Transcripts For CSPAN3 Fall Of Berlin Wall 30th Anniversary 20240713

Special report on the night of november 9, 19 89. 30 years later, we are remembering that earth and concrete shattering day. Gallery,he berlin wall from the newseum and washington, d. C. It is our home for the next three hours on washington journal on cspan and cspan3. Were asking you to share your own memories. Give us a call and let us know fall meantrlin wall to you. If you live in eastern or central time zones, the number to call is 202 7488000. Mountain or pacific time zones, 202 7488001. At a special phone number for germanamericans this morning that number 202 7488002. If you want to send us a text this morning, that number is 202 7488003. If you do, please include your name and where you are from, and of course you can catch up with us on social media, on twitter cspanwj, and on facebook. We welcome you to the berlin wall gallery here at the newseum. The largest unaltered portions of the berlin wall are here, outside of germany. Of small part of a Network Barriers that once separated west berlin from east berlin and communist east germany. In total, the wall wrapped around west berlin for 96 miles, including 27 miles through the heart of the city. By 1989, the wall consisted of 45,000 concrete walks, 259 pathways controlled by guard dogs, 302 watchtowers and 30 bunkers. The barrier stood more to keep people in rather than keep people out, and at least 100 40 people were killed at the wall, trying to escape the communist for the freedoms of the west. The wall has been gone for longer than it stood, but we are asking you to join in this morning to give us your thoughts and memories of that day and what you watched that day 30 years ago, 1989. Lets start with todd from brentwood, california. Good morning to you. Your memories from that day . Caller i remember it well. It was a great day. I remember reagan, the anticommunist warrior champion, mr. Gorbachev, tear down this oc and the rest of the squad is watching this, wasie sanders socialism such a devastating failure. Cuba, venezuela, china, russia even the scandinavians are running away from it tremendously. We have such a generational divide here in america concerning socialism. They seem to be predisposed in favor of it. They do not know mao or stalin. Socialism is a lucre. Host on an anniversary like this, is this a day that can bridge the generational divide that you are worried about . Caller if they are watching, but they are not. Is such a loser worldwide and i forgot what i was going to say because you interrupted me. Host i appreciate the call this from brentwood, california. Brent out of houston, texas. Good morning. Caller good morning. World war ii and the sherman tate, we won world war ii basically because we had expressed ourthe tanks and we had better tanks men. The germans today, they invest. They treat their schools as repositories and they invest in their people. In america, we dropped the ball. Not invest and use our institutions, especially our high schools, elementary schools, and even prek as repositories. Institutions of knowledge. We do not have welltrained teachers who have National Full certification. Germany has done that. Their people,s in in their institutions, they produced some of the best instruments and machinery in the world, and this is a country that people demonize so much. Yet they came together. The east germans have always been accused of steroids and performance enhancement drugs at the time, the east germans were always some of the best athletes for that. Today, we deal with the same issue of performance enhancement drugs and testing. We have to look at germany as a world prayer. And they have a female world leader. They are very progressive, people who use the word socialist and all of these other stigmatizing phrases to neutralize peoples innovation, we are not just about classical education, we do not just need to know about plato and socrates, but we need to know about the innovators of the world, the albert einsteins and educators who taught people to think. Host got your point, don in houston. You started talking about going back to world war ii and the history there. We want to take viewers back to thisworld war ii europe, film from the nato Information Services back in 1962 talked about how germany and specifically berlin were divided after world war ii. Heres that clip. [video clip] until such time germany could reshape her own destiny, she would be divided into separate sounds of occupation, each controlled by an allied power american, british, french, russian. Economically, she would be treated as a whole. This the victors had agreed when they met to decide the future of germany. Even then, some had reservations about mutual trust. With a world war just over, they had to trust one another, or else begin another war. For berlin, it was to be each power with its sector, but the city would be open to all the powers until germany once again berlin once again resumed its role as head of the german state. Access to the city for other powers was agreed on through roads, railways, and corridors. Makeshift, perhaps, but it was never meant to be permanent. In berlin, they set up a by day,ters where, day officers of the four Occupying Powers would administer berlin by cooperation, joint agreement as to what was to be done and how. And frankly, what was to be done in starting again from scratch. Host the birthplace of the berlin wall, august 12, 1961. It stood for over 28 years. Today it has been gone longer than it stood. We are talking about the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Getting your thoughts and memories of that day, november 9, 19 89, and your thoughts about the legacy of the wall. This is rich out of hickory hills, illinois. Good morning. Caller good morning. I remember with the berlin wall, there was always a very dramatic scene of people escaping and the east berlin, the east German Police shooting, killing them. It was designed to keep the people from escaping and from the ideas getting into change the country. That whole kind of lifestyle that existed over there at that time, you know, thats the way it was projected to the rest of the world. Every time there was somebody escaped out of east germany, there was the stories of horrific conditions that they and it was aknow, anderent kind of mentality how to change that, you know, wall,ity to take down the Ronald Reagan, you know, telling them to take down the ideas andhe political Lifestyle Changes that were the issues at the time, unlike the issues of our time here. These issues are significantly different for the cause and effect of our wall and what it is supposed to do, what are we trying to accomplish . Those ideas have to be looked at, what works and what doesnt work, do you know what i mean . Host rich, we appreciate the call from illinois this morning. The president visiting the wall, the escape attempts from east berlin to west berlin, topics we will be talking about over the course of the next three hours on washington journal on cspan, nn American History tv o cspan3. We are live from the berlin wall gallery, just down the road from capitol hill, where our studio usually is. Most importantly, we want to hear from you, your memories of that day, november 9, 19 89, and what you think the legacy of the wall has been over the past 30 years. This is carl over providence, rhode