banking System ties together a number of structural entities that arent necessarily logically compelled and it creates real problemscr for peoe within the u. S. It p was focused just on the u. Those privileged privileges of banks are for example access to the Payment System, access to choice of law and the great preemption for the Financial Bank preemption and liability. Banks are able to lever in a way that nonbanks are not to insure deposits. What that results in, because the commercial banking business i would argue principally a liability economic profit engine makes it hard to serve households that dont have much money and because banks have Privileged Access to payment it means that people that have lot of money find it hard to make payments and stable coins to me are a means m of delinking the access to leverage and the access to the Payment System and has impacts of giving realng benefit to 50 of the households in the country that pound for pound are not especially great at profit drivers and the like. One way of saying that is the smallma deposits customers arent necessarily profitable and to what degreee are they properly n incentive to create sufficient payment services. A longstanding question is where are thet incentives to preserve the little guy. Cbc is one potential solution. Its behind a value system and thereve been plenty o of people to quite literally waved the flag about cdc as a means of exporting not only u. S. Foreignpolicy influence as a means of not only helping to achieve a more effective Financial Inclusion but also exporting u. S. Values. Kristine i know you havent always been waving the flag but not necessarily for cdc. What are the tradeoffs in the kinds of things that come to mind when you talk about the policy conversation . It would help if i turned by mike on. Ive been thinking about cdc in the context of the global questions in domestic context and there there are allotted tradeoffs that havent been sufficiently look to especially because of the early phases. Weve been thinking about cdcs from a technological feasibility standpoint and an economic standpoint and i started to think about cbd sees in a critical economy. While im thinking about the implications domestically for the separation of power and begin about how he would shift power in a state and society and ive been skeptical of cbbc domestically and i want to qualify that. Maybe later we will have a chance to differentiate that from wholesale cbbcs. The reason im guarded in my viewpoint first theres this entire set of questions around Financial Market structural. We can anticipate what the reasonable degree of certainty that the introduction of a retail cbbc will intermediate the Banking Sector which is to say people are likely to swap their Bank Deposits for a cbbc to the extent that they are making a substitution. They know american still value cash for privacy related reasons. We know Central Banks are saying we arent going to get rid of your cash. We also know the way that Central Banks and are selling the projectld and saying cdbc would be safer for you because it doesnt come with that credit risk attached to a bank deposit. Some jurisdictions around the world might reiterate the cdbc to incentivize uptake so the point is we can expect some of the porsche populations will substitute Bank Deposits for a cdbc we know that Bank Deposits are anos important part of fundg for banks. So the biggerig question is what will be the effective at what will be the unintended consequencesst and will this mae loans more expensive and so on and so forth. I think cdbcs it been touted as Financial Stability enhancing to the extent that folks are worried about stable coin being the Financial Stability risk and perhaps cdbc might might be needed to do that but the jury is still out on that. We have got sort of a crisis so theres this whole ambiguity around Financial Market structure and the second thing that looked at is the question around individual economic rights and how many is really important part of the relationship between people and the state. Theres a question of who gets to issuen money . I love when conversations start with accounting. You can go back to the founding and see the deeplyrooted tradition in whats referred to as popular monetaryul sovereign. The state has a role in creating some sort of asset referenced money that can be used to actually put the privatesector plays a really Important Role in issuing money in particular to check the aggrandizement of state power. We know european models like to displace the current scene talking to things that are not good for the people so its been an important part of our the question is how the issuance of a cdbc will shift that balance of power in the tradition we encourages privatesector issuance of money to the state have a t model. And you think about we tend to hold onto this tradition that money is a form of inalienable property right. Its a programmable policy tool like we were talking aboutic before. Thats a completely different kind of monitor instrument and you might worry about the terms ofector in capturing the value behind payment. A state can do thatdi as well ad use the information behind the cdc to find policy programs. It would be interesting for policymakers but it does implicate somethingic really weighty for r individual economc ways in the course privacy is hard to find when we talk about retail cdbcs and right now seems like the technology is too mature to create a cache like privacy instrument consistent with banks. The last thing i will say here is the central bank independence. If you create a retail cdbc thats a liability in the Balance Sheets of the central bank that has the b. Match with more assets so students until the fed to go out and buy more assets and you open the door to pressure from the treasury manager roads fiscal discipline pressured by corporate funds and tech winners and. I see retail cdbc is a pandoras