In his illustrated talks, he offered a firsthand account of the real story behind its development. The Smithsonian Associates hosted this event. Lauren good evening. Im Lauren Rosenberg with the Smithsonian Associates. And id like to welcome you to this program. To members, im so glad that youre here. Its your support that makes events like this possible. And if youre joining for the first time, an equally warm welcome and invitation to explore the wide range of programs we offer. Now is your perfect time to talk off your cell phone or anything that might make noise during the program. Thank you for doing that. This past march marked the 50th anniversary of the u. S. Navy Fighter Weapons program. We welcome the programs founder, dan pederson. He entered the u. S. Navy in 1953 and went on to become the senior officer of nine men to form the legendary Top Gun Program at Naval Air Station miramar in march of 1969. He served in combat during the vietnam war with the flying crews on the uss hancock and three on the uss enterprise. He retired as a captain, having accumulated 6100 flight hours and 1005 flight carrier landings with 39 different types of aircraft. For those of you who know pedersons story from the 1986 movie, top gun, Jerry Bruckheimer is producing, maverick, a sequel in 2020. His book is available for purchase and signing. Here to keep the conversation going is larry burke, curator of Naval Aviation at the national air and space museum. Please join me in welcoming dan pedersen and larry burke. [applause] you ready to go . Ok. Im going to take about 10 minutes to just set the stage for larry to go back and forth in final preparation for the questions coming from you. How many of you have actually read the book . Good. That really gives me free play. [laughter] dan especially with a couple of squadron meets back here to keep me honest. Ill tell you how the book came about. The 50th anniversary on the third of march of this year top gun was conceived on that date 50 years ago. Tells you a long time. Tells you something about how old i am. Jim horn fisher, whos my literary agent, has four best sellers of his own. And he came to me, along with the famous condor, who you see here in the pictures. They said were getting close to 50 years. Its time to put the legacy in writing. Ive been fighting with the brits. I can show you the letters ive been getting from london newspapers. Somebody over there says, yeah, we started top gun and then the americans took it over. That would kind of ruffle your feathers, which it did. We had been fighting back and forth over time. Because i was a senior, i ended up being the boss man during the initial phase of this. And well get into how it was done and who did it and so forth shortly. One of the benefits of writing this book was it allowed me to think back. I do a comparison with what i know today. And im older. I dont know it all, but i compare what i see and was in writing about the navy as it exists today. I think i did a pretty fair job based on the reaction of the book and the reviews. One of the things were most proud of was the reviews we had gotten. I started out in 1953 working two jobs going to college, like everybody in those days was doing. So i went in the reserves. Assigned to nf two an f4u world war ii squadron. And heres the first good one. I was working for a chief name named brown. He was my mentor. Mentor is a keyword youre going to hear a lot from me. I carried his toolbox and i got his coffee whenever i wanted. Inordinatet an amount of time teaching me how to maintain those airplanes. It was in lhasa libidos, california. Los asa libidos, callow alamitos, california. Not down here. I do make mistakes. We were in the first jet squadron in the navy. Mentor number two. Twin cockpit front and back. They had flight controls in the backseat. And he said you know, youre learning to be a jet engine still over my shoulder every minute watching me. He said why dont you go flying with me . So i went flying a few times in the backseat. It was the first airplane i had ever been in. I thought, boy do i love this. Over the course of a few months, and he said you know, youre really pretty good at it. I didnt land very well. But i could fly it pretty good. [laughter] he said, would you consider going to Flight Training if i helped you take the exams and prepare you . I talked to my folks and my folks said thats an honorable provision, naval aviator. We really support that. So, to make a long story short there. I went through pensacola, like we all did. 1956 and 1957, 18 months, i did very well. And a lot of that had to do with the young lieutenants inspiration that he gave me. He set the stage. He later went on to be head of the fbi. Hell of a guy. What a great man. Then we come out of Flight Training. We had some amazing good grades and i ended up with roommates in North Highland. Famous North Highland in san diego in the Fighter Squadron. Sent orders to the fleet. We were in formation. The squadron was amazing when i got there. I dont remember when ron got there but i know we were very close. We had a lot of world war ii guys who were seniors in that squadron. Mentor number three, gino. Howard found the japanese at the battle of midway. He was flying a patrol plane. But we were surrounded by great talent from world war ii in that first fiveyear squadron. We had 60 airplanes, four different kinds. We stay home, drink a little whiskey, and take care of mama and the kids. So they did, and they encouraged us to fly. And so i had all the flight time. This is a key point for where you are today in america. We had all the flight time we could handle as young pilots. Thats not true today. I can talk more about it later on. Success from that day on, mentoring is a reason. I dont think intuitively i ever was what ultimately i capable of doing. I think it was being exposed to great americans. Around 23, 28 victories in world war ii. And he was ready to rest a little bit. But his enthusiasm had carried to five or six of us at the carried over to five or six of us at the squadron. It was good. I had more