island. Good morning. Yeah, hi. Im a germanamerican and at that time, i was 38 years old. I remember it vividly, actually. Primarily to be given to Ronald Reagan and the reagan, because his administration, starting in 1981, if i remember correctly, was the only administration that went on the offensive against the soviet , moving up their Missile Forces there and western europe europe, in western germany with the pershing one, wo, and ballistic missiles. They were nuts, because the pershings could have hit moscow in five minutes. You talked about over their postworld war ii. I am going to give you real history and fake history. Fake history is when they were brave men, they said dday was the turning point in world war ii. Baloney. The turning point in world war andas the battles of kursk the battles of stalingrad. Those battles were larger than the entire western front of world war ii. The russians lost over 20 Million People and the germans, my people, lost about five to 6 Million People 5 million to 6 Million People. The loss was the largest in the history of military warfare. That is fake history. You see these people going on tv , talking about dday, dday, is veryn particular, nice lady, martha maccallum, reading all the text. Not knowe sure she did anything about military history. I could be wrong, but i know you know, i have seen you on tv. Talked before,ve you called and made that point before as well. I appreciate you calling in this morning on the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Carl calling in on that line we set aside for germanamericans this morning. Is that02 7488002, number. Phone lines are split regionally. 202 7488000 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. 202 7488001 if you live in the mountain or pacific time zones. You join us throughout the morning, until 10 00 a. M. Eastern we will be talking about the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Chuck from west babylon, new york. Do you remember where you were when you heard about the fall of the wall . Caller well, i was actually watching it on tv at the time, but two years prior i had taken andip to germany and berlin had visited east and west, and it was such a stark difference between the two sides. It was very depressing going into the ddr and watching how they had to live over there under that rule. Moneyforced to change my to ddr money, which was not exchangeable back to the currency, so you can see how they were struggling to survive back then, just because they were pulling in any kind of tourism they could, forcing them to change the money, and it was such a solemn, sad place to be at the time, 1988, compared to west berlin, which was such a bustling, hustling, beautiful city with all of these cultures and artwork and freedom going on. Watching it come down a few years later, i have pictures of myself reaching up to the top of i never expected to years later for that wall to come down. It was very emotional for me because actually after being there, seeing the differences in the way of life, it was really wonderful to see it actually come down and for there to be freedom once again. For berlin to be connected. Host talk about reaching up to the top of the wall. Why you wanted to do that when you did that. There is so much history of people wanting to touch the wall and be at the wall, both when it was up and to have pieces of it when it came down. Why did you want to do that when the wall was still up . An it was just very comprehensible, how something could just divide a nation in and to look up to it and try to reach up to it and say wow, this is incredible. This is crazy. Then you see the memorials of people whocrosses, were shot because they tried to get out, and they have landmines there, and it is mind blowing because it is nothing like you see in america. Host chuck, thank you. Walter out of penrose, colorado. Chuck said he watched the fall of the berlin wall live. We have a poll on our twitter and our cspanwj American History twitter page. 65 of our respondents said they have watched it live, 9 heard about it by reading the newspaper or the radio the next day. 22 learned about it after the fact. ,ou can join in at cspanwj call us this morning, plenty of ways to join us the conversation. You can also send us a text, it is 202 7488003. We will look for those texts as well as we hear from walter in colorado. Good morning. Caller yes, born and raised in mother, mygerman father was an american g. I. I grew up over there, saw the fall of the wall on tv, of course, living in america now i want to reiterate, of course, that the soviets did take that wall down not because they wanted to and released the Eastern Europe and eastern germans, but because they had to. For us not to forget that it was Ronald Reagan that actually pushed the issue, to have all that stuff disbanded. We still dont give enough credit you see on the tv, there are the tanks pointing weapons that one another so i wanted to reiterate that. Host we will show you more from president reagans famous speech at the wall a little later this morning in the washington journal. We want to keep hearing from you, your memories from that day how you learned about it. It was a bit out of norfolk, virginia. Good morning. Out of norfolk, virginia. Good morning. Elizabeth, are you with us this morning . We will try elizabeth one more time. Go ahead. Caller can you hear me . Host yes, go ahead. About howam thinking many people died in the cold war and how in the grand scheme of history, that wall was up for such a short period of time, but how much misery it caused and people died because of it, and i just member feeling very sad, sad for all the pointless deaths and misery that that thing inflicted. Host is there one that you are member you watch the history of the wall . Plenty of news reports and attempts to have the media there when some of these escapes happened. Is there one in particular you remember . Caller i agree with the gentleman a couple callers back, saying the people who are getting shot when they tried to escape i was thinking about those people and thinking, i guess they didnt die for nothing, but man. If they had only waited, you know . Maybe in the natural course of things it would have ended for them, but when you are that desperate, you do not wait. Host 30 years ago, the beginning of the followed the wall. Your member where you were that day . Caller absolutely. I was sitting on my couch in san diego, california, waiting for andbirth of my second son watching cnn. I used to get really emotional at the news back then and i was crying. It was a momentous occasion and i felt so bad for all those lives who had been lost. Host elizabeth, thank you for the call this morning, from nor foe, virginia. Our caller from flushing, new york. Good morning. Was in berlin in 1987, so i had a chance to see the wall and the crossings from the westside to east, and one thing we are missing from this discussion is people are praising Ronald Reagan. Without gorbachev, this would not have happened. Of course, reagan said bring down the wall, but we should not ignore the other side who was extending his hand, gorbachev. He agreed with him. Without that, that would have never have happened. [inaudible] the same historical incident we might have applied here, but there are no leaders on both sides who said ok, if china will agree now to be