Lincoln quote. Because on todays topic as with most subjects, Abraham Lincoln expressed himself better than almost anyone. And as he said in 1849, the better part of ones life consists of his friendships. Well, we want to look today as what, if anything, he meant by that, how sincere he was or how well he understood his own commitment to and concept of friendship. And i have a group of very accomplished friends to explore that topic with me. Chuck strosier, who has spoken at the Lincoln Forum who brings his experience as a psychoanalyst, psychobiographer, a onetime resident of springfield. By which i mean he knows about springfield. And of course as an authority which is the subject of his latest book on the complex relationship between Abraham Lincoln and his only really close friend joshua speed. Well hear more about that in the panel. Ed edna green, who has written and lectured here on the subject of lincoln, emancipation, race, equality and africanamerican life and lives. We welcome her perspective as well. Another experts on lincolns years is a friend who has written writtena, and another expert who youre familiar with his expertise and republican politicians, particularly the war governors of the civil war era we plan to probe further, the new Standard Authority on lincoln and the war governors steven engels. So welcome to all of you [ applause ] so the subject is lincoln and his friends, lincoln and friendship. We just heard the quote, the better part of ones life consists of friendships. And yet over the years a good many of lincolns friends successively, that is his earliest friends would complain when he moved onto another level of society, and it happened frequently, would complain that lincoln tended not to retain his old friends but actually tended to discard them. To springfield he moved as a young man, and one might say he shed the salem friends. And when he left springfield he left his springfield friends behind once he moved to washington. If you take the circuit writing lawyer, and ill gile about this in a moment, his circuit writing chum, lincoln abandoned his most faithful friends even before he left springfield reluctant to give them jobs and spoils once he was elected president. Let me quote the coowner of the Chicago Tribune who expected more awards than he received and who blurted out after election when lincoln seemed less friendly than before, we made abe and by god we can unmake him. So what do we make of this . One more quote. Leonard sweat, another friend of lincolns who wrote some of mr. Lincolns friends insisted that he lacked the storing attributes of personal affection which he ought to have exhibited. What do we think . How good a friend was Abraham Lincoln, and what do we make of this testimony that he tended not to store longstanding friendships . And we should start with illinois years so lets start with chuck and guy if we can. Interesting. Is this on . It seems to be theres two questions of how good a friend was he and then the examples that you gave where friendships didnt last and sort of starts at the back of my story with speed, as lincoln would say ass backwards. But the way in which speed served such a crucial function for him was far and away his best friend and nurtured him through his deep struggles for nearly three and a half years when they slept together, and then speed got married and moved to kentucky, got married. And in the two months leading up to the actual wedding theres an extraordinary series of letters that some of you have heard me talk about. And culminating in the letter when speed actually consummated the marriage and roof didnt fall in and he writes lincoln two days before, and lincoln writes his hand is still shaking ten hours later, still trembling. Well, what happened was the marriage was consummated, so he kind of vicariously worked things through. But it was the climax of the relationship between but they started quarreling over some cases in the 1840s that speed was handling for lincoln. And i think what he was able to work through with this friendship vicariously allowed for him to both return to marry, return to his path of love and marriage and eventually children and growth and healing his underlying depression. But also speed didnt matter anymore. So he moved beyond him and the close texture of their friendship ended at that point. Yeah, i want to add to that, though. I think that this is rather harsh on lincoln, but i think the only friend that he had that was an unconditional friend that didnt have some ulterior motive for forming that friendship was speedy. It came at a time in his life where he needed a friend. There was no giveandtake. Speed couldnt do anything particularly for him, so that makes him unique as far as im concerned. My affection for lincoln in writing my book which becomes very much on his relationships in the circuit, i find that i admire him more but i like him less. He was always, in my view, looking for a friend who could help him. And to start with the classic, his closest friend is david davis the judge. Well davis was the judge, so you would be friends with him if you could be. And david himself very shortly after lincolns death sent a letter saying lincoln was a peculiar man. He thought only of himself, he never confided. And all these Circuit Associates say the same thing. And marys family says that he was a cold man, he showed nee emotion, he didnt care about anybody but himself. In all of that, though, i rationalize from his Opening Statement when he ran for the legislator in 1832, and he said im not quoting it precisely, but this is the gist, all men are said to have their own peculiar ambition. In my case i want to do everything i can do be so highly esteemed. I think he was on a mission from day one not to be president but to be somebody. And friendship can be a bit of baggage if you have relationships you have to tend to to the same extent theyre tending to you. Except you must consider that he saved our nation with this focus. And so perhaps it was worthwhile that he had that attitude. Edna . I think its problematic when we talk about lincolns friendships without defining what friendship is and what it means in the 19th century and a complex person