box. X. That was friendly. Sorry. As a question to make sure and to stand for is it your hunch that the problem with the retail of a cdbc is many of the problems you haveth identified e not easily remedied even through the finetuned policy implementation for its really a macroproblem thats hard to get yourself out a four visit something that i you think if yu get enough professors in the room you could figure it out. I think with the retail cdbc the problems are intractable because they are too many tradeoffs that one can reconcile while still protecting the appropriate balance of power between people in the state in between the separation of powers between congress and the executivera branch. I have lot more optimism and about more sense of given the potential consequences of introducing a retail cdbc to address thec policy platforms identified by the first panel at the beginning of our conversation with privatesector solutions and more lowhanging. Tackling the overgrowth and the incongruity and counterterrorism financing law. And thinking about the whole thing. The quick wrapup of our panel here, it seems to indicate a number. Cdbcs and stable quiz the primary question is when it comes to upgrading our Payment System. Nonetheless they tend to be a little bit sideline perhaps in part potentially because of internal incentive to notify the customer and in part because of thinking through what does it mean in terms of Bank Relationships with accounts in the Federal Reserve or another kind of question or another issue but it also impacts larger questions and ultimately cdbcs are intractably problematic so that publicly suggest wholesale cdbcs are the best direction. We have talked about and we can think about the newest iteration and we will get there gradually. Okay yesha i turned back to you. Cdbcs according to christine bar problem in the world for lawyers that can be solved. Stable coins are potentially a problem that can be addressed eventually. What do you think are the top three priorities that regulators and or policymakers should be thinking about if they are going to position these instruments it a way that can serve to constitute the arteries of our Payment System . Think about what christine has been saying. Im a little bit more polish in the sense that there are a number of cases for temple emerging in the cd pc that speaks to financial. Someone could look at sweden for what the swedes are worried about them why theyve been pushing this for temple is this imbalance between having huge amount a of cash and an overwhelming level of private money relative to the public. No one is using physical cash in sweden. They have switched. Theres a payment that everyone is using and it has become an economy dominated by private money. Thats the impetus for them to look at the cdbc really hard but theres this other balance at the way which is the Public Sector being crowded out of money creation and thats another thing to think about when they money creation is focused heavily in the Banking Sector and that the swedish my crash but on inclusionhe site that you think about the tradeoffs emerging inor favor f no access to any kind of private infrastructure the ability to go ahead and getva some amount of access to the system. The context that bermuda 500 worth in an account destabilizes the Banking System that allows these folks to be part of the company so theres this ability to harness the privatesector. In other words distribution can occur through private banks, nonbanks that are able to offer Addon Services that could enable those with a Financial Access to limited Financial Access attached to a statebacked claim. Their number of tradeoffs and i appreciate what youre saying here but theres this ability to look at Regulation Solutions that can thinknt about ways in ofwhich to leverage the financil stability risk for temple by introducing limits and so forth. So think about that and looking at the stable coins for anything. There has been a really cool conversation this morning and what are some of the steps we need to enable both Digital Private money and digital public money within our Payment System. First and foremost the discussion we were having the first time which is just being abler to ensure that stable cois issuers have access and these assets arere highquality which you guarantee you have the deposit their backed by real verifiable assets in that context. Obviously there is a complexity to that. Where are these assets going to be held next in the case of what we have today many are being held in banks which means the stable coin fundsng are being lt out and we saw what happened in that context. The risk migrated from the context of the Private Banking into the stable coin and that was the one question is high wall world still quite assets we held. What kind of licensing would enable that to happen so we can guarantee they are where they are supposed to be and the place they are supposed to be at and they are verifiable. The other thing we need to think about in our context is the federalism state versus federal. What is the bounce that exists here in terms of licensing stable coins on the stability site and what is the balance that we will aim for and what we are seeing today is a lot of activity around the stable coin regulation in new york wyoming and others to try to create a framework for stable coin issuance and thats another big issue here. So thinking through one of the cdbc as its making sure they are verified and how these assets are likely to be held that implicates access for stable coins issuers and three looking at her supervisor structure and to make sure we are going to havesuso the regimo balance the normal Payment System regulations we have had so far in state and federal with respect to stable coins and systemic legitimacy. A little bit of a different take. A little bored scalpel like argument then hammer. Brian speaking of hammers im reallyit curious your