Mark bowden author of hue 1968. What was it . Its a city in vietnam, third vietnam aty in south the time, and the scene of bloodiest e biggest battle fought in the vietnam war, or what the vietnamese call the american war. You know that a lot has been written about this so how did differently . It this is the first time that a have list like me would access to vietnamese participants. So i was able to tell the story the eyes of both the american soldiers and marines who fought and also the vietnamese, vietcom, north Vietnamese Army, and i think by, there e has gone is a lot of documentation in the hanoi, as well as in bethesda, maryland, and also the records of the johnson administration, all of william papers are there. Johnsons National Security really, staff papers, so 50 years is kind of a good time, go back, because the record is established and yet he participants for the most alive. E still tet ll, up till the offensive, which this was part of, in january of 1968, the administration and general westmoreland had, i think, argued to the american that this war was winnable. Westmoreland came to washington in 1967 and gave a he outlined, you know, the various phases of the entering, said were i believe it was phase three, where we will begin to withdraw American Forces very soon. The impression given was that this war was well in hand and winning d states was it. The tet offensive in this battle of hue i think administered a shock to the american public. It was not just hue, it was a south other cities in hit. Nam that were hue was the place where the nva the whole took over city and the month it took to win it back was reminiscent of of battles fought until world war ii or korea. And reports mages from that fighting really changed a lot of the americas the war, i think Movement Really picked up steam after the at the time fine, it was apparent to attention that the administration and the military been lying to the american people. People. Which one would you pick that you remember the most andy . Of the most Vietnamese Army viet cong . Either one. Character first you meet in the book, was fascinating to me because she my age, che thi mung, she familylle lang girl, his had been fighting for independence for generations. Her grand father, her father had fought with the vietnamese. Er older sister had joined the viet cong had been killed. There had been waterboarding by Vietnamese Intelligence Service so she was tremendously, i think, committed, idealistic young woman who found herself right in the middle of the battle. Initially spying for the viet cong in the city and eventually fighting. For beginnin definitions wt live through this, vietcom versus the North Vietnamese differs, what was the difference . Vietnam was y of divided in 1954 when the french left into north korea and south korea. North korea, the capital of hanoi, had its own army. Vietnamese north army in. South vietnam, a guerrilla movmd movement allied with the north. That was the viet cong, so the iet cong was a Guerrilla Force heavily aided and connected with the north Vietnamese Army. Vietnamese he north army was the regular military. To j. T. Che thi mung. Her . Did you meet i met her in hue where she optometrist. An she rode up to meet me on a motor scooter which is the means in transportation for vietnam for people in the cities. Extremely candid in her conversations with me. Been wounded in this battle, after the battle was over she continued to serve with viet cong and they trained her as an optometrist and then after the war k in hue as an optometrist. Er daughter is maybe 20 or 21 years old. Very interested in coming to study in the United States. Lot about her that was surprising to me. This was not the image that i in my mind of the viet cong . What had she done . In january 1968 . 11 village art of girls who would sit on the idewalks in hue selling these conical hats, small items on the sidewalks. Just s from a village outside of the city. In the months before the tet she and these other spy were commissioned to n the american outposts in southern hue and also the and she run compounds, would move around in the day keeping her eye on how many people were coming and going what kind of weapons they had. What their schedules were. Hen guard changes happened, things like that. And in the evening, she would go had and report what she learned to her leader. Arun . Need a definition on the army of the republic of vietnam. Army. Vietnamese so what was the atmosphere at that time both in this country vietnam, how long had the why, een going on and again, was hue so significant . The atmosphere in vietnam war which had been going on for the vietnamese almost without interruption since the early 1950s, and for americans, which was hue we had heavily invested forces kind of rs earlier was at a stalemate. Believed stmoreland that the viet cong were ncapable of any kind of major offensive. That the most they could do would be to attack american perimeter, sort of in the far rural area. Highlands or tral paddies. Ce the southeast government was a tremendously unpopular one in but was being sort on life support with american aid. With half a know, million american troops in south almost become an american colony. North vietnam was battered. United states had been heavily bombing in and around hanoi, the capital, and along the ho chi minh trail and they by it and it had slowed their ability to mount in the south. O the war was at a kind of stalemate. Hue was kind of an oasis in this that it is the traditional capital of the its where am, inside the citadel, which is a huge fortress which forms the half of the city is the palace, the old site emperors reign, so it a cultural and Religion Center for centimeter. War. D been bypassed by the there hadnt been any real fighting in the city other than the saigon regime cracked down on buddhist protest as few earlier the city had been