like lincoln. So he has many personal acquaintances, i think. Some of them closer to hill than others and in various categories. Im reminded of david donalds book. I think it was called we are lincolns men or Something Like that. It was written many years ago. And he talks about the various categories that these people fit into. And so i think before we can even decide how friendly he was he was friendly to everyone, it seems. But clearly there are degrees of friendship that he expresses with people in washington. Let me add to that. I think of all the governors who had any relationship beyond, you know, an acquaintance relationship would be richard yates. And i think yates, they went back a few years in their past. And i think when yates becomes governor the same year that lincoln becomes president its interesting that yates reaches out to lincoln to read some of his, you know, attempts at writing an inaugural speech, and at one point he feared if he were being honest with yates, it probably wasnt a very good document and he would take offense. Show he resisted that. But i think as the war went on, yates believed that he could use his relationship with lincoln, being from illinois, being a person who was perceived to have had perhaps more than acquaintance with lincoln. But i would agree that once lincoln leaves springfield among the 59 or at least the governors who make their way to washington, its really nothing more than acquaintance that they really share. And even john andrew, im working on a biography right now and john andrew is among those that make repeated trips to washington. And hes probably among the three or four that see lincoln the most during the civil war. And even though theyre very different political leaders, i think they had a tremendous respect for one another. But and i dont think its extended beyond anything more than just an acquaintance. Let me flip the question for everyone to have a go at. So im accepting all the Different Things that youve said, which almost add up to the same thing, there were degrees of friendship. They were degrees of acquaintanceship and political alliance. He was not on the circuit as a younger man he was seeking friendships that would benefit him politically. The great exception is josh speed, but even that fated by geographical separation, opinions over slavery or maturing and other things that may have divided them. So my question is what was there about lincoln that so magically and so continuously attracted men as friends, acolytes, admirers of he was never short of circles of people who, you know, moth to flame, admirers. So what do you think . Chuck, we can start with you again. First of all, theres a context, which is that the separate fears, and i think women moved in the females sphere and the men moved in the male sphere. And that was a very important difference. And in that male sphere lincoln was a mans man, and he was greatly admired, real tall, greatly athletic, incredibly strong. Spieths description of him was almost gushing. He used to ride and also judge gander pulling, which is just this outrageous sport where you string a goose on a rope and then you goose his neck and the horse would ride at full speed and try to rip the neck off. And spieth felt that was great, it was a real manly thing to be very good horse back rider so i think what brought respect from other men was this physical respect. He had a real presence and that comes across indirectly. Theres a curious thing about peoples mens he was not friends with women, he tended to have some friends that this is browning, for example, who were older married matronly figures and after he married mary and they started having children he treated her like an older married matronly figure but they were the exceptions. He moved in a male world which was characteristic of the time but men who were friends with lincoln tended to experience him as their best friend. He had a way of drawing people into his orbit that made them feel special in that context even if it didnt really last, if it didnt even if the friendships didnt necessarily have legs and they might be not exploitative but manipulative. I would go so far as to call him a jock. He was a great athlete. You see the things he could do. Theres an account of a foot race he ran in front of the courthouse in urbana the diary entry of the relatively illiterate carpenter wrote this said a beat. So he her runs a foot race down main street in urbana. His wrestling is well known. Theres an event that occurred in monticello, illinois, where they had a butchers ax which was a relatively small instrument he and this others lawyer had a gentlemans bet lets see if we can do warmups. The other lawyer winds up and throws this thing and it goes a fair distance so lincolns throws it the same distance and lincoln throws the thing, you can tell how far because he throws it into a creek at the bottom of the courthouse. Ive measured. Its like 100 yards and i cant imagine anybody being able to do that but these are accounts that he did this so thats an example and these things go theres constant references to his athletic skills. The long jmp, there is a half africanamerican half native american in clinton, illinois that was the champ and everybody nobody could touch this guy in the long jump. He did beat lincoln but just barely. So these accounts are repeated. He had such tremendous charisma as a person and such warmth as a persona that people overlonged this detachment of his that they all talk about but oh, thats lincoln, let him go so i think that had a lot to do with it. We could all buy it if it wasnt for the greased goose story. [ laughter ] gander pulling. He was selfeffacing. He was not a threat to men. He was not the most attractive person in the world. He was folksy. I think they looked at him and saw him as someone he didnt have to compete with but i dont thinkeer men felt they had to compete with him and so as guy indicated he was able to make people feel at home so if you have an athlete its easy to be accepted by the average man. The interesting thing about lincoln, i got to see him throw all of the governors who would come to washington and see him for the first time and even the secretaries who