thoughts here not just on the stable coin and cbc in your thoughts on what optimal system should look like. So as we pivot from a conversation how you address Systemic Risk embedded in that conversation also how the industry itself on the private side should really make itself safer particularly for the general public. Im going to gather your general impression of the conversation to get your perspective. Im still back on the comment which ihi agreed with her personally at never heard that one of the risk of cdbcs or fiscal discipline. This is the United States in 2023 after all. Whatever is left. I have a number of thoughts that makes all the stuff safer and they are obviously heterodox because they got rejected on january 21 of 2021. My basic belief system is we have a fairly wellestablished Financial Regulation in this country that exist to manage activities. Financial services are inherently risky. The extension of credit implies a rate of default and why we are charting a just rates. Theres an interest. Rate risk and whole set of risks. Anytime we are involved in the credit operation itin also involves risk. Theres liquidity issues and all kinds of other Technology Issues and all of kinds of the things for that reason we created this funny thing called the bank charter and the bank charter exist to bring those recent side of the system that has a set of rules to it, capitol rules liquidity rules supervisory oversight and other things. The risky things can occur more safely. El oddly there does seem to be a view that certain kinds of risks have an unsupervised eras of things like stable coins one viewpoint has it shouldnt be inside the Banking System because that b would make tanks risky but i think this it has it backwards but i think this is the world turned on its head. The whole point of ourhe overarching financial sectors to provide supervision all liquidity capitol and Operational Risk management and a whole set of other things to take financial intermediation which is t inherently risky. When i was leading the occ we did a series of things. We set for example thanks have the authority to custody reserve assets is stable coin projects and banks haveec youality to see en bloc chains which are the Underlying Network of which they travel and the banks have the authority to stabilize crypto. We did that not because we are blind to the recent crypto or or stable coin we did so precisely because the activities are highly risky and not to be supervised. If there was anything underscored the need to do that it would be the trials going on as we speak in new york. The conversation had people in the industry every day is if there were markets rules the same as there were for equities andad the function of the separated sam could have never sold. Coin and we never be in this situation. I think we have this backwards. I think we know how to not perfectly. Reasonably manage financial risk in a way that doesnt blow up a system and its new formsms of payment are lending or deposit taking occur and where tyga. Stable coins of those or deposit payments so both of those two things it makes sense to deal with them the way we have we dealt with other kinds of things in the past. One thing i want to say is the idea that stable coin is not unique because they are nonbanking issues or whatever. Isnt all that and not in our system but there is a time when American Express didnt have a bank that issued travelersle checks. Ill buy you lunch. Weve seen this movie before. We used to have a different view of these things and block chains involved a special case. I dont think its ever a special case. Innovationva occurs human needs being server innovation at the same cuban maids. Those threehr activities are the core of the Financial System and we know how to regulate them. I think its a powerful metaphor which is when you have financial risk often enough its a question of sure that risk be regulated and how exactly do they contain that . For the panel and general is worth taking a step back because the same question as asked in a number of parallels sectors often tied to washington and id like to get anyones perspective forr any thoughts and well stat with you christine. In terms of how we draw the framework for things like d stae coin its pretty clear your thoughts on cdbc but there was associated with stable coins and other financial assets. We have sent these kinds of things should be brought into the bank or is it something that should be left outside of the Banking System . Sorry guys we should encourage this innovation in monetary ancient creation should be within the right perimeter. Its hard to increase legitimate surrounded things like stable coin so they can be a mainstream form of payment and thus every day people feel like the Consumer Protection pieces are there. To say regulate it like a bank. Its not like a bank. We know how a narrow banking works. Its possible to think about ringing payment that are not profit t makers. Not having to go to the retail space. It has a truth about it on the cdbc front which is if they if there were such a thing at work irrelevant it would be a movement of liabilities from commercial banks sector to the central bank which means unless you are going to say goodbye to the commercial credit quarter you have replacements and given examples of sovereign decisionmaking on credit example our finance industry im not super optimistic that can possibly be done. It would be a disaster. So, there. Obviously there should be standards and supervision with quality standards. You should have bank like Capital Requirements on the stable coin system. Its not going to be leveraged. You can have a tier 1 it would render the entire thing value destroyed for everyone involved. Frankly the bill that came out a committee in the house goes a long way and all those directions. As to whats been said here we need strong rules. We need to have standards and we need to make sure those