united, that is what we have to think. What is happening in berlin 30 years ago is not happening right now. It should be leaders, it should be compromising. That is what we learned from reagan and gorbachev. I want to give credit to gorbachev, because without him this never would have happened. Believe it or not. Host thanks for the call. Elizabeth, two calls back, and some other colors this morning talking about those who died in the escape attempts over the berlin wall. Fromowed you an excerpt the nbc news special report that ran on november 9, 1989, that the coverage. T of they put together a compilation of some of the east berlin a attempts. We want to show our viewers that now. [video clip] for the past 28 years when it was not possible to prosper just or skate cross bridges or scale that wall, people try to escape any way they could. Attempts were a testament to their bravery, ingenuity, and desperation. First it was literally a tugofwar between the long arm of the oppressor and the desire for freedom. This woman made it. Many more did not. Almost 200 east germans have died trying to cross the wall, or the long border between east and west germany. For each person fleeing, there was that moment of terror when he or she was a target or the Border Guards. But still, they came. Sometimes well laid plans worked , the escape was successful. But we should not forget those who tried and failed. That from the nbc special report that aired today, the 11 30 broadcast that evening, eastern time. This morning on the washington journal, we are live in the newseums berlin wall gallery, taking your calls and getting your memories of 30 years ago. We divided the lines regionally, 202 7488000 for eastern or central time zones. 202 7488001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. 202 7488002 for the special line we have set aside for germanamericans on this day, california, and has been waiting period good morning. Waiting. Good morning. Caller good morning. I consider the fall of the berlin wall the greatest single world events during my lifetime. I was five years old when the berlin wall went up, and i remember even at that very early age, it made a very profound impression on me, and i think such anwhy i developed intense hatred of communism. I thought, what kind of people would do this . Jfki really feel like should have called the russians on the hotline and told them, you terror that wall down or we will send our tanks and to tear in ton send our tanks tear it down. Later on in life i became very active in conservative politics and a large part of the reason was my intense hatred for mean, im, and also i think i learned about the fall of the wall on television and i was just thrilled to death. I was probably jumping up and down in my living room i was so happy. I am at least partially of german ancestry, so for me, that tolds a particular resonanc importance for me. My ancestors came over, came to the United States a very long time ago and i believe they came from what later became western germany, but it still meant a tremendous deal to me. What wasappalled by done and so thrilled to death, i think i was so happy i was jumping up and down in the living room of my house. Be 64 only from now, and i consider that the greatest event, world event during my lifetime, the fall of the berlin wall. Host jim, happy early birthday to you, thank you for your call this morning. Body out of North Carolina claudia out of North Carolina is next. Caller good morning. I am also calling as a german, and a german professor and global studies director at a school in North Carolina in durham. For me as a german, i was a graduate student at the university of Southern California in linguistics in german and my advisor came that for the first class and said, did you know what happened last night . He was a former east german. The wall came down. Crazy . We dids he not have tv. That time, with the social media and all that, it was not that prominent. Wesaid from the computer, need to find out and call people. We called some people over there, but could not get through. Werenally got through and looking at regular tv screens, that the wall had come down and of course there was coverage from all over, on the radio. On the next day on campus, at the university of Southern California, in our department so happy,as cheering, with disbelief. I went back a month later to see my brother, who was in west germany, and we went for the First Time Ever in our lives over to the east, and my father was a prosecutor in the west. He was not allowed to go to the east and we also could not go to school for the west, because there was a chance we could have arrested,rogated or and that would have been held against the west German Government. Ever, i sett time foot on the side i had only seen those for myor grandfathers side, who had sisters who had sisters you sent us books from the east. Host claudia, finish your thought. Caller yes. Host i was going to ask you before you go, this anniversary, the 30th anniversary, how should it be remembered . Wall beld the remembered . Is today a day of somber remembrance . What is the right mood for today . We will be talking about that later in our program. Caller i am getting ready for homecoming at our university, and today and yesterday, we had a big discussion the day before, what should we do . Of course, there are different voices. We want to commemorate the suffering that has happened, but also the people who came over here. On the other hand, we did a vote in class should it be the ninth of november or the third of october that we celebrate the reunification . Also want to commemorate the holocaust, the end of the holocaust, because that is the official unification of germany. This is an event that we really have used to try to unite people, but we did a lot of research, interviewed people, and many people today say germany is not yet new to five unified. There is a division and we are breaking apart. I am honestly more comfortable going to the eastern part because i feel that people are much more of a community in a that thei feel also history and all that, and the today, itguage, so was a rediscovery and dictatorships it shows the wall is but a symbol of another dictatorship in a way, and i just want to say it is a major event and i am still in disbelief that it happened. Claudia, thank you so much for your call this morning, sharing your thoughts. You mentioned two important days, the fall of the wall, the beginning of the fall of the berlin wall 30 years ago today and that october 3 reUnification Day. We have the New York Times newspapers from november the 11th, two days afterwards, the addition that came out on the the edition that came out two days after the fall. Joy is to east german sports through wall, party pledges freedoms and west exults is the headline. We were also able to get the october 4 edition of the New York Times on the , two germanys unite after 45 years with tribulation and a bow of peace and a vow of peace. We want to turn to the executive senior director, curator, and the Senior Vice President at the newseum, kerry kristofferson joining us on set this morning here in the berlin wall gallery. Thank you for allowing us to be here. Guest we are delighted to have you. I wanted you to talk about the focal point of this exhibit and the berlin wall gallery. It is obviously the eighth eightbarriers