would join and ill give you one. John andrew frequented washington and he would always take the same secretary and the secretary would come back and tell the other secretaries about lincolns rugged features. He just looked immense, hes tall, he looks just fierce. And they were always impressed by his disarming, effacing sort of, you know, attitude towards andrew and then towards the end of the year andrew brings on board a new secretary and hes anxious to go to washington in the summer of 1864 and they spend probably about an hour with lynch con which was rather unique and within the first few minutes the secretary wrote this is a great story. He was struck number one by the physical appearance of lincoln how he looked which contrasted sharply with how he acted and he would say in andrews presence and you have to remember andrew is probably less than 59, 51 and lincoln is 64 and the one thing that struck this secretary is he says lincoln looks like a bean pole and i was so amazed at how far under the chib of Lincoln Andrew came up to. He looked like a Little Orange compared to lincoln yet lincoln understood the difference in their physical appearances and managed to arrive at a conversation that was in no way demeaning or disrespectful to someone who were was more portly, shorter and a person who struggled with his appearance and the secretary was struck by lincolns manner, his charisma and so for me it was the perceptions of lincoln through the eyes of governors and their secretaries who would log in those experiences. One thing i would add is ive known politicians and elected officials and there is an increased yearning to be their friends or to be in their glow when they achieve power and lincoln was pretty grand and selfconfident as president and maybe even in his final days in illinois he was quite a presence and people wanted to be part of the political march as well. No great man was ever more humble. I want to Say Something and one of the things i stumbled on, its not as no one ever noticed it but no one ever did anything with this, lincoln and spieth moved in together on april 15, 1837, the day he moved from new salem to springfield and this wonderful story of arriving on the store and he wants to buy a bed for 17 and spieth says well, i have a big bed upstairs and a lot of room, stay with me and he drops this back down and he says well, im moved. And he stayed there they slept together for the next three and a half years in the same bed which was another question we can get to but he became undoubtedly his closest friend but the openness took from midapril in 1837 until some time in the fall of 39 that their closeness plower ed both spieth and lincoln opened up to the male community and started what is a salon and it started in the late fall of 1839 and later in writing letters to herndon said every night the young lights of springfield would come and they all came only because of lincoln but they were steven. A douglas and speed would make the fire in the back of the store and the end of the day and the the leading sbi intellectuals in illinois if not the country were of different political persuasions would gather and come because of lincoln you couldnt talk politics. Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln and Steven Douglas sitting in the back of a store and not talking politics . Well, they did. So they agreed to hold an eight day debate in the local presbyterian and speed remembereder have by a team. So whats so interesting in this context is that people were so drawn to lincoln. He would endlessly tell stories, he was funny, he could listen to people, he could talk and this orbit, this incredibly male orbit that gathered in the back of speeds store. It was a group of the leading young men in springfield meeting in the back of speeds store while the coterie, the high faluting coterie med in the edwards home and played violins and dance and edwards greeted their guests in french. That was a few blocks away in the edwards home so you had this contrast between the femme in the culture coterie versus the salon thats meeting in the back of speeds store because of lincoln. And yet mary calls it a coterie at one point. She says in our little coterie in springfield my giant stood heads above the little giant or something derogatory. One thing chuck and guy i have to ask you and anybody else who wants to weigh in. Theres a lot of mythology about lincolns relationship with Steven Douglas. They were friends but different politically. They had Great Respect for each other even though they were separated by different view points on slavery extension. I happen to think they werent friends but id love to see what you think. I would say not. I think lincoln had great contempt for douglas. Douglas wanted to find a way to rationalize not offending the south. He i wish i could quote the letter, theres a letter he writes, i cant remember to whom he lwrote it but it was like hee i am not doing very much and heres douglas in the United States senate, hes one of the leading politicians and goes on and on expressing envy of douglas so its like the old without judas would there have been a jesus . Would douglas, would there have been a lincoln . I think not. Not because of friendship but because a fair amount of contempt lincoln had for him. I want to weve touched on lincolns friend shship or lack friendships with women. I want to talk to edna about the his ability or inclination to have relationships with people of color. We all know the extraordinary quote that Frederick Douglass remembers after practically having to push his way into the white house for the postsecond inaugural reception lincoln sees him in the distance and says there is my friend douglass, theres no one whose opinion i value more than yours which douglass thought of as a great moment in social history. But was it bluser . Was it real tell us what you make of the friendship or the relationship between Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln. First of all, the men only met three times and only briefly. I dont see how that develops into a friendship but they were personally acquainted. Theres a difference there and when lincoln refers to douglass as my friend he refers to a lo