Off your cell phone or anything that might make noise during the program. Thank you for doing that. This past march marked the 50th anniversary of the u. S. Navy Fighter Weapons program. We are thrilled this evening to welcome the programs founder, dan pederson. He entered the u. S. Navy in 1953 and went on to become the senior officer in the group of nine men who formed the legendary Top Gun Program at Naval Air Station miramar in march of 1969. He served in combat during the vietnam war with the flying crews on the uss hancock and three on the uss enterprise. He retired as a captain, having accumulated 6100 flight hours and 1005 flight carrier landings while flying 39 different types of aircraft. For those of you who know pedersons story from the 1986 movie, top gun, Jerry Bruckheimer is producing, top gun maverick, a sequel in 2020. His book is available for purchase and signing following this conversation. Here to keep the conversation going is larry burke, curator of Naval Aviation at the national air and space museum. Please join me in welcoming dan pedersen and larry burke. [applause] you ready to go . Ok. Im going to take about 10 minutes to just set the stage for larry to go back and forth in final preparation for the questions coming from you. How many of you have actually read the book . Good. That really gives me free play. [laughter] dan especially with a couple of squadron mates back here to keep me honest. Ill tell you how the book came about. The 50th anniversary on the third of march of this year top gun was conceived on that date 50 years ago. Sounds like a long time. Tells you something about how old i am. Jim horn fisher, whos my literary agent, has four best sellers of his own. And he came to me, along with the famous condor, who you see here in the pictures. They said were getting close to 50 years. Its time to put the legacy in writing. Ive been fighting with the brits. I can show you the letters ive been getting from london newspapers. Somebody over there says, yeah, we started top gun and then the americans took it over. That would kind of ruffle your feathers, which it did. We had been fighting back and forth over time. To tell the story. The one that be was drafted by the original eight guys because i was a senior, i ended up being the boss man during the initial phase of this. And well get into how it was done and who did it and so forth here shortly. One of the benefits of writing this book was it allowed me to think back. I do a comparison with what i know today. And im older. I dont know it all, but i compare what i see and was in writing about the navy as it exists today. Where we are with the airplanes. I think i did a pretty fair job based on the reaction of the book and the reviews. One of the things were most proud of where the reviews we have gotten. I started out in 1953 working two jobs going to college, like everybody in those days was doing. The draft was breathing on my neck. So i went in the reserves. I was assigned to an f4u world war ii squadron. I was a regional engine mechanic. And heres the first good one. I was working for a chief name d brown. He was my mentor. Mentor is a keyword youre going to hear a lot from me. I worked for chief brown. I carried his toolbox and i got his coffee whenever i wanted. And he spent an inordinate amount of time teaching me how to maintain those airplanes. It was down here at los alamitos, california. Not down here. I am in d. C. Tonight. Forgive me. I do make mistakes. We were in the first jet squadron in the navy. Mentor number two. A young lieutenant. Twin cockpit front and back. They had flight controls in the backseat. And he said you know, youre learning to be a jet engine mechanic. Chief brown was still over my shoulder every minute watching me. He said why dont you go flying with me . So i went flying a few times in the backseat. The first jet airplane i had ever been in. I thought, boy do i love this. Over the course of a few months, and he said you know, youre really pretty good at it. He near taught me to fly that airplane. I didnt land very well. But i could fly it pretty good. [laughter] dan so anyhow, he said, would you consider going to Flight Training if i helped you take the exams and prepare you . I talked to my folks and my folks said thats an honorable provision, naval aviator. We would really support that. So, to make a long story short there. I went through Flight Training, pensacola, like we all did. 1956 and 1957, 18 months, i did very well. I think a lot of it had to do with that young lieutenant, the inspiration that he gave me. He set the stage. He later went on to be head of the fbi in the Western Region of the United States. Hell of a guy. What a great man. Then we come out of Flight Training. Grades are good. We had some amazing good grades and i ended up with roommates in North Highland. Famous North Highland in san diego in the Fighter Squadron. The first set of orders to the fleet. We were in formation. The squadron was amazing when i got there. I dont remember when ron got there, but i know we were very close. We had a lot of world war ii guys who were seniors in that squadron. Mentor number three, gino. Howard found the japanese at the battle of midway. He was flying a patrol plane. But we were surrounded by great talent from world war ii in that first fiveyear squadron. We had 60 airplanes, four different kinds. The old guys said we have done it, we want to stay home, drink a little whiskey, and take care of mama and the kids. So they did, and they encouraged us to fly. And so i had all the flight time. This is a key point for where you are today in america. We had all the flight time we could handle as young pilots. Thats not true today. I can talk more about it later on. Success from that day on, mentoring is a reason. I dont think intuitively i ever knew what ultimately i was capable of doing. I think it was being exposed to great americans. Gino had around 23, 28 victories in world war ii. And he was ready to rest a little bit. But his enthusiasm had carried to five or six of us at the carried over to