concrete barriers that once stood as part of the berlin wall. Where did they once stand and how did you get them here . Guest babies as pieces of the wall we have on display came from places we are not 100 certain of. Piecesre not a run of that world together in berlin. The big backdrop to those is a guard tower from near checkpoint charlie. We know fairly precisely where it came from, and those things together with some other pieces a barrier and a will bringtor sign, together our finite interpretation of a slice of what the wall and its supporting materials look like at the time the wall was up. Host the western side of the wall, as you can see this morning, that side that has a lot of the graffiti on it. Can you talk a little bit about that . Have you ever been able to find out who created that graffiti . Guest sure. The western side of the wall, which was still inside what was technically the border of east berlin at the time. Anyone who went and painted any of the graffiti, who went while the wall was Still Standing and so forth, they were on east german soil and were sort of endanger themselves and their that endanger in danger themselves and their to make a point there to make a point. Are two artists that are fairly wellknown graffiti artists, they did a lot of work at and on the berlin wall at the time it was in place. And the rest of the exhibit, the wall as the focal point and the tower as well if you go to the museum, what else we be seeing as you walk through the berlin wall gallery . Guest you approach the while, you see the western side, and it is vibrant and everyones minds i image of what the berlin wall looked like. But if you go around the other side, you get the stark reality of what east berlin was like, the back of the wall is plain, there are a few markings on it here that are more about identification act or the fact that anything that would have been on it at the time, when people were living in east berlin rather than reunifying germany. Thatat sort of makes immediate contrast for people between freedom and oppression. Theme ofeally the uber this gallery, that and the idea that the news cannot be contained by a wall. An wall went up in 1961 and effort as much of anything to keep people in east berlin, and it worked on that front for a while, obviously, about 28 years, right . But it did not keep news from passing through, over, across the wall. You will learn stories in the gallery about how people could obviously get radio across from riaz at the time was a most trusted radio source from the west you could hear in the east, radio and the american sector is what those letters stand for. Waves could cross Something Like a wall. In addition to that, there are up tos of trucks riding the wall on the western side and using loudspeakers to blast the news to people, whether they were listening to their radio or tuned into a television, could get the news from the west. Reports of telephone numbers you could call from east berlin somebody read or have a recording of the western newspapers being read. There were all these mechanisms for getting the news from the west, which was critical, because that was a piece of what was so different between east and west at the time. The eastern news was controlled. It was soviet controlled, communist controlled, and the news in the west was a free press, as we enjoy today. Newseum is shuttering the stores here the doors here on pennsylvania avenue at the end of this year. What is going to happen to this exhibit . After we close to the general public, we will begin the process of deinstalling the pieces here. It will be transferred to our stateoftheart storage facility, most of our areas have offsite storage so we can take care of things properly, and we will continue with the process of figuring out what the next step is, what the next iteration of the newseum is, whether 21st Century Museum looks like, the balance of digital versus physical. Host is there any insight you can give as to what that might look like . Guest we are still discerning, to be honest. We had our museum in rosslyn and closed down and moved here, so we have no idea what we might look like next. Host thank you for joining us on cspan and cspan3. Back to your phone call this morning, we are hearing from viewers about your experience, watching the fall of the berlin november 9,s ago, 1939, your memories of that day. Phone lines, 202, phone lines, 202 7488000 in the central or eastern time zones. 202 7488001 in the mountain or pacific time zones. A special line for germanamericans, 202 7488002. We will also look for your tweets and Text Messages as we hear from bill in maryland. Thanks for waiting. Caller hello, can you hear me . Host yes, go ahead. Er i was a student in host where were you a student, bill . Bill, are you still with us . We will try to get bill back as we go to dan out of jackson heights, new york. Go ahead. Caller i was born in a communist country, a refugee from a communist country. I was in vietnam and i went back to east European Countries for medical school, that this to tell you location means a lot to me, but not in the way most people would think. The communistt system is that it was so corrupt, so based on violence, it was like a big mafia operation. With the russians, of course, on top. Did not down that wall change much of anything, because Eastern Europe is still an extremely corrupt power, still. Peaks louder than principal if you compare west germans and east germans, they still have very negative feelings towards each other and ironically, europeans have no sense of history at all. They do not realize how that happened, why it happened, they do not discuss it. Students at school have no idea what today is, and it is tragic because a lot of young people had their lives cut short. Fighting this cold war. It was not like world war ii, this was a slow process and now if you go to Eastern Europe, you are seeing a lot of what happened there, still looks like what is happening now. I think it is really sad that everybody thinks that there was a liberation going on, because Eastern Europe is as much in trapped now as ever. East germans are as in trapped ever, becauses the opportunities are not the same. Host why is that . Why are the opportunities not the same . Caller there was a certain ness imposed by the leaders, the only thing they are good at is killing other people, and the west, they still did not forgive us. And the corruption in Eastern Europe now is just as bad as it was under communism. Tore is a certain momentum the culture, getting by, and the culture of just getting by, which is a terrible way to spend your life, because you just get one shot at life, 60, 70 years, whatever it is. If i look back from that perspective, i am an old man now, and i feel so many peoples lives were totally wasted for , so we lowlevel type people, mentally and so on, could rule with europe and push europe back so much. My only dream is that russia would come to meet european standards and the eu would become a homogenous space. When the americans forced east germany into the eu, they were worried that the east germans could do a lot of economic competing with us. Eastern europe is a bird or not onwestern europe burden western europe and until eastern and western europe rejoin into one common europe, we are always going to be ironically bound, with the chinese and the russians. I