Contamination of workers, but a safety group said radiation inside the plant is at eight times the deadly level. So strong, after passing through a 3foot thick concrete wall, it can be measured a mile away. Gary shepherd reports from harrisburg. Reporter the accident occurred here at the Three Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant a dozen miles south of harrisburg. About 4 00 this morning, two water pumps that help cool reactor number two shut down. Officials say some 50 to 60,000 gallons of radioactive water escaped into the reactor building. And that the radioactivity penetrated the plants walls. Steam escaped into the atmosphere, and radiation was detected as far as a mile away. At least 50 workers and perhaps twice that number were at the plant when the accident occurred. A spokesman admitted some were exposed to radioactivity and may have been contaminated. He claimed no one was injured. All workers were given extensive checks with geiger counters as they left the plant. Reporters were not permitted inside the facility today, but this is what reactor number twos control room looked like last september when it was still undergoing testing. It went into commercial service only three months ago. Cbs News Coverage and march 1979. A live view of three mile island. Joining us here in our studios is samuel walker, the author of three mile island a Nuclear Crisis in historical perspective. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. Nice to be here. Walk us through the timeline of these events as they unfolded. Wednesday, march 28th, 1979, things were going routinely. It was a midnight shift. The shut eye shift. Suddenly, at 4 00 a. M. In the morning on march 28th, wednesday, there was a cut off of feed water to what was called a secondary system, which raised the pressure, which caused, according to design, a valve to open, called the pressure operated relief valve. When that opened, pressure started to build up. Or it opened so it would relieve the pressure that had built up in the reactor. That was according to design, so things were going fine at that point. But then after the valve had been open for 10 seconds or so, it should have closed, and it didnt. The result of that valve not closing, the valve sticking open, water started to rush out from the reactor, the cooling water that is used to maintain the temperature in the reactor, started to rush out. Within a fairly short time, you had all the makings of the worst incident, worst kind of accident you can have in a Nuclear Power plant, a loss of coolant accident. By that time in the control room, alarms were going off. 100 lights on the control panel were blinking. The operators knew that something was happening that wasnt good, but they didnt know exactly what it was. One of the lessons that were learned from the accident is that you didnt have any instrument on a huge control panel that showed that the plant was suffering a loss of coolant accident. There was no instrument like a gas gauge on a car that shows that water was evacuating from the core, so it wasnt clear to the operators that they were facing a loss of coolant accident. According to design, the emergency core cooling systems came on, but the operators were more concerned about what was called in the pressurizer, an important feature of pressurized water plants, what was called going solid. Too much water in the pressurizer. Thats what they had been trained carefully to avoid. They were more concerned about the possibility of going solid than they were about a loss of coolant accident. They shut off the emergency core cooling systems. One of the pumps was shut completely. The other was closed down enough to stop the flow of cooling water to a trickle. Within a couple of hours, the fuel rods were badly damaged. Within a couple of hours after the valve was stuck open, you had a major loss of coolant accident. We found out much later you had a meltdown. Tmi 2 on the morning of march 28th, 1979, suffered a massive core meltdown. President carter visited shortly after the accident. He was a nuclear scientist, a Nuclear Physicist, trained at the naval academy. Did his visit ease the concerns . We should point out, you are from this part of the state, and your brother served in the house of representatives, elected just a few years before. Yes and yes. Yes, im from the area, so i had a great deal of empathy about what was going on. And i still do. President carters visit to the island was on sunday. This was five days after the accident occurred. His visit was extremely important in reassuring the population that things were not in terrible shape. No one knew at that point that the plant had actually suffered a meltdown. His visit was important in letting the people of central pennsylvania know that things were more or less under control. One should not exaggerate the confidence that people felt on that morning, about things being under control. The fact that he would come there and visit the plant and go into the control room was a major reassurance for people of the area, that things if they werent under control would be taken care of, or else carter wouldnt have shown up. Heres what president carter said back in 1979 just a few days after