Limo would have to turn. It gives you a different perspective and it is just driving straight down that street. Just making the turn off of harwood on to maine. Across the street from harwood and maine is dallas city hall. Which i would return to later , ratherht, but day than that night. I was set up and there was a woman who had across the with jfk a way head caricature. I went over and talk to her and told her that when the motorcade came by to be sure to have it straight up and hide. So that whenself they got there and they were waving, i waited until that caricature fit in to what it was doing and i made the frame. Frames. Ade two afterwards,ar and we were passed it. Once the picture was made, i was about six blocks from the Dallas Times Herald, which is where i was working for upi. I started running in the street to get there so that we could get the picture out. As it turned out, i had gone about maybe a half a block and this motorcycle copart run over the foot of a pedestrian, which turn the motorcycle over. So i had to wait until he got picked up and picked up the motorcycle. He left and then i could keep going because the streets were too full of people to try to run on the sidewalks. I ran up to the Dallas Times Herald and i got to the entry and i push the elevator and it about twome in minutes. I use the stairs and i ran upstairs and went into the newsroom. The newsroom had all of the people that were at their desk in tears, they were crying, heads down, i wrenched ray into the photo lab where i gave it my film and found out what had happened. I then went into my locker, got other gear that i needed the whole idea was the picture of him in the motorcade was going to be used clear across the whole front page of the Dallas Times Herald. Todd to everybody, found out exactly i gave my film to woody allen who is a photographer for upi. I headed towards the book depository, which was only two and a half blocks away, three blocks at the most. And when i gote to the book depository comma just across that depository, there were cops with Guns Everywhere pointing up at the window, putting up at the building. There were cops and newspeople standing in front of the building. Hunkered down looking, finally i stood up, grabbed my gear and said he will not shoot me, i will shoot the cops and ran across the street. There with the News Conference that cops are china have. Reporters were cops were trying to have, reporters were talking. It was from a man named temple, and he lived in a suburb of dallas. He called me to say that a police man was shot. I got a hold of a times Herald Reporter who was there and i said, lets go. Oak cliff was a baptist part of dallas. It was basically a crime free area, no alcohol, a lot of things were going on. I know how many cops had been killed down there. We got in his car, which was parked in the basement of the courthousety directly across the street from the book depository. Courthousestandby his body was gone. They were going to the car and there were neighbors and people looking all over the place. , i dont how many pictures, but i was the only photographer there. It is kind of hard to get the on a job if you are the only person there, but nobody was there. There was one television crew. The Dallas Police photographers were there. All of aoting, than sudden the radio began and they came on that they had the shooter trapped in the texas theatre, which is only two or three blocks away. We grabbed a car and headed for the texas theater. The car wasthere, pulling out and one of the cops that the reporter knew said, we just got a guy who killed a cop and shot the president. They were taking him to city hall. We dropped in the we jumped in the car and went straight to city hall. Hall outside of will fritzs office in homicide, which is where i stayed until alls walled was brought in ald was brought in. He was pointing at this mouth sore under his eye and his comment was, do you see what they did to me . To the homicide office, which is where he stayed. Police walked in carrying the gun overhead to get in. There were probably about 100 photographers and reporters in a hallway by the time. About an hour later, marina, the overdrive to go in the homicide office. We were then just waiting. Decideds herald and upi i should stay there to see what happened. Later that night, at the urging they took usks, down for a lineup. The thing that was very interesting about that time, that is when walter kong krite right walter con came on the air to announce kennedy was dead. The first picture they showed i got it back to the office, got had acess quickly and we good chance to beat whatever the ap was doing. That picture was use. I stayed in the cop shop. There was a press room down the hall and they told us they would have a lineup in the basement. They took us all downstairs and they brought all swelled. Swald the reporter asked him a question about shooting the president and he said, that is ridiculous. He was basically arrogant, but just saying those kind of things. Then they left, i went back upstairs and back into the Little Press Room, which was a two seat, for chair Little Press Room outside of will fritz is office. Fritzs office. Them up at 2 00 in the morning and questioning them, which they did not do. I was relieved the following morning and went back to the paper, then i went home. Was, i wasbout it supposed to be going to National Guard duty. Going and ing on decided, i really did not want to do that, my wife did not know where i was, she was up in the window looking at the kennedys coming by at a Department Store when they had been on main street driving by. Was. Id not know where i when the reports came out they do not know who was shot, how many people were shot, what was going on. , sitting there, uh, i sat on an, my bed and watch jack ruby shoot lee harvey oswald. , later on, i started going to Dallas County jail just about every day. As soon as the trial started i was there for probably 80 of covering thepent ruby trial, which was basically him being walked in and walked out from the courtroom. We put remote cameras on the wall so you could see him when he actually walked by. Most of the