As you all know education doesnt always grab headlines and that is certainly the case this time around two and that being said, there are consequential issues and big policy ideas that are being talked about as part of these campaign and to help us make sense of whats going on we have a group of panelist with us today already, arne duncan served as secretary of education from 2009 to 2015. I believe he was the ninth secretary and the department history. Hes a managing partner and a nonresidency and dr. John king served as the secretary of education from 2016 till 2017. And doctor king is the president and ceo of the education trust. To help guide our discussion we have alison klein, the assisting editor for education. Her current beat is the workforce issues and for many years shes covered education, and policies in washington and beyond. With that i will welcome the three of you to our stage and headed over to allison. Up applause thanks for joining us im thanks for joining us im happy to introduce these gentleman here because they need no introduction to know them well. We are going to dive right into questions. I know you both been following the campaign and senator sanders called from a moratorium on Charter Schools. I know you both been supportive of charter in, fact secretary king was principle before your time at the education. Do you worry that the Current Trump administration embrace of choice has put charters on Democratic Institutions in parents and teachers . Well, its not their current policy around choice but its also secretary and history around choice. The reality is that there are really high profile charters that are contributing very positively to the public educational landscape and we think about charter sector in boston and new york and on the other hand there was a charter sector that was terrible like the sector in michigan. And secretary has a history of being a champion of a low regulation and low oversight and low accountability for charters and so as a result in michigan you had a very affiliation in turners and 80 and schools that exist and take advantage of community. It was so hostile and low incoming students frequent and people are right to be skeptical of the administration. We as democrats cant blame our policy choices and shouldnt be swayed by that and there are amazing Charter Schools and were very low performing charts. The democrats as citizens and want more good schools for mitt and it is the wrong frame. Youve said one of your biggest regrets was not getting a big new pre kindergarden investment of the finish line during your tenure. In that youve had something much more ambitious in mind. Has there been enough discussion on that issue in the democratic primary . Should the next president whether its in four years or eight years take up the administrations law on this . Why were you not able to get it done . I was put both in my successes category and my failures. We got additional billion dollars to provide access to the hundreds and thousands of three and fouryearolds across the country and they had done nothing in the space or proud about that. We would love to have had ten or 20 billion dollars and race at the top competition to come in and we had 36 states what we only funded half of the first 18. One of the states that we couldnt wait to extend prek was mississippi and that governor was governor bryant who is hard and conservative and we agree on 10 of issues who was broken hearted and couldnt stand prek in mississippi. I remember that phone call like it was yesterday. The fact that theyre usually 49 or 50 on the indicator and some huge desire demand was there from the republicans and democrats across the country they couldnt get congress to step more. I am biased, i think if i wanted additional tax dollar in education that i wouldve had high quality prek. I think its absolutely important for kids. It applies to an economist in chicago and on every dollar we get back seven dollars and less dropouts and more High School Graduates and all of our scarce tax dollars i dont know how often we can back seven dollars that we put in so that would be the top but its the United States which ranks 28 or 29th relative to other countries and providing access to prek and we should be absolutely ashamed as a country that we send so many five year olds to kindergarten a year to 18 months behind and this education often dont catch those kids up because people are dropouts but yes we should debate it and put it out there and its not a democratic principle but is getting our babies off to a good start and theres nothing on that. I would just add, we have proposed in the Obama Administration the 75 Million Dollar cost over ten years to access to prek for low income fouryearold and Congress Said that was too expensive. The very same members of Congress Went on to vote for tax cuts for the top 1 . This is a question of what we care about and willing to invest in. Were in universal prek for three and four year olds and we also need a Huge Investment in zero to three. We need a much better access to Quality Childcare with low income families and communities of color. That is all doable in this wealthiest existing country on the face of it. Speaking of money weve seen a number of proposals that can ramp up the federal share of education. Do you think that is the right way to go . Or is it more money from additional accountability . laughs we always do this both of us are polite. I think there is an opportunity to blend or connect a significant new investment of dollars with smart policies around strengthening schools we, need both. The history is at states that have done both together see the benefits and i think about massachusetts in 1993. They