five or six of us who checked in at the squadron. It was good. I had more than my contemporaries because the abundance of flying we had in those days. And the only way you really get good in Tactical Aviation is to fly a lot. You got to love it. It isnt airline flying. Its combat flying. And you got to set your mind to it. Thats my background. Thats what i got. I went on from there. Dr. Larry knows, we have had some time together, and he knows a good event. It. Nows a good bit of he will ask some questions and then well go to questions from the audience. Larry alright, so as you see, i got a stack here, probably more than i need. We will see how it goes. I do actually want to back up a little bit. Is there anything in your background that led you to join the navy in the first place . Is it something you always wanted to do, or was it something you just kind of dan you know, when i got exposed, when that lieutenant strapped me in the back of that airplane for the first time, after four or five times you have to remember airlines, in those days, there werent airliners. There was nothing fancy except for the jets. It was brandnew and exciting. Its hard to explain to people who havent been there. How absolutely beautiful flying can be. Combat maybe. But flying across the United States. I came across california yesterday and i had a window seat. And it was one of those days where i got to look out across the country, and i thought, my god, what a beautiful country we live in. Yeah, exposure to it, and im of the personality that i loved it. I would go back and do every single day of it again if i was young enough. Unfortunately, time grabbed me. I hope that gave you an answer. Larry alright, so you already sort of mentioned you go from there. You go to basic Flight Training in pensacola. And you absolutely loved that. Dan marine di made believers out of us. Boot camp, you go through a boot camp, basic Flight Training. Then you go on to advance. If you do well enough you get jets. Youve got to realize, particularly for the ladies, there wasnt other than korea, there wasnt a lot of male expertise in flying tactical jets. It was something new and very exciting. In advanced training in texas i that ginome f2s and Bill Armstrong had flown in korea. It is a neat ticket ride every day, and they pay you to do it. I think i was born to do it. And i enjoyed it very much. Longwinded answer. [laughter] larry actually, regarding the panther, you started out a prop trainer in basic. Tv2 . Nt to dan oh, no. That old thing covered up in oil . That was typical. Flew g28 after that. And then, of course, i went to advanced training in texas. They bring you along pretty fast. Six months. Six months, youre going to cover the spectrum airplane. If you are good and safe you have to live through it. Remember that. Thats the number one prerequisite. You have to live through it. I think when i got out of the navy, i think of the original 17 guys in my class, seven of us were still up and kicking. In those days, you didnt have a lot of jet experience. Maintenance wasnt nearly what it was today. Larry could you just Say Something more about your first experiences in the panthers . This is the first time you are getting into a frontline aircraft. Dan man, its in the book. [laughter] buy the book . I should have had [laughter] one. Dan you can see where they were repainted. It was just dynamite. It was a total e ticket ride. You are flying number one. You are flying by yourself for the first time, and there is nothing more thrilling than that. And this airplane, it had guns. Boy, do i like guns. It is in the book. The guns are the primary weapon of choice today. 50 years later. And they always have been. Sadly, when you read the book, youll find the f4 never had a gun. Industry and washington decided not to put a gun in the airplanes. I couldve saved so many guys on the ground from being pow. s. I got called in three times when somebody had gotten shot down and they were captured by the guy on the ground. If i had had a gun. I had no other weapon in the airplane. Thats the down side. Im sorry. But they were dynamite to fly. Larry alright, so again, in the book, you described a couple of instances of advanced training, that really reinforced the fact that you are on your own. Would you care to tell our audience dan you mean the trip to dallas in the low level . Three or four of us in the division, flying a wedge, if you will. And part of the syllabus was to go to dallas. Land at the Naval Air Station regas there, and fly back down. , thats only several hundred miles, 3. 5 by car. In an airplane doing 400 to 500 miles an hour, its a handful. None of us were through Flight Training. There wasnt any weather. If we dont like the weather today, well cancel. We went. And we had 600 foot overcast. And we went, four of us, trying to keep track of each other. Were going back up to dallas. And we did pretty good. Except coming back. Coming back and were probably a little bit misaligned on the exact track coming back. All of a sudden, it goes between me and my wingy is a redless tower. And the towers there, we later found out was 1500 feet, and we were cruising along 500 feet just below the clag. Man, that thing went by so fast. The red light really caught my eye. I said thats a reality check. [laughter] dan its a damn dangerous business. And a lot of things you cant plan for. I dont know how many old aviators there were, no one my age. But remember the radio range when we used to fly the radio range before we have that modern technology we have today . Youve got to be able to fly in the soup and navigate using just code, code letters. In 18 months of training, i got it down. I hated to admit it because i got great grades, but i flunked going into victoria. Instructor in the backseat of a tbird on radio range approaching there. I got disoriented. The weather right down to the deck, just a terrible day. But no excuse. Youre a naval aviator, youre supposed to be able to do these things every single time. And i didnt. And i got it down. And i went back and landed in