am very candid that the wall is down and everything is ok. In new york this morning, john is out of ferrum, virginia. Go ahead, you are next. Caller hi, how are you . Host i am well, go ahead. I am 31 years old, and the previous caller talked about the lack of education people receive on the subject . Me, i was never taught anything in school. Here in Public Schools in virginia. Theso for me, observing situation on television and division of the state, in this case, makes it mean ted because i it is representative are you still there . Host yes. Caller its really sad and its really scary how the divisiveness between you do not see that stuff where i live in virginia, the conflict and competition, and it is just really shocking. You do not see this sort of stuff you are young, for me in school. Me it is really scary, so anyway, i appreciate you taking my call. Host john, thanks for the call firm virginia this morning. Texts from viewers. This first one from lawrence in st. Paul, minnesota. In germany, a few months after the fall of the wall i recall to discussion on win exposed the west how angry former east germans were over the lies and deceit by their former this text from bill in connecticut, my father was a prisoner of war in germany now is translated and performed there. It was the nonviolence and joy of the moment that was awesome. Bill also sending a text with a picture from the french sector in berlin, dated in 1964. You can see what appears to be that first iteration of the berlin wall in that picture of the french sector, the berlin wall obviously took on several different iterations before it became the 12 foot high concrete barriers that are here at the before the wall became to come down that night november 9, 1989. Robert is next out of tuscaloosa, alabama. Robert, thanks for waiting. Caller i want to give you a different perspective, sir. Descendents, my folks were brought to the United States. That is so hypocritical we talked about Ronald Reagan, that whenypocritical, because he decided to run for president , he went to mississippi, where the people were divided here, where africanamerican people cannot get into Public Schools, so it is so hypocritical. Another thing about the europeans im not talking about all of them, they got to call themselves white, and they defied every country in the world, but they only want to keep the europeans together. They do not want north korea or south korea to get together, people in the middle east or north africa to get together, and it is so hypocritical, and they oppress African Americans in this country. I hear all the white people calling in and they have a different perspective on it from africanamericans, who are older. As old as i am, 80 years old and out. The young ones do not teach true the young ones do not know about it because they do not teach true history in the school. Europeans in the United States who call themselves white, they are so hypocritical. Then they divide africanamericans in this country. Put some host ok, that your point. That is robert in alabama this morning. Maine. In good morning, do you remember november 9, 1989 . Yes, i was a teacher. I worked for the department of defense and i was stationed in germany. I have a piece of the wall in my china cabinet here in maine. I was also a child in germany, after world war ii, and i met people who survived the , so there is a lot of history here. It means a great deal. I went into east germany after the wall came down in fact, my friends and my mother and my son, we actually took a piece of the wall down that day, but we went into this east german restaurant and the owner came up to us and he knelt down in front of me and kissed my hand and said, you are the First Americans to come in to my restaurant, and he was just so pleased. There is a huge difference between postwar germany and the germany after the wall came down. , exchange students. I had one boy from east germany and another from west germany. In my home. ,e lived in a Little Village was veryest german boy spoiled. The east german boy, however, the minute he got up from the table, he said now i do the dishes for you. I said oh, why dont you just go upstairs on the computer with my sons and the other boy . He said oh, no no. I must thank you for the dinner. So lots of change has occurred. I am half german myself, my mother was from oldenburg, and dutchgerman. I have lived half my life in europe, and the germans were so ar weful after the w whoa frau hildebrand taught a subpoena she would take no money. You taught us piano she would take no money, we paid her and coffee and sugar, which after after the war, and the germans were so rightful to the americans for freeing them. And my dads people, his wife survived the nazi death camps. She saw all of her family murdered. She survived, she and her little sister were experiments for the nazis. And of course, when i was teaching, one of my neighbors was a pow. He was very grateful to the americans. He said, they treated us like royalty. They gave us everything, and here we were, prisoners. And he said, i am sure we did not treat your people the right way. So the wall is a symbol, just like we have a wall today, wrongs wall, and it is so , so wrong to divide people in know . Y, you we have too much of that in our world. We need to come together and just love one another. Host bernadine this morning out of maine, thank you for sharing your memories this morning. I want to turn to our phone line now, to berlin, we are joined by aomas spero on the phone, correspondent covering what is happening in berlin today. Thomas spero, thank you so much for your time on a very busy day. Can you describe where you are in berlin and what you have been covering today on this 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall . Guest i am actually in one of the most important berlin wall memorials, right in the center of berlin, the berlin wall ran across this street, just in front of buildings where people used to live. Has become a powerful symbol not only of division and what that division meant for so many families and friends, but also how that division was overcome. Where aal for people, lot of tourists come on a daily basis to try and understand both those elements, not only what happened when germany was divided, when berlin was divided , but also how that division was over, and what exactly happened afterwards. Politicalere the main ceremony, the main political commemoration took place this morning, with Angela Merkel, the german chancellor, the german president , and is well with the president of poland, hungary, the czech republic, and slovakia. That is obviously because of the role those countries and in general Eastern Europe played in the fall of the berlin wall. The u. S. Ambassador to germany is there as well. We have been checking your twitter page this morning, looking at your photos of the coverage. Can you give our viewers a sense of the mood in berlin today . Is this a day of celebration, a somber day of remembrance . What is the mood in the city . Guest both. When the organizers planned the events, not only today but this week, they planned it as a festival. One hand, a sign of celebration, the berlin wall had been fallen three had decades ago. On the one hand, it is certainly a day where germans are celebrating. At the same time, the organizers have clearly stated they wanted this to