passed the education reform act and had a huge infusion with these communities along with raising standards for teaching and for learning and investing in professional development and teacher appropriation and they also included significant Accountability Measures where the state was able to take action on schools and the result is that it went from somewhere in the middle of the pack to the performing state my hope would be that the administration would put in a very significant dollars around the title one but also pair that with efforts to increase School Integration and efforts to make sure that kids have access to diverse, quality teachers. Efforts to make sure that all kids have access to a well rounded curriculum that includes art, music and social studies. We have to think about the more dollars and conjunction with the things that we now make a difference for kids. Education we have these either or debates but we need and. We need more traditional schools and more people in college and prepared for careers its always both. You cannot be pro teacher and want more money for teachers and not quality. New pro for poor kids and not explicitly be saying we need more poor children to graduate from high school and going to college. You have to as john you have to pair these things and these values are not in conflict, in fact they complement each other. On a related note, another number of candidates said they want to have funding to increase teacher salaries. Its a big proposal that senator harris put out for instance. They both championed when you are in office which was teacher evaluation based on student progress and test scores. Should the government be boosting teacher salaries if states and districts dont . Should they be on the hook for Something Like that . Again, she different kinds of evaluations play into that . Do you feel like the teacher pay crisis has gotten so bad in places that its kind of needed no matter what . Ill try to come out is a couple of different ways. Its a number of states in North Carolina and arizona and you go down the list where weve had republican administrations have starved public education. Teacher pay as not kept up with the inflation of the average. There was a teacher in d. C. , from North Carolina who is actually selling blood and looking to make ends meet. That is unconscionable we, we should be painted years more that uses federal dollars to push states to invest more as well. But as we do that the two things we have to do alongside is one is we have to diversify the profession and the majority of our kids are kids of color and 18 of our teachers are teachers of color and 2 of our teachers are African American men we know that matters for kids of color and access a teaches of color and African AmericanElementary Schools at least one teacher is more likely to graduate in high school or go to college. Its important for white kids to see teachers from color and their communities so a smart comprehensive strategy to include with diversifying the profession. Making sure we get the strongest teachers they get their greatest needs and we want to have incentives that attract people to work in a high needs communities. That attract people to work and pursue fields of study where they have huge shortages. Secondary staff, bilingual teachers, teachers with disabilities that you get at the secondary level and imagine structuring a package that accomplishes the goal of reasons of lifting all boats and also trying to get at some of these challenges. Thats a huge point i want to emphasize. If we think of the Great Teachers that matter and most in this room do. If you think great principles matter. I get the principle of local control and understand thats based on that but we have 15,000 School District in our country. I dont know if any single district in america with systemically find and identify the best principles and teachers and play somewhat kids in the community with the most health. We really do think that teachers and principals matter that teachers change kids lives, its a little stunning to me that not one teacher is taken a step that john is talking about. Speaking of my next question very well its obviously an issue that is in the democratic debates in something that both you value diverse and what we are talking about right before we came in here. How much power to do both feel you had a secretary to influence that discussion . Beyond i know youre drawing attention but what do you think a new administration could do to help go through that problem . We both tried to talk about the importance of the thing that communities have and to have socioeconomic integration and proposed congress 120 Million Dollar fund to support local efforts to integrate schools. Again, we heard from members of congress that its too expensive but then they put all their money to the top 1 . Problem is a missed opportunity that is still out there. Senator murphy have been real champions of that effort in the strength and diversity act and that is an opportunity that this administration would have. There are ways to think about how you link other programs and other federal funding trips to the goal of diversity. Whether its diversity in charters and things as an area and emphasis for the Charter School program. We think of an area as emphasis on how they might use title one dollars. Expanding the Magnets School program. Theres a lot of that federal funding thats available but hasnt been used since the early to mid 1980s. Theres also a need for real enforceable Rights Enforcement from the department of education and the justice system. Districts are doing things intentionally and exacerbate segregation and got to take action on that for civil rights