trial, of course, when the verdict was going to be announced, they only took if you pull. One of the things that they had used in the trial was this i had off oswald that him with his handcuffs. They printed it eight feet high. I dont know if there had to do inh it, but they used it defense for jack ruby. So her shorn was the pool photographer for the verdict. Also photographed, during the course of the ruby trial, i photographed sam ruby, his tother, his sister talking tommy. If i can jump in, it is sayresting we often that these news photos that we collect in our archive site evidence. There is a case of wanting your photos literally being evidence. As the have a sense motorcade photo appeared on tv of how historic that image would be . To heikes lot until i got the lobby and found out kennedy was shot. Immediately, mrs. Conley had told the president just before he got shot, see how much dallas loves you. They were always scared to go to dallas anyways. General walker had a lot of strong support, ultraconservative support in dallas and a lot of people he could have been involved in the shooting of the president. Things thatthe happen was somebody shot it will in the window at general walkers home on turner creek, which turned out to be lee. Arvey oswald you never know exactly what you are doing until you get to the point where, if the picture is there, you make it. At that was pretty interesting that might that that picture of mine was the first picture that most people had saw of the kennedys in dallas. Thats just a situation they were just driving by and i was in the right place at the right time. I did not get a chance to do anything like that. I photograph something hard to believe and i started my photography and president s of the United States and i was 13yearold and a sophomore in high school. When general eisenhower, who had been elect did and had been inaugurated in october of 1953, he landed at shulman air force which may have been by that time. Knew he was coming and they built this huge banner that said welcome ike. He came in this oldsmobile convertible, bareheaded, he was waving to the people that came by. The school camera. I was working for the Celina High School yearbook for two weeks. I had to learn basically how to use the camera and what to do with it. It was a super d with a hood on it. In the hood and it was a reflex camera that would get you through the lens. You did not have a lot of opportunities because you had to pull dark sites to get the film. It also had two shutters that had a focal point shutters. You had to make sure the shutters were open when he made the picture. I got one picture of him waving. It is the only picture that i made. Of course it was used later on in the High School Paper and the year but, but it was used in a lot of places later on. I did not realize when i photographed eisenhower in 1953 that i would than the rest of the president s through barack obama and harry truman. Point did you know that that is what you wanted to do . Mr. Heikes right after i did the eisenhower picture, it worked for me and i might as well stay with it and see what i can do. It became a little bit interesting about how i finally got there. I went to kansas state, i had a degree in technical journalism. Kansas state has produced a great number of very good photographers. Kansas state does not offer a course of any kind in photography. The way you learned to be photographer at kansas state was working for the airport. The way you learn to make pictures is to make pictures. That is what i did. Was at the Kansas City Star journal, ihutchinson was screening i would shoot people on campus and then transmit them to upi. I would do that as late as possible. The first thing i would do is make all these prints and put them on buses. I would send them all to the in kansas into the ap city. After i know that they were on the bus and were on their way, i would then transmit the picture at upi. I was making all kinds of prince in doing this stuff. At the time we got paid it was five dollars a picture. It was not like you were getting rich at five dollars a picture. That is what we got paid in those days. It was fine, i really loved it, i love shooting football games, the basketball games, and shooting features around kansas state in order to send pictures away. That is what it was about. From dallas to madison was madison, wisconsin because felix mcknight, who was a publisher of the alice times herald had decided that since i worked for upi, contracted to the times herald if i have made a picture of jack ruby shooting lee harvey alls well, or that he works for upi and call it they cannot Dallas Times Herald full photo. They had a meeting with the upi people. Piey went we went out to u and they fired us all. Two days before that, the chief photographer at the Dallas Times Herald called me into his office and says, if you are not working for upi, would you work for me . Of course i had no idea at all why i would not be working for upi. John, i wouldre be glad to. So it turns out, i got fired by upi, went back and told john i was fired and he said i had a job. The next morning i was working for the Dallas Times Herald, which i did for about eight anths until upi said we have opening in madison, wisconsin. That is when i went to madison. That was about 1954 . Mr. Heikes yes i went there in 1964. Mentioned photography of a couple of the president s. Let me ask you, we have another one of your photos in the exhibit of president jimmy carter. It was at camp david. What was that experience light . Like . I. Heikes on the day that happen, my wifes birthday is the 12th of september. Im pretty sure this was the 17th of september. Upithing was, john was a photo editor and photographer who worked the weekends. This was a saturday or a sunday. He called and said, they are coming down from the mountain and theyre going to have a press conference in the east room, we can only have one sotographer in the east room go. So i grabbed my gear and my stuff and headed to the white house. Finally they took us into the east room. When we got there, it here we there, one person for one organization, Time Magazine had to, ap had to, Newsweek