be an event where germans could also remember and could also discuss. Two other big words that have been very important in the last few weeks and also in particular today, not only because germans have been remembering their personal experiences, what the wall and the fall of the wall meant for them, but also what it means today, what lessons can be drawn from the berlin wall, and what not only germany but other countries are experiencing today. Host a journalist working in berlin today, what do you think those lessons are . You are working in parts of the city where there was not a free press as of 30 years and a day ago. I was actually working along this memorial earlier this week, producing a piece, and one of the things you can learn when you walk. ,hat east German Authorities for a very long time, 28 years that the berlin wall lasted, they were trying to make it stronger and more impenetrable every single time. Everything will time, they realized they were not able to make it completely impenetrable, that people were able in many different ways, and in many cases risking their own lives, leaving everything behind, but many of them were still able to jump or go to the west. That is one of the lessons people have been able to draw here, that walls do not necessarily achieved what they are erected to achieve. When people want their freedom, want more democracy, want to make sure they can live in a free world, there is no wall that can stop them for a very long time. I think that is one of the big conclusions that can be drawn here in particular, but also across the world today. Host thomas spero, before we let you get back to work, it has been a busy day. We appreciate your time. A lot of colors have noted the divisions that still exist between east and west germany today. Can you speak to that . Guest i spent some time in the eastern part of the country. This is certainly a day of celebration, as i said, many germans do acknowledge that the division between east and west is still very much present. Germany has advanced a lot the last three decades, there is no doubt about that, but at the same time, some of those divisions are becoming evident. Some of them are real, salaries, that is an absolutely evident case, eastern germans tend to earn less than west germans, and Political Representation that east german tends to be represented politically less than west germans, but those divisions are also perceived. A perceived difference. You can see any germany, when people tell you they feel as though they were secondclass citizens, many of them feel left behind, they are not the lyrically represented in a way they feel they should, so there are still differences, and that is why german officials have stated on various occasions that even though germany has advanced a lot, the goal of reunification has not been achieved entirely and the challenges that germany has ahead are still very important. Rrow, ahomas spa correspondent for deutsche welle, you can see their english programming on their website, dw. Com. We are asking you your thoughts, your memories of the follow the berlin wall, 30 years ago today. In marion,istina ohio. Caller its christina. Host yes, go ahead. Caller i have lived in east germany and west germany. Inwere naturalized german 1944. We were polish, i am a polish world war ii survivor, born in 1933. We were naturalized so my father could continue working. Then i was separated and i was and i wastal in 1944, taken across the border because the russians were moving in and the germans were evacuating the hospital, so they put me on the train and i ended up in mecklenburg, in germany, without parents. I was about 10 years of age, maybe about 12. A lot of things have happened since then. For ad in east germany total of five years. In 1950, i escaped from behind the iron curtain into west germany. Notice here, i have letters from berlin. I was supposed to show up and go my papers so that i could back to poland, and i did not want to go back to poland. When i escaped, i ended up with a very nice family for about a year. Host how did you escape . Can you talk about that . Caller i crossed the border. I was 17 years of age and i was helped by a lady that had crossed the border many times. Well,me how to first of all they snuck me out of the village, and i had been there since, they had very good people, but the lady who helped me. They snuck me out in the wagon towards a train, and that was the train that i was supposed to board. Me out into a Little Forest area and i walked the rest of the way to a train, and she told me not to make any contact with any russians, with any police or anything on the train. I became acquainted with a lady that was going to escape also. ,e got off at the destination where the train had stopped, and we had to get off. She and i then walked up the street and we saw some women being escorted back to the train. Behind them were about to russians. The women whispered to us, please get into the cafe, they said to get out. We should not be walking because the russians would catch us. We walked in there and we were assisted by the gentleman the gentleman that was running the cafe, he said, what are you doing here . We tried to say we were visiting people in the village and he did not quite believe us. He said, you probably are going to escape. So he said, there is a tall, young man who will come in one door. Look them over real good, he will walk out the other door, and you followcurtain. He led us to this young man. We followed for, i dont know, quite a while. Brook, or a to a i cant think of it right now. He said i will carry you across, but i need payment. To helpi had some money me do this. She had given me some money to give to whoever was going to help me. Host thank you for telling your story. I want to get your thoughts in about 30 seconds on this day, this 30th anniversary after seeing the fall of the berlin wall. Caller i was so happy for the german people. I also see quite a difference between east and west germany at the time. As in germany reppo for right before the war. I was happy for the people. Had something to do with the polish people had something to do with bringing down the wall. I am still corresponding with the people i lived with. I think very highly. I am polish. I met naturalized german for a short time but everyone treated me well. Host thanks so much for your thoughts this morning. We will keep getting your thoughts throughout the morning on the washington journal. Bynext we are joint Georgetown Professor and author Angela Spence to talk about the history and construction of the berlin wall, and events leading up to november 9, 1989. Morph your phone calls on the 30th in nursery. First, president reagans speech from june 12, 1987, 2. 5 years before the wall fell. [video] president reagan the soviets may be coming to understand the importance of freedom. We hear much from moscow about a new policy of reform and openness. Some Political Prisoners have been released. Certain foreign news broadcasts are no longer jammed. Are Economic Enterprises operating with greater freedom from state control. Beginnings of profound changes in the soviet state . Gestureshey token intended to raise false hopes in the west or strengthen the soviet system . We Welcome Change and openness. We believe freedom and security go together. That the advance of human liberty [applause] reagan the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the soviets can make that would be unmistakable. That would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. Gorbachev, ifary you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the soviet union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. [cheers] [applause] president reagan mr. Gorbachev, mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. [cheers] [applause] host back in the berlin wall gallery in washington, d. C. , we welcome Angela Spence, professor of eurasian, russian and Eastern European studies at georgetown university. 