law. I think john did a much better job than i did of talking about this at the forefront and getting into the nuances of the federal incentives that could be put in place. We were talking backstage, not all of this takes any money. Sometimes its as simple as redrawing School Boundaries around schools that dont cost a penny. Now its politically very difficult to challenge and we live in a country where People Choose to self segregate and places to be and have less diversity. Federal incentives help but trying to get parents and students to understand and benefit not for black its or latino kids but for the benefits of having drivers for all kids. There is a larger thing beyond money that gets to some of the challenges in our country that we struggle with around race and diversity and that are hard to talk about that you cant dealing that in this conversation were having. Other proposals weve seen a lot including from senator sanders on free college for everybody. Other candidates like former Vice President biden are mentioning something in Free Community college which is something that the Obama Administration during your tenure secretary duncan mention an office. What do you think the strategy should be . Should the government be on the hook for all college for all kids . Just a portion of it . Shouldnt it be for everyone or just low income kids . Before i did free college i would do free prek. I would prioritize just to start but secondly, free college again is not even a democratic idea and the best is tennessee. And Governor Haslam and they are a hallmark there and investment in the greatest resources in the human capital. I do think the k to 12 model in education in america is obsolete. I think we should move to a prek to 14 model. There are comport Surrey High School reports and middle class for the past hundred years that are insufficient from the next ten or at least 50 and have to get off to a good start. You get a good job with a High School Diploma is pretty rare these days. You have Community College strange and and some form of Higher Education which has that goal. The thing that troubles me in this debate is actually a teacher pay debate which is that we talk about the results come with the higher sign a possibility. Theres a whole bunch of colleges i would send students to but a whole bunch of colleges i dont want anyone to go to our shouldnt go for free. They are not learning anything. Those colleges are getting rich and people are unaware situation and we started. For me, thinking about Community College and not just for the teens for but for the 50 year olds that are coming back and you have to talk about results. People just being admitted to college or actually walking at the back end with skills. Lasting all say on this is that we try and totally failed on this. All of our funding for Higher Education was 100 percent which went to enrollment. We dont do a penny of grants for those that are increasing their education rates and its a first generation. Not even more money but changing how you Fund Education just a little bit of money around outcomes was a huge change of that zero. I agree completely with the completion agenda and the reality is we have a College Dropout crisis. Every ten white students who start a bachelor degree program, six will graduate and every ten latino students that start a program five people have graduated six years later. Every ten African American students that start to program four will graduate and we have college and Community Colleges around the country in the teens and if that is a problem there are on schedule so its actually to finish and requires investment and policy change. That authorization observation out make is in details and as you know looking across the states. There are states that say they are free college but what they mean by that is that its a tiny little bit of money for middle and upper income students to get subsidies for tuition. They have done nothing for the low income students. Because the last Dollar Program and their structure doesnt match the tuition with any further investment in the kinds of support that low income students need. We have students in colleges that are hungry and that are homeless and we should be talking about the total cost of college and not just tuition. So that details matter and those states that have all kinds of catches in the Free College Program. If you move to another state or Free College Tuition converts and to a loan, lots of fine print and that is a problem. Im glad were having this conversation about investing in public higher act. Probably nine out of ten states they are higher ed than they were in 2008. We should talk about invest in public hiring and talk about making everything accessible for everyone. The details of the policy matters and we have to find a way that is focused on low income students and students of color who are most vulnerable in our current Higher Education system. Two quick adds. I love hanging out with him, he gets me thinking. If you look at the trends and if you look at any state over the past ten or 20 years. Look at the percent increase or decrease going to hire ed or look at the increase for incarceration. Every single state across the country and the rate of increase on the consultation is going much faster and any education. We accept that and dont debate that and its just like a given. We will lock someone up at 60,000 dollars but debate forever on a little bit more teacher pay. I want to challenge us as voters with the spectrum to think about the larger challenge i have on so much of this is take free college as an example. Free college is a strategy and we dont have to talk about goals. For me, what is the eagle . It is