Magazine had to. The thing about it, the israelis, the egyptians, they all had two or three. I was literally the loan person for upi. When i was standing there looking at what was going to i decided that i did not want to stand straight in the middle because when they signed the accords, and when they got together, they would be way too far apart. So i did what i usually did and i moved away far down to the end of the press riser so i can look back. When they signed it, they were kind of compressed a little bit. Came and the embrace that wasg standing in front of the israeli flag and they were standing in front of the egyptian flag and carter was right beside it. Some of the people later on who had been in the middle had threeway handshakes in the middle, which got some play, but my picture got the most. A news photographer contest and picture of the year contest for general news. It, but ieople made was the only one that had the angle that put it together and made it work, which is always what i try to do. I try to figure out as you do it, all these photographers to worked at the white house in washington will all tell you, the biggest thing was figuring out where you have to be at the right time with the right lens in your hand to do it you have to do, which is what we all did. One of the things that strikes me about this story is, i am sure some of the folks who were in that room, we have the collections here too. How competitive was your relationship with other journalists . Mr. Heikes competition is what it is all about. We have people here that i competed with that did not work for the services i did at the time, but i worked for upi. The ap photographers were very competitive. Some were for magazines and newspapers. To get myoal was picture on the front page of the washington post, it did not matter if they had 100 . I wanted to get my picture of all of these things. That was exactly what it was all about. You were there to try to outshoot everybody there. If you happen to be on a job and the picture you in was in the picture of next day and you werent, you would congratulate them and say you did brilliant, you did a nice job yesterday and it was a really nice picture. Under your breath you would say you better bring your lunch because it will be a long day today, which is what it was all about. Bitet step forward a little and talk about you putting your archive here at the briscoe center. How did that come to be . Mr. Heikes it came to be because they donated their. Rchives when stanley chaddock was a photographer for upi who worked later on for look magazine and made all of the behindthescenes kennedy pictures and john john under the desk, and all of these things. Stanley had been with upi for quite a while then he went to look magazine. While he was at work magazine he worked with kitty kelly who had written a lot of books and what have you. They were also a couple. I dont know what kind of a couple, but they were a couple. The thing about it is, i was at u. S. News and report, which is who i was working for at the time and kitty kelly came in and hopkins,lenny jeanne who was the secretary of the publisher of u. S. News and report. She asked me to come up and kitty kelley said, what should i do with her . We have all of the family images, what should i do with them . I said you ought to do a book bodythen donate them to some that can archive them, handle them for you that is not some photo agency out there trying to sell everything. That is what this is about, donate something here or they can archive it to the point where it will be preserved. If you have a flood, if you have a tornado, the odds are that the images will be fine here. Fors at kansas state theredth anniversary for school there and i wanted to know why i would not donated to them and it was because they did not have the archival facilities do it. He did not have the facilities and they got gordon parks archive from its family. He had great movies and show pictures and then they had a flood and the pipes burst. A lot of film, movies and images were ruined in the flood because they have those real old, Old Buildings that are there that will that were built 150 years ago. Their infrastructure does not work too well and it was one of those things that i personally cannot see giving it to kstate because i did not know what they would really do with it. I knew what they would do with it here. Is veryy wife, who active in what i am trying to do and getting this done, i said, i do not want to die and leave the stuff for you here in 60 boxes and you will have the foggiest idea of what to do with it. One of the other things that i think is important is that we do have all of these contemporaries, all of your colleagues. What is the value of having all of these materials in one place . Mr. Heikes that is exactly what it is all about. Somebody wants it and they can compare it, they can look at it and they could see what people can user what they want to use. Is strictly what the center has gotten. They have gotten so many images and they can decide which ones they want and which ones they do not. They do a good job of archiving this stuff. Allison hadnt spent five hours going to boxes in my house in five days, it had been crazy and i kept sending her more and more stuff. And myot want to die wife and kids were not have a foggy idea of what to do with it. That is something that has to be done. Something that allows photographers in our business, now they dont know what they will do with the stuff. I wish just talking to did swansons wife and i have no germane for 30 years or more and she says the same thing, we have all these boxes and we have to pick what we are going to do in order to get them how. Butarchive is here also, the point was, it had to be done, but you cannot just leave it for your kids. Hey really have no idea the kind of know what you did with your life, but they dont know what to do with the stuff that they have. Your career is an amazing example of the presidency. You have for bethel of these historic events. You were there to capture the evidence. Why a little bit about photos are such important historic evidence . Mr. Heikes because they c