fairly quiet. How close to the North Vietnamese border is hue . Its in central vietnam. If you look at vietnam, its an elongated country thats pinched at the center, almost as if someone had a belt around its tightened it. Its only 10 miles from the sea to the laotian border. At the time, im not sure how many miles but my guess would be something on the order of maybe a hundred, 150 from the demilitarized zone. How Many American soldiers were there in january of 1968 . In hue itself very few ecause as i said the city itself had not been the scene of fighting, there was a base notice southern part in the h was southern part of hue, there were marines an Army Officers who work with south Vietnamese Army units. On the day this battle broke ut, there were more americans in the compound, because it was the tet holiday. A lot of troops had gone home holidays and the american advisers had gathered their e a few days with countrymen and their friends in this little compound in southern hue. You dedicate this book to roberts. Who is he . Gene roberts at the time was new reau chief for the york times in vietnam, and he plays a role in the story, an one. Tant later in life, he became the ditor of the philadelphia enquirer. He hired me in 1979. Terrific e as a newspaper editor who later went on to become managing editor of the new york times. Youth, he was a terrific reporter, covering the in the ghts movement south and then later, you know, as a reporter in vietnam. 1993 at the in talking press club about the hue battle. Heard vague reports of trouble in hue. I made my way there by truck and helicopter and found that the heldes were surrounded and on two blocks of the city. He viet cong and the north Vietnamese Forces held on to the rest. Ach day, the marines were reinforced by fresh units. They retook two or three blocks of the city. To lose most of it again during the night to enemy troops infiltrated them to houses during the darkness. 10 days for the marines to get 10 blocks or so from their headquarters compound. What did he have to do with you writing this book . I didnt th is, know i mean, i had known gene for years but i didnt know of reporting from vietnam, and i ran into him up in new york at a emorial service for colleague of ours, richard cramer, and gene hadnt seen me and he ber of years asked, what are you working on . I said im Getting Started on a hue andut the battle of he said i was there. I was obviously not in attendance at that ceremony about it so i flew down to North Carolina here gene lives and spent a couple of days and he told me his stories of traveling to the city at the beginning of the how he covered it and how he reported it. Coincidentalit was and serendipity. Alive . E still yes. He divides his time between bath new york city. Hes sort of half carolinian and half new yorker. To who you talked to, among the North Vietnamese viet cong. Who from North Vietnam did you sit down with, where and who was most memorable . Isi think the most memorable professor, his e is he was a buddhist student at the time, who had been part of he buddhist uprising against the government in saigon and had been chased from the city during the crackdown. He had joined up with the north Vietnamese Forces as a a prop paagandish. Felt exiled from hue which been his home. When the city was taken, he was first troops that the ed into the citadel, big fortress in northern hue. He became responsible, he was working as what i conczar. Recruit citizens, support the insurrection, to set up a revolutionary government in hue and also to root out those for the south any amese government in capacity and arrest them. Turmd out to be execution. A student at hue university. Actually, he hadnt quite he ted hue university, and was involved with smuggling city before the attack. Attack. He had published a studentrun newspaper for a militant by the sudden presence of american in the city. Ops ended up being one of the principle leaders of the north forces as he marched and like che thi mung, he was a Person Society up to administer the local government and also had responsibility for deciding who and punished. Ted 1967, on november 17, president johnson made a speech context, into the right , obviously, before january of 1968, heres what johnson had to say about 1967. R in november were making progress. Ere pleased with the results that were getting. We are inflicting greater losses taking. Re by any all perfect means. There are a good many days we et a cminus instead of an aplus, but overall were making progress. Were satisfied with that progress. Allies are pleased with that progress. That i know inry that area that is familiar with thinks its ing absolutely essential that uncle word and stay there until we can find an honorable peace. Know now, you o 1967, to that speech in whats your reaction . My reaction is that johnson sails mode because he could feel the war getting away from him. Around that time that Robert Mcnamara, his second of defense, who had been one of the architects of the war, serving as secretary of defense for had turned nnedy, against the war himself. Nd he had begun sending president johnson detailed secret memos saying we cant win this war. Not going well. Regardless of what the military commanders are saying, you know, war is mired and we need to start thinking about how to get out. And what i describe in the book press conference and it was held at the time that president johnson had brought eneral westmoreland back to washington as part of like a relations ng Public Campaign to shore up support for he war, because i think president johnson felt that that support was eroding, and he had stepped out from behind the podium. Him, you know, leaning down from the podium. Like n was famous for cornerback people and has a big cornering people, and he was a big guy. He got to you, the more adamant he was to convince of whatever he was trying to