than my contemporaries because the abundance we had in those days. And the only way you really get good in Tactical Aviation is to fly a lot. You got to love it. Flying. Airline its combat flying. And you got to set your mind to it. Thats my background. Thats what i got. I went on from there. Dr. Larry knows. We had some time together. He knows a little bit of it. He will ask some questions and then well go to questions from the audience. Larry alright, so as you see, i got a stack here, probably more than i need. I do actually want to back up a little bit. Is there anything in your background that led you to join the navy in the first place . Is it something you always wanted to do or was it something you just kind of dan you know, when i got exposed, when he slapped me in back four or five times you have to remember airlines, in those days, there werent airliners. There were jets. It was brandnew and exciting. Its hard to explain to people who havent been there. How absolutely beautiful flying and be. Ash can be. Flying can be. Combat maybe. But flying across the United States. I came across california yesterday and i had a window seat. And it was one of those days where i got to look out across the country and thought, what a beautiful country we live in. Im, exposure to it, and the personality that i love it. I would go back and do every single day of it again if i was younger. Unfortunately, time grabbed me. An answer. Gave you larry alright, so you already sort of mentioned you go from there. You go to basic Flight Training in pensacola. And you absolutely loved that. Dan marine di made believers out of us. Basic Flight Training. You go through a boot camp, basic Flight Training. Then you go on to advance. You get fuel jets. Youve got to realize, particularly for the ladies, there wasnt other than korea, there wasnt a lot of male expertise in flying tactical jets. It was something new and very exciting. Its a root ticket write every day and they pay you to do it. I think i was born to do it. So thats why. I think i was born to do it. And i enjoyed it very much. Longwinded answer. Larry actually, regarding the panther, you started out a prop trainer in basic. Tv, too . Dan oh, no. That old thing covered up in oil . That was typical. G28 after that. I went toof course, advanced training in texas. They bring you along pretty fast. Six months. Six months, youre going to cover the spectrum airplane. You may remember that. I think when i got out of the navy, i think of the original 17 guys in my class, seven of us were still up and kick in. In those days, you didnt have a lot of jet experience. Maintenance wasnt nearly what it was today. Larry could you just Say Something more about your first experiences in the panthers . Dan man, its in the book. [laughter] larry dan you can see where they were repainted. It was just dynamite. It was a totally e ticket ride. Your flying number one, your flying by yourself for the first time and there is nothing more thrilling than that. And this airplane, it had guns. Boy, do i like guns. The guns are the primary weapon of choice today. 50 years later. And they always have been. Sadly, when you read the book, youll find the f4 never had a gun. Industry and washington decided not to put a gun in the airplanes. I couldve saved so many guys on the ground from being pow. I got called in three times when someone got shot down, and they were captured by the guy on the ground. Finally got a gun. You had no other weapon in the airplane. Thats the down side. Cancerous dynamite. Larry alright, so again, in the book, you described a couple of instances of advanced training, that really reinforced the fact that you are on your own. Would you care to tell our audience dan you mean the trip to dallas in the low level . Three or four of us in the division, flying a wedge, if you will. And part of the syllabus was to go to dallas. Land at the Naval Air Station, recast their, and flyback down there, and fly back down. Thats only several hundred miles, 3. 5 by car. In an airplane doing 400 miles per hour, its a handful. There wasnt any weather. If we dont like the weather today, well cancel. We went. And we had 600 foot overcast. We had four of us trying to keep track of each other on the wings. Were going back up to dallas. And we did pretty good. Except coming back. Coming back and were probably a little bit misaligned on the exact track coming back. All of a sudden, it goes between me and my wingy is a redless tower. We the towers there, later found out was 1500 feet, and we were cruising along 500 feet just below the clag. Man, that thing went by so fast. The red light really caught my eye. I said thats a reality check. [laughter] dan its a dam dangerous damn dangerous business. And a lot of things you cant plan for. I dont know how many old aviators there were, no one my age. But remember when we used to fly the radio orange before we have that modern technology we have today . Youve got to be able to fly in the soup and navigate using just code, code letters. In 18 months of training, i got it down. I hated to admit it because i got great grades, but i flunked going into victoria. Instructor in the backseat of a tbird approaching in their. In there. I got disoriented. And it was just terrible. Excuse. Youre a naval aviator, youre supposed to be able to do these things every single time. And i didnt. And i got it down. I went and grabbed a cup of coffee with my instructor. I thought this isnt good, youre in trouble. The first one i had 18 months. With a good lesson of humility there. I took that with me quite a ways beyond that day and pay dearly for it. I made it through, got orders. Squadron three at north island. Go to i was going to squadron fighter three next. Dan you get me going sometimes. There. So youre assigned what was it that made the squadron so unusual . Dan well, it was all veterans. We probably had the best flight leader. We were broken up to four different flights. We probably had the four best instructor pilots, leaders, that i ever flew with in any Fighter Squadron. Except maybe enterprise