beeville, i went and grabbed a cup of coffee with my instructor. I thought, boy this isnt good, youre in trouble. He gave me a down. The first one i had 18 months. He said it is a good lesson in humility. I took that with me quite a ways and paid dearly for it. I made it through, got orders. Fighter squadron three at north island. Yes, sir. i was going to go to all weather Fighter Squadron three next. Dan you get me going sometimes. Larry so youre assigned there. What was it that made the squadron so unusual . Dan well, it was all veterans. We probably had the best flight leader. We were broken into four different flights. Of the guys in leather jackets flying sky rates. Sky raids. We probably had the four best instructor pilots, leaders, that i ever flew with in any Fighter Squadron. Except for maybe enterprise during the war. It was you cant help when you fly once per day or as often as you feel like it, truly thats what we did. That is why we ended up with so very much flight time. Youre around these guys with alert watches, Defense Command working for the airport in a hokey mission. Somebody in those days had to do it. We got good at it. We won the awards every year that we had that duty. The benefit of the young ones , an abundance of flying, guys of the same mindset as i was, and our mentors and teachers were all the cream of the crop from the second world war. Thats what we ought to be doing today. We need to mentor more young ones. In todays Naval Aviation. Therein lies part of the story of top gun. Larry did you ever find out how this loan Navy Squadron lone Navy Squadron came to be part of norad . Dan no. [laughter] dan i didnt care as long as i got to fly. I really didnt. Im not much of a politician. Larry the other thing is you d in theing the sky rai 4f1d, nicknamed the ford because of that designation. What was that like . It was the hot rod of the day. Dan that was fun. That was fun, challenging. Never in the history of my flying career i never flew anything and thats why we learned to dogfight. In the book it describes a place where it was illegitimate. It was hell to do it, but it was the only way we could keep dogfighting alive back in 1957, 1958, and 1959. People were trying to revert back to missiles and radar and all the magic stuff. And we go out and dogfight. By the afternoon sank an island, area 51. We wouldve gotten courtmartialed, but we were pretty quiet guys. When you know youre doing something you probably shouldnt be doing. But im not sure our bosses in that great Fighter Squadron didnt look the other way a lot. Larry which actually sort of brings us to something. The other thing about the f4d is it had a lot of guns but not a lot of rounds. It was primarily intended to use guided missiles, which were just coming into service at this point. Dan rockets. At that time, they had 2. 75 rockets on them. If you doubt my statement and statement on the mentality of ,hange to very sophisticated expensive, they taped off the gun ports, took off all the gun ports. Took all of the guns out and taped them off and they eventually just covered them all. Even in that day and that time, we never got to use the guns. When we went to weapons, we never got to fire guns, did we . We won the all navy weapons meet that year. Don was killed on the kitty hawk. Were you with him on that cruise . [inaudible] dan he had an engine failure. On an a7. He was as good as they got back in the days. And careerwise, he really did well. But sometimes you roll the dice and dont win. I write about him in the book. Larry so, youve already brought up this practice of hassling, as you put in the book. Dan makes me nervous. Larry what about it makes you nervous . Dan its an art. I see all of you. Its an art to dogfight. The original eight guys and i came up with some sayings. , secondplaces was dead last. And thats what happens when you dogfight in combat for real. If you dont win, chances are youre in a parachute or worse. The movie did an injustice to us in that regard. They painted us as a bunch of cowboys anyhow. My original guys were all phds, at least. Intellectually, they all had two combat tours in vietnam. They were 15 i had to choose from. They were the seven best i knew. The picture of mel homes up there, the guy in the nice hat and all that, he lived in a flight suit. In those days, and ill include the israelis. I flew with the israelis quite a bit. Home to the best of the world and that airplane. I put that in writing. His wife gave me a big kiss. [laughter] dan but mel was that good. I enjoyed telling you about this, larry. What makes a guy that good . Maybe its a godgiven talent. But mel would strap in the f4. When he was engaging someone in a dogfight he would never look back in the cockpit. He had that kind of perception. The airplane became one with him. Now, out of the seven or eight guys, and i picked top gun, the original rose. He redefined the envelope of the f4. He was not degreed as an masistnami educationally, but he knew that airplane. He knew what it would do. I got a lot of trouble with mick douglas because we flew that airplane way beyond. We flew that airplane way beyond what it was intended to do. We never killed anybody, we never wrecked an airplane. So you get away with it. Pretty soon the kill ratio goes from 2 1 in vietnam. You probably wont ask me this, but i have to tell it. 2 1 is the reason now, after five years of war that top gun got started. From 3 march, 1969, to the end of the vietnam war, top gun was going strong, putting guys in the fleet, teaching the new tactics we designed. Guess what the end kill ratio was . 24 1. Thats a whole lot better. You can hold your head up high when you come back and get out of the airplane, i tell you. Anyhow, im sorry. Probably preempted you on that one. Larry no, no, well come back to it. I did want to ask, you sort of brought this up about flying the f4 beyond what it was designed to do. One of your themes was the be an counters restricting lets restricting what is possible. So in this period of time, you write about the fact that the navy actually restricts