the accident occurred. The president came to the plant for one very simple reason. To assure the people that if the president of the United States and the governor of pennsylvania were standing there together, right at the plant site that, obviously, there was no reason to believe that the whole thing was going to blow up at any minute. Obviously, that would reassure the population that were going to have plenty of advance warning if we have to get out of here. Then back to middletown. The president praised local officials. Then without actually using the word, referred to what everyone here has been thinking about for days. Evacuation. I would like to say to the people who live around the three mile island plant that if it does become necessary, your governor, governor thornburg, will ask you and others in the area to take appropriate action to ensure your safety. If he does, i want to urge that these instructions be carried out calmly and exactly as they have been in the past few days. That from cbs coverage of the events 40 years ago. Could it happen today . Its less likely to happen today. Weve learned a whole lot from the accident at three mile island. The major lesson that was learned was not enough attention had been paid to what were called Human Factors as a cause of a Nuclear Plant accident. What we learned after three mile island is the operator should have been trained better. We also learned that the instrument panels had to be redesigned so they could provide useful information, which the operators were not getting as the accident proceeded. We also learned that we had to pay a lot more attention to emergency planning. We also learned that we have to we being the country, we also learned that we have to concentrate more on plant management. Too many utilities that owned Nuclear Plants at that time saw it as just another way to boil water and didnt really pay enough attention to what needed to be done to make certain plants were safe. Doesnt mean that an accident is out of the question, but it does mean that it is much less likely than it was 40 years ago. If youre from central pennsylvania, three mile island, we welcome your participation. Our phone lines are open eastern and central, mountain and pacific time zones. Those in the area, 2027428002. Lets go to dave joining us from armstrong creek, wisconsin. Good morning. Caller thanks for taking my call. Im just wondering if the design of the plant is similar to the one in fukushima, japan. Also, to my understanding, the Nuclear Facilities are basically uninsurable, too expensive to insure. The government has to really back up if there is an accident. Am i correct in those assumptions . Thank you. Well get a response. The answer to your first question is that the design of the three mile island was different than the design of the fukushima. A lot of questions have been raised about that. The basic problem at fukushima, as i understand it, was that the siting of the plant was in a very poor place. A lot of questions have been raised, quite properly, about why you would site a several plants that close to the ocean that had a history of tsunamis. In that sense, what happened at fukushima is quite different than what happened at three mile island. In terms of insuring, the price anderson act, which was passed early in the history of Nuclear Power, was passed, one, to make certain that there was enough coverage for people if there was a major accident at a Nuclear Power plant. And its simply turned out that there werent any Insurance Companies that had enough confidence or enough assets to insure a worstcase Nuclear Power plant. As early as 1957 or so, there was great concern. If you have a major Nuclear Power accident, if you have a major release of radiation, that the damages and the costs and injuries and lives could be much larger than the ability of any Insurance Company to cover. So thats why the government offered Liability Insurance for which owners of power plants had to pay in. So thats right. I mean, the government did step in and stepped in both as a way to reassure people and to help stimulate the growth of the Nuclear Power industry, which was viewed as an Important National objective at that time. But also to protect people who might be affected by a Nuclear Power accident. So thats why the government offered Liability Insurance for which owners of power plants had to pay in. So thats right. I mean, the government did step in and stepped in both as a way to reassure people and to help stimulate the growth of the Nuclear Power industry, which was viewed as an Important National objective at that time. But also to protect people who might be affected by a Nuclear Power accident. We were in the area regionally, able to get some drone aerial footage to give you a perspective of what it looks like. Jim is joining us from massillon, ohio. Good morning. Caller good morning, gentlemen. Well, i was teaching science at the time three mile island happened, and i heard your guest talk about the Human Element being something. Of course, the Human Element hasnt changed a whole lot in 40 years. I was just wondering if he could pull forth a little bit on the need. When you have the ucs person coming up soon, i believe