during the war. It was, you cant help when you fly once per day or as often as you feel like it, truly thats what we did. Youre around these guys with alert watches, Defense Command working for the airport in a hokey mission. In those days, we had to do it. We got good at it. We won the awards every year that we had that duty. The benefit of the young ones like me and an abundance of why you know, i associate it with light, kind j owes, same kind of mind that i was. And our mentors and teachers were all the cream of the crop from the Second World War. Thats what we ought to be doing today. We need to mentor more young ones. In todays Naval Aviation. Therein lies part of the story of top gun. Larry did you ever find out how this lone Navy Squadron became came to be part of norad . Dan no. [laughter] didnt care as long as i got to fly. Im not much of a politician. Larry the other thing is you were flying, nicknamed the ford because of that designation. What was that like . It was the hot rod of the day. Dan that was fun. That was fun, challenging. Never in the history of my flying career i never flew anything and thats why we learned to dogfight. In the book it describes a place where it was illegitimate. It was hell to do it but it was the only way we could keep dogfighting alive back in 1957, 1958, and 1959. People were trying to revert back to missiles and radar and all the magic stuff. And we go out and dogfight. Sankfternoon, saint an island, area 51. We wouldve gotten courtmartialed, but we were pretty quiet guys. When you know youre doing something you probably shouldnt be doing. But im not sure our bosses in that great Fighter Squadron didnt look the other way a lot. Larry which actually sort of brings us to something. The other thing about the f4d is it had a lot of guns but not a lot of rounds. It was primarily intended to use guided missiles, which were just coming into services at this point. Dan rockets, at that time, they had 2. 75 rockets on them. If you doubt my statement and mentality to change very sophisticated, expensive. Ports,ped off the gun took off all the gun ports. Taped them off and they eventually just covered them all. Even in that day and that time, we never got to use the guns. We never got to fire guns, did we . We won the all navy weapons next weapon meet that year. Killed on the kitty hawk. Were you with him on that cru ise . [inaudible] dan he had an engine failure. He was as good as they got back in the days. And careerwise, he really did well. But sometimes you roll the dice and you dont win. I write about him in the book. So, youve already brought up this hassling, as you put in the book. Dan makes me nervous. Larry what about it makes you nervous . Dan its an art. You. All of its an art to dogfight. We come up with some sayings. One of them was secondplace was dead last. And thats what happens when you dogfight in combat for real. Areou dont win, chances youre in a parachute or worse. The movie did an injustice in that regard. They painted us as a bunch of cowboys anyhow. My original guys were all phds, at least. Intellectually, they all had two combat tours in vietnam. They were the seven best i knew. The picture of mel homes up there, the guy in the nice hat and all that, he lived in a in those days, and ill include the israelis. I flew with the israelis quite a bit. That airplane. I put that in writing. His wife gave me a big kiss. [laughter] dan but mel was that good. I enjoyed telling you about this, larry. What makes a guy that good . Maybe its a godgiven talent. But mel would strap in the f4. He had that kind of perception. The airplane became one with him. Now, out of the seven or eight guys, and i picked top gun, the original rose. He redefined the envelope of the f4. He knew that airplane. He knew what it would do. I got a lot of trouble with mick douglas because we flew that airplane way beyond. We never killed anybody, we never wrecked an airplane. So you get away with it. Pretty soon the kill ratio goes 2 1 in vietnam. Probably fifth now. Now, afterreason march,ars of war, from 3 1969, to the end of the vietnam going strong,as putting guys in the fleet, new design. Guess what the end kill ratio was . 24 1. Thats a whole lot better. You can hold your head up high when you get back on the airplane. Anyhow, im sorry. Thatbly preempted you on one. Larry no, no, well come back to it. We got on what it was designed to do. One of your themes was being counters restricting lets possible. Time, you period of write about the fact that the navy actually restricts or prohibits air combat maneuvering, dogfighting, so as not to put strain on the aircraft. And combined with this idea that its all going to be missiles, you wont need the dogfight. You go up, you shoot up the seekers, the sidewinder and the sparrow, and the navy thinks it will all be Long Distance shots. You wont need to maneuver. Do you think this practice of hassling grew out of that restriction or do you think it wouldve happened anyway . Dan it wouldve been the older guys. Three of them wouldve been the mentors. Those guys knew because they had been there. One guy is advocating it. They were all seniors, four commanders at the time. Youre not going to publicly tell washington what he really thinks. He can go on these 28 kills he did himself. Probably more of an authority than us sitting back here, mandating a new way of doing it, if you will. Guys,sten to those theyve been there. They were the vitals we had. So we went along with it. Congratulate them over whatever you want to say. It worked. Airplane, acm, or combat ring, maneuvering, dogfighting, the way that works he describes a detail in the book. Were out the fight club, area 51. Island,on, out of the restricted area out there. You go out there and you find 8, 10 airplanes. Everybody is getting along with each other. They aint going to fight with each other. You pull up alongside somebody, look over, check them out. Ok, breakaway. You doiles, come back, 500 knots apiece, the closing rate. And this is called the merge. And thats what real combat is like when you see the enemy. C