9, 1989 november what was the story of that day that led to the images that people around the world saw on their televisions that night . Guest it is great to be on your show. This was not planned by the east German Government. More and more at this point as the revolutions are going on and east germans are fed up, more and more them, 100,000 of them in the summer months were taking refuge in west german emphases in czechoslovakia, hungary and other places. They were trying to go to west germany. The country was hemorrhaging. At some point the leadership decided we have to let people travel. This point anyone between if you are under six or over 70 may be you could travel to the west. Most young adults could not travel. They decided to have a meeting and some new laws allowing east germans to go to the west, west berlin, west germany and see what it is like. It is late at night on the night of november 9. Official withried a piece of paper and he reads it and says soon people will be able to, without a visa, travel to the west. An Italian Journalist is in the audience and he says these germans are all seeing this. The Italian Journalist, and a flat voice, he says immediately. East berliners here this. Thousands left their homes. Some of them were in pajamas. They come with their families and they walked to the wall. The Border Guards are there. They say open the wall. The border guard does not know what to do. He only has instructions about what to do if trying to escape, to shoot people. These people are very peaceful and they are saying open the wall. He calls his superior. They say i dont know what to tell you. The guard himself made the decision. You can read it in the logbook. He says i will open the wall. Everybody streams through. The west berliners are waiting for them because they are waiting on Television Watching on television. It was really one guard deciding i will not kill these people. I will let them go. Host how prepared was the west, the United States, and russia to this announcement and the events of november 9 . Guest no one was well prepared. The soviets werent. They had ducked their heads into the sand and pretend it was not happening. That night of november 9 they tried to call moscow and no one picked up the phone until a couple of hours later. There were no instructions. This is the irony. This was a repressive state with all these laws. It had millions of people informing on each other but they had no preparation for a peaceful change. If you want to call in with your questions about the history of that date and the building of the wall for the 28 years the wall stood, if youre the eastern or central time zones, 202 7488000. Mountain or pacific time zones, 202 7488001. The special line we are keeping open for germanamericans, 202 7488002. Professor, as folks are calling in, remind people who eric honecker and helmut kohl were in their reactions that day. Guest eric honecker had been the leader of east germany since 1971. A very repressive state. He was the one that with the demonstrations started in different parts of east germany in 1989 would have been happy to call the troops out and kill people. The soviets did not let him do that. He was very much out of touch with reality. By november 9, he was no longer the leader of east germany. He had given away to a new leader, but he was well equipped. Helmut kohl was the chancellor of west germany from the christian democratic party. Even helmut kohl the year before the wall came down was asked, do you think you will see german unification . He said, not in my lifetime. Eric honecker said the wall will never come down and this will never happen. Kohl was not prepared for this. When it happened they understood this was a tremendous moment. They knew what they had to do but there was a lot of uncertainty. For a while and not sure the soviets wouldnt counter react, which they didnt. Host preunification happened less than a year later. We are talking early october of 1990. Why so quickly . When was it certain the reunification what happened . Guest once people could travel to the west more and more east germans set i will not stay here. I would rather live in westje germany. An attempt to keep people in east germany, helmut kohl decided to do a strange currency conversion with the east german valuehmark with the same as a west german deutschmark was w which was ridiculous because it wasnt. I think they realized as soon as a unified the country, they would get a hemorrhage of people coming to the west. In the end the soviets did not what unification. They thought you could have reform in east germany. In march they had their first free elections in germany and it would not work. The United States played a key role with the west germans and the soviet union in pushing the unification process forward and a couple should get in a year. Spent,rofessor angela stent, author of russia against the west. We are taking your phone calls this morning. We will start with steve out of webster, massachusetts. I joined the army in 1979. I studied czech, russian and serbian. My wife is also a linguist in the army. We went on the east berlin tour. Someone mentioned how dark it was. What stuck out to me was the 50 caliber bullet holes the soviets had a liver east berlin. They never fixed that up. A lot of unwrap on todays program. The fall of the wall was a large seminal moment in the fall of communism, but people have criticized our role in southeast asia. I heard it referred to as failures in southeast asia. These were our shooting wars against the communists where we gave our blood to fight communism, as well as in korea. You look today and people criticize our southern border. There is a large chinese presence and russian presence in that area, Central America and the caribbean. If you look at our wars in afghanistan and iraq, our enemies are all armed with ak47s, rpgs, foreign weapons provided by the communists. I am 100 e wall polish. My father was a tailgunner and world war ii. I had an uncle killed at anzio. It is a constant battle and it is great the wall fell. Host thanks for that call. Angela stent, the role that the wall plate in the fall of communism . Teeteringmunism was by the time the wall fell. Poland. Started in it started with a peaceful transition. A august of 1989, they had noncommunist government. It was like a series of dominoes falling. Then the hungarians already had moved away from, is him, a government from communism. Symbolism of the wall was so important. Communism had already begun to fall. When the wall fell i think every think accelerated. A couple of weeks later there was a revolution in czechoslovakia, the velvet revolution. Power. Dent came to at the end of the year you last domino falling in romania that was bloody. The leader and his