sell. A president in full sails mode lecturing the assembled press why it was important for the United States vietnam and how well things were actually going. Few days later, general westmoreland, we have some video about moreland talking the atmosphere again. This is 1967, november 1967, the actually, and again, tet and hue was in the early part of 1968. Lets watch general westmoreland. The war has become enormously expensive to him. Hes had to almost fully mobilize his country. Made a Major National effort. To sending his best leadership to the south and supplying them, which has been a major undertaking, he has nothing to show for his investment. Es not won a single victory in the south during the last 1 1 2 years. Obviously, talking about ho chi minh. At thati minh with you, point, i think in hanoi, but he was going back and forth from to china where he was under medical care because he, he was point, was not no longer really a significant party in the communist hanoi. Ill and he was the you will ultimately by more hard line elements in the government. He had been campaigning for ietnamese independence his whole life, toward the end of his life retained a long perspective. Believed that the first task of the revolution was to win over the people of the south, he resisted the idea that win the south militarily. The o he was regarded by Party Leaders as someone who was war. Of too soft on the its interesting, though, that hile general westmoreland was making that speech, the North Vietnamese and the viet cong into their preparations for the tet offensive, and in hue alone, amassed 10,000 troops to take over the city without the south vietnamese government or the american so, you know, westmoreland was an interesting character. Think he really believed the things he said, but he was clearly out of touch with what was actually happening in the country. Lets go back to the young mung. Hi she was 18 . 18 years old. Yes. Remember the viet cong, the in the south, where was she a the day that hue became battle . Living in she was hue because the river squad, which was the group of girls who ad been recruited to spy had been placed with families in the city, so she was living in a neighborhood, and she had spent that day spying, doing the ordinarily did, and then because there was part edly a truce on the of, you know, the south vietnamese government and the orth vietnamese government, hey would call a truce for the et holidays, there was kind of a Party Atmosphere in the city because of tet. So she got dressed up in high movie with out to a some friends and on her way back was told, you need to get back your village, pronto, and lead these hundreds and hundreds vietnamese soldiers, this one unit that was going to move into southern hue, they north, or from far away areas, they didnt know heir way around the city so at that point hue had become a guide for the forces that were city. Rating into the so if you had been in hue in you ry of 1968, what would have seen on the day that the North Vietnamese and the viet in . G came it happened in the nighttime. Ould you have probably been awakened by the sound of gunfire. Lthough because it was a tet holiday there were usually a lot of fireworks and things so maybe initially you would have felt a lot of ust celebrating going on out there. If you were familiar with the sound of gunfire, you would have recognized Something Big was going on, and if you looked out have seenw, would you masses of enemy soldiers, North Vietnamese and viet cong the streets of the city, and basically taking neighborhood in the city. Whats tet . The lunar new year. Celebrated as the major holiday vietnamese calendar. So the whole place shuts down week. Bout a families get together. Much as americans do at time. Mas its a tradition to cut Cherry Blossom branchs off and bring houses. O the its similar to the christmas tree, and, you know, they repare big feasts that sometimes go on for two or three days. How Many American marines killed . In the battle, 250 were killed. Ost of them were marines but there were a sizable number of army cavalry, troopers, who were just outside the city. News story back in of , that you can see some the destruction in hue. At the end of january, two units of North Vietnamese infantry infiltrated the city an captured the citadel. How much support they received from the population is impossible to estimate. The price of that support has been the almost total estruction of the city and the deaths of nearly 4,000 civilians. But many survived humbler houses didnt. Without a roof to keep out the of homeless continue to cross the river in on the south ge bank. It is the last journey for some. Woman, ers, like this wounded and perhaps the only survivor of her family, life have come toeem to an end. The population northern this intrusion in that way . Hanoi Party Leaders in for the most part. Nd those who believed their propaganda, but this was departure for of the Party Leaders in ho chi minh. Ho chi minh had a better sense south vietnamese people than the people who were really running the party at that time. But the word for what they did called et offense was general offenses general uprising, and the theory was vietnamesehese north troops and viet cong moved into the cities, the people of the up and supportse them in casting out the propaganda nd, the this would d that end the war, the americans would e forced out and the saigon regime would collapse. I should add that the more hard headed North Vietnamese military who had a lot more experience fighting in the field share that optimistic estimate. And they told their political you know, we can take the city, but the people are not going to rise up in the americans and will come back and take the city back, and we dont think we can more than a few days. How many cities in south tet . Nam were attacked on just about every sizable town vietnam wasin south at