their stance is neutrality on Nuclear Power plants according to design. I was wondering if he could talk a little bit about what Design Elements i know plants are very, very expensive, which is why probably they arent being built at the moment, but i believe there is a is it a french design or a design for smaller Nuclear Plants which reduce the possibility of, i suppose, a major accident . If he could talk a little bit about that and any other changes that would we would see, other than obviously a warning light for loss of coolant or Something Like that. Jim, thank you. Yeah, there are lots of ideas for new designs, some of which have been tested experimentally, some are still on drawing boards, and i dont know a lot about them. The original designs in plants operating now are both based on early designs from the early 1950s for submarines. It is very possible that the new designs could be put into place that would be safer, that would create less radioactive waste, and that would have major advantages over the current designs. I dont think there are going to be many more plants original than the four or five being built right now, of current designs. So if we wanted the Nuclear Power to be a part of our energy mix, i think were going to have to find new designs and test them and make certain that they work as they should. I mentioned this earlier, but your brother, robert walker, had just began his term in the house of representatives in pennsylvania. The northeastern boundary of his district was just south of three mile island. He spent a lot of time up in middletown and the area. Those five days, there were five acute days of crisis. There were five days after the accident occurred when no one knew exactly what was happening. There was great concern. There was understandable anxiety on the part of the people of central pennsylvania but also policymakers and officials in the government, both the state and the federal government. One of those officials was my brother, bob. He was up there every day trying to find out what was going on and what the risks were and what the chances were that there was going to be major leaks of radiation. He tells the story. He lived in east petersburg, within a 20mile radius. He found out later that his neighbors were watching him and his house. They had their cars packed. They were all ready to go. They thought if he and his wife left suddenly, that they were going too. Didnt turn out that way. At least that was their way of preparing for the accident, was to make certain that they were ready to go. Their cars were gassed up. They were packed up. If he left, they were going too. You look a lot like your brother. We have a picture of him. Well share that with the audience. Go to aubry in clarksburg, maryland. Caller good morning. Im aubry. I, too, lived in the harrisburg area at the time of tmi. What i recall about the incident was my parents as well had urgently come to school, removed me from elementary school, and our family then packed up and headed to pittsburgh, where we were from. The question im calling to ask about is both of my siblings had sickle cell anemia. After the event, neither had the supply of blood, in laymans terms, to last them a week or two in regard to their condition. I always had the question with regard to radiation, radiation in the air, if you want to term it that. They were the effects, short of cancers, that we may be discussing and debating here now 40 years later . Some of the immediate effects. I look at that through the context of the lens of a scientist but also thinking about some of the other mass casualty event. For example, the bombings in japan or chenobyl. You know, what is it weve ever been able to discern with regard to the immediate effects . Specifically, with bone marrow suppression, of people with, lets say, sickle cell anemia, or anyone for that matter, have been a likely sort of effect of what had happened at tmi. Before we get a response, how are they today . Caller oh, my sister is deceased, unfortunately. That happened in 1988. My brother is alive, still living in harrisburg. Aubry, thank you for the call. Any connection . Well, let me speak in general terms first. Let me address the general question first. That is the amounts of radiation that were released. It is certainly true there werent a lot of monitors on the morning of march 28th, the day of the accident. The utility that operated the plant, metropolitan edison, had the plant surrounded up to 12 miles. That wasnt enough to be sure how much radiation escaped. It is also true that if large amounts of radiation had escaped from the plant, that it would have shown up. After the first day of the accident, there was there were helicopters that the department of energy was operating that traced the plume. There were measurements being done not only by the utility but also by the nrc, by epa, by the food and drug administration, by the state of pennsylvania. If radiation in large amounts escaped, it would have shown up in the water. If there had been large amounts of iodine 131, it would have shown up in milk. So you cant hide radiation. If there are large amounts, they would have shown up. The studies that have been done, there are controversies