standards are appropriate for the business is beingta conduct. This is not banking business and theres no reserve banking is happening here so that usual set we had to tailor and calibrate that the function iso stable con and coming back to what dan said on the earlier panel this is about to does folk should be allowed to continue on the network and how they do it and given access to infrastructure to do it as best as possible and safe as possible. It seems to be something as we aspire to as an economy in theory we should be able to get a sophisticated marketplace is able to tell the great regulation requirements and tailor them to the functions in the tool sets that companies are making to use that. When you look at stable coin and cdbc at the competition for money. Money is the one thing that everyone understands what you have or you dont have h it. Its the ultimate Consumer Product. When you think about what the Consumer Product should look like and where the demand comes from and what the product looks like there had been expressing questions in terms of how new kinds of products are created and consumers are able to voice their interests. Raj want to got back to you. Is there a way putting on your regulatory hat is there a way, is it up to entrepreneurs and Service Providers or are there ways in which consumers can influence how that is constructed and regulated . The former and not theme latter. They are not generated at a grassroots level. And they are a gnome things that we could do that would enable more innovation with respect to particularly low balance transaction accounts. People dont ignore the segments of customers because they are mean. Its because fraud costs a bunch of money. The effect is real and Customer Service is high and because the amount of transaction monitoring expense associated with small dollar accounts is a huge economic profitable ability. It would be closer to having a better and more consistent system. When you compare the challenges with cdbcs and stable coins and thinking about what the product should look like from a regulatory standpoint what are the first principals given the problems with cdbc and 40 start when you think of what the regulatory toolbox shouldul look like . Things that have been mentioned before in terms of standards and supervision for asset backing bitcoin i think our starting point. In terms of who should issue a stable coin license i believe the bill that came out at the house said a comprehensive regime and give the fed overriding authorities which seems like it might be m contentious on the state level that could ultimately be something that works pretty well and to parse out the differences between what stable coin is. I would agree thats a good starting point for who can issue the stable coin whether the redemption right to the holder is to go to the consumer ittection piece and to round out with the corollary question is the cdc space i do think theres optimism theres productive potential publicprivate innovation in the cross better wholesale phase which has suffered the next branding in the way of wholesale cdbcs because ultimately if what we are talking about is an improved Settlement System and way of token icing reserves in reserve 2. 0 to can sell faster oject worth pursuing although o i is to get to see proof that would speed up crossborder payments went to labell it. I think the jury is still out. Wholesale cdbc has promised and stable coin offers. Agreed differentiating [inaudible] the idea i of wholesale cdbcs tokenized deposits could in effect would run on wholesale cdbc rails of the ideas that the central bank would be issuing a reserve because wholesale cdbc will run between Financial Institutions eventually into the existing infrastructure that we more less pretty much have. The essential ideas that you art bringing b in commercial banks into the system and purchase providing a kind of settlement asset that can work on technology and be interoperable with ridges across jurisdictions because ultimately thats a way to figure out to make all of this interoperable technologic land legally. With two minutes and 222 seconds left. The first principle for stable coins and if you happen to have a thought or two on economic deposits now is the time. Breakages say whatever i want. Or that. If you give me 59 seconds of start by saying im rogers point about financial inclusivity ihe would argue with the recent stable coins did not become more widely adopted outside of crypto in this country is because her system works pretty well. You see mass adoption of stable coins in other parts of the world. If he went to argentinaa and saw with the environment looks like around stable coins in u. S. Dollars savings accounts they are growing. They are gigantic business. I would end by saying however better system is its good enough that you dont have mass demand. In terms of stable coins if you arent a fan of stable coins will you cant have is a monopoly on the Payment System. It is crazy depending on who you ask 50 or 100 billion Payment Company they have use for wells fargo to process their payments. If you dont like stable going to have tippy open banking and if you dont like open banking it off d except the availability of stable coins. I would posit it that way. What he said. Seriously . I want to reiterate we are living in a bubble year. We need to travel and went to see whats going on in other jurisdictions and seeee how much choice is encapsulated in a different payment choices of folks out that include stable coins to look at Payment World which is becoming far more inclusive than we could everom imagine. Folks living on the street are using uti and books are open to new payment environments. There is a pilot underway for people were paying for their gas. We are inn a bubble year and we need to look outside to see whats available to us and we are helping herself to helping that Payment System. Our Payment System frankly for the