and conflict, but the best of those studies, or the study that has the best data, that has the best base for understanding what happened in terms of illness of the population, studied a cohort of more than 32,000 residents who lived around the plant within a 5mile radius. Studied them for a period of 20 years. In those cases, those 32,000 people had been interviewed by the state department of health for previous exposures to radiation, where they were during the accident. So it is a really splendid database. That study has shown no increase in cancer above normal rates. Im sorry that i cant address your specific question. Im sorry for the illness of your family. Theres no guarantee, and we never know exactly what causes those kinds of illnesses. The chances that it came from radiation that escaped from the plant are unlikely. Our guest is samuel walker. Former historian for the Nuclear Regulation association. Also, author of three mile island. Walt is joining us from pittsburgh. Good morning. Caller good morning. Yes, i was there around 2002. It is not just the accident but the greed involved. The one plant up there caused a huge blackout. What happened is they shut down the large area. That was the greed of the plant manager and the people involved, trying to make themselves look good. The other one was up in ohio, a Nuclear Plant, same company, where the hedge was going bad. Instead of doing anything, they waited until the last minute. Fortunately, there wasnt a lot of damage done, but i believe them heads is Something Like i dont know the exact price 250 million . Rather, the guy running the plant didnt get it fixed, he caused more trouble waiting until the last minute. Thats what ive seen. I worked in steel mills. Id rather work in a Nuclear Plant. Steel mills in the 70s and 80s and 90s were way more dangerous than Nuclear Plants. Walt, thanks for the call. All the lessons we learned from three mile island and other incidents, there are still problems. Thats why we need strong regulation. The industry is doing a much better job, a much stronger job of regulating itself, especially company management. We also learn that we have to be humble because Nuclear Plants are large and complicated. Theyre hazardous. So we have to live with that. There are no theres no guarantee, and there was never any guarantee, even back in the early 50s when the Nuclear Power industry was first beginning. No one was saying, at least no one in a responsible position, was saying an accident is impossible. They were saying it is unlikely. Were going to do everything we can to make certain it doesnt happen. No one in their right mind could say there would never be an accident. Even in more recent times, less than 40 years, im a historian, so anything less than 40 years is recent times for me, things still go wrong. We welcome our viewers on cspan3s American History tv. 48 hours of history every weekend on cspan3. You can check out the schedule on our website. Lets go to robert in las vegas. Good morning. Caller good morning, gentlemen. Mr. Walker, i look forward to reading your book. What a coincidence because i was with jim nelson and michael douglas. We made the movie the china syndrome. Are you familiar with that movie . Oh, yes. Yes, i start my book with that movie. Caller well, what a terrible coincidence. The movie, when we released that, three days after that was released, the Nuclear Physicist was on television. He said the chances that we were depicting in that movie was 1 in 100 million or more. Well, then three mile island, total of ten days, we heard about the what was going on there. Now, i was undercover. I checked all Nuclear Power plants all over the world. Now, were trying to deal with all of the waste, like here in nevada. If youre familiar with what theyre trying to do about that. Robert, let me jump in very quickly. Explain specifically your role or involvement in the film the china syndrome. Caller i did the research on all the Nuclear Power plants. To be honest with you, i think they should all be shut down and just go to other kinds of fuel. Because there is never a catastrophe that one like in japan, with all of the radiation and the water and all of the fish that became sick. You know, it just to me, weve got so many other ways to go. You know, im not one to say, but it would be a lot safer. Now i notice on the screen youre showing the china syndrome. So i just wanted to say hello. I appreciate the fact that youre on here discussing it with the people. There is a serious oh, look at chernobyl, that happened. Horrible, too. Thats all i wanted to say. I appreciate you gentlemen bringing all of these facts to the public. Robert, thanks for adding your voice. Again, going back to the film that came out just about a week and a half before tmi. It came out a week and a half before. When the accident occurred in harrisburg, it was being shown still in two theaters in harrisburg area. They put on extra showings on friday and saturday nights, which were the most tense days, the most anxietyfilled days of the five days of crisis after the accident occurred. The accident occurred. On those two nights, the two theaters in harrisburg put on extra showings of the china syndrome. Apparently, the theaters were packed. For those extra showings. Lets go to linda in minneapolis. Robert, thanks for adding. What a great addition to the program. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that, sir. Linda, go ahead. Caller good morning. I have a couple of questions. I think theyre pretty quick to answer, maybe. The first one, and perhaps the most important, is or the more important one is i wondered if there was any information about how this problem of Nuclear Waste can be safely solved. I mean, is this unsolvable . And, i mean, it seems like it just never goes away. What to do with the waste. Then the second one, which maybe has a connection to it, is what is the status of the haneford plant in East Washington . Thank you, linda, well get a response. Yeah, those are great questions. I did write a book on radioactive waste some time after my book on three mile so the history of that is in there and it was not well handled by the Atomic Energy commission, nrcs predecessor or successor agencies and the scientists, these are good scientists, think theres a technical solution thats reasonable. Youre never going to get a solution that satisfies everybody. The political problem, probably is more insoluble than the technical issues. In terms of hanford, hanford is still undergoing a large cleanup. The hanford plants, aec and its successor agencies at least for a long time did not did not handle radiation hazards as carefully as they should have. Its being cleaned up. The government is spending a lot of money to clean it up. Its a lot better 25 years ago and still has a long way to go. Joslin from arizona, good morning, youre on with sam walker. Caller hi, mr. Walker, i want to know if lack of water in the reactor had anything to do with the problem. Thank you. If the water the lack of water if the lack of water had anything to do with the reactor, itself. Lack of water had a lot to do with the fact that the reactor melted down. What the water does is to keep the plant cool. The normal operating temperature for a Nuclear Power plant, at least a pressurized water reactor, is 600 degrees. And if you lose the coolant, then you have a problem and thats exactly what happened when that valve stuck open. In terms of anything to do with the water, no, there was a loss of feed walter and there was the initial event that caused the valve to open which then didnt close. I want to underscore a point we talked about in the first half hour of this program. This plant was brandnew. Bl it operated for a total of about three months. So the lesson from that is . The lesson from that is build it right. You know, there were lots of questions raised and lots of investigations done after the accident occurred. Both by the nrc, by the commission which was the president ial commission, by the state of pennsylvania, by congress, and lots of other people and they said, why was this plant licensed, there were things that werent clear. And those were valid questions because utility, it turned out, was not well equipped to operate that plant. But according to all the licensing parameters that governed the licensing of plant, it met those standards. And that accident came as a huge shock to everyone because it did meet standards. And yet you had a major, major accident. The book is titled three mile island a Nuclear Crisis and historical perspective. Our guest, scott walker. Thank you so much for being part of the program. Thank you, its a pleasure to be here. Senator, best to your brother. Thank you. All week were featuring American History tv programs as preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Lectures in history. American artifacts. Reel america. The civil war. Oral histories. The presidency, and special event coverage about our nations history. Enjoy American History tv now and every weekend on cspan3. Weeknights this month, were featuring American History tv programs as preview of whats available every weekend on cspan3. Tonight, a look at world war ii. We begin with High School Teacher karen kabana on food rationing during the war and innovations that led to modern day processed food. She then discussed wartime policies dealing with farm labor shortages and food rationing on the home front. Watch American History tv starting at 28 00 p. M. Eastern n cspan3. Sunday at 9 00 a. M. Eastern, a washington journal and sq American History tv live special callin program looking back at woodstock, 1969 cultural and musical phenomenon. Historian david farber, author of the book the age of great dreams america in the 1960s joins us to take your calls. Drugs matter, but who takes those drugs, why the drugs have the effect they did in the 60s and early 70s is, again, something were still wrestling with as scholars to understand. The technology of drugs, we got David Courtwright in here, some other people, have thought long and hard asht this, bout this, imperative of the understanding of not just of the 60s but the production of history, what drugs we use in a given period and place have an incredible ability to change the direction of a given society. Call in to talk with david farber about the social movements of the 60s leading up to woodstock and its legacy. Woodstock 50 years sunday at 9