wife are taken, tried and within 24 hours they were shot. What started with a peaceful role revolution and poland ended quite violently in romania. It was one of the most important pieces of it because it symbolized the division of europe. When you dont have a wall everyone can move around in the division erodes. Host east hartford, connecticut. This is david. Caller thank you for cspan. I have a collection of memories from the time. I was 10 years old and never ever football, the harvard crimson losing to the black. Nights, 5620 o i would rather ask a question for the professor. As the teaching of history in germany changed since unification . I will take my answer off the air. Guest thats a great question. Course,germany, of students were taught something complete the different than west germany. They were taught the east germans had actively no responsibility for hitler for the holocaust. That was the responsibility of the capitalists. Had toe walls had fallen completely revise the textbooks in east germany. They did this in conjunction with the west germans so students in both parts of germany had a similar curriculum. The other question is, how do you look on the communist state . You had on the show some sense there are people in the eastern germany that look back on those communist days what is certain about a nostalgia. They forget maybe the worst parts of it and they think maybe it was not such a bad life. It was not as competitive. People related to each other differently. On the question of textbooks, they are constantly rethinking how one approaches this. Its a challenge in the eastern germany for them to understand the full brunt of their own history. Host i want to talk about the birth of the berlin wall. 13 is considered the day the wall began to go up. What happened then in history . Guest if we go back to that period, it was a very repressive system. What the east germans decided to do was collectivized agriculture. Forcing people, farmers who had individual plots to live on collective farms. They did not want to do that. 1961, you can13, still go to east berlin and you could get on the train and you could go to the station which divided east and west berlin. You could then say, ok, i will now change trains and take the train to the west. There was an open border in berlin. People could still leave. In the days leading up to the construction of the wall, up to 2000 east germans were leaving east germany every day to go to the west because they wanted to get out. Whohat point the joke was was going to turn off the lights in east germany if we dont do something . The eastman leader german leader in the soviet leadership decided this has to change. Krusheph was in power v was in power. The timing was to prevent more east germans from leaving and to make sure the country still existed. Host we talked about different iterations of the wall. Wanted to become the wall that we see today that we think of today, the 12 foot high concrete wall . Guest in the beginning it was very crude and there was a lot of barbed wire. It took a couple of years and then it looked like the wall we see when it came down in 1989. Host pictures of the construction of the wall we can show our viewers as we listen to david from florida. Caller good morning. As always, thank you for cspan. Inemember the wall going up , and ofer kennedy west wasveryone in the very sad to see that. Paid and in 1991 1990, 1989, the wall came down. We persisted. President kennedy went in front of the wall and made his famous speech. Reaganu showed president going in front of the wall and calling for it being torn down. As an american i am very proud not,at, and believe it or ,s a jew i am proud of that that we persisted. Thank god for the government staying the course and fighting the cold war and bringing it down. Talksbefore angela stent about it, this is from president kennedy in 1963. [video] president kennedy there are some who say that communism is the wave of the future. Let them come to berlin. [cheers] kennedy there are some who would say in europe and elsewhere we can work with the communists. Let them come to berlin. [cheers] kennedy and there are that its who say true that communism is an evil system, that it permits us to make economic progress. Let them come to berlin. [cheers] all threekennedy men, wherever they may live, are citizens of berlin. Man, irefore, as a free in the words ich ben ein berliner. Host the significance of that moment . Guest it was very important. There are some debates. How much forewarning did the data sav the United States have at the wall was going up . Maybe the u. S. Could have prevented it. Obviously we couldnt. We would not have done something that probablynow, would have led to a conflict or a war with the soviet union. It was important for president kennedy to go to west berlin, stand there with the mayor and to show american support for the people in berlin, the people in west berlin. In the late 1940s, the soviet union tried to stamp out west berlin and the u. S. Had the berlin airlift and we saved people. Its important to show the solidarity and u. S. Support and u. S. Support for west germans and german unification was consistent throughout the decades. We were important in helping facilitate their unification. Host you mentioned the berlin airlift. Dig into that for a little bit. Guest just to explain to our viewers, the soviets tried to starve out west berlin. They wanted to take over west berlin. To them germany had been divided into two states. Were talking about 19471948. You had the presence of american, british and french troops in west berlin. The soviets tried to starve out west berlin. They tried to cut the lines of communication. What the United States did was to begin and airlift. We flew our planes and literally dropped food and other supplies. You can see photos of german children rushing and getting chewing gum and cigarettes, but also food. Supplies for the west berliners. We broke the soviet blockade. That was a turning point because it meant we were a presence in west berlin until unification. Host professor angela stent. We are taking your phone calls this morning. Wes, spartanburg, south carolina. Caller great to be on cspan. This program is awesome. I wanted to make a comment about maybe the flavor of it. There are a lot of german manufacturing here, especially textiles. Bmw is here, too. There were three large sections of the wall i think it was metzger that put it right on the interstate between greenville and spartanburg, south carolina. I remember in that time. I love this program. Is there a book you can recommend that people read about this time that captures the flavor . Book youd be a good think would give some of the flavor of the things you know about this conflict at this time . All, i have of written a book called russia and germany reborn reunification and the soviet collapse in the new europe. It details how the wall came up and down it the soviets and u. S. And all the other countries did. I think you will have another guest on soon. She just wrote a new book about the fall of the wall. Host thank you for that preview. Guest i have not read it yet but im sure its a very good book. Host talk to us about your latest book. Guest the fall of the Welcome Center this. Ns russia with limited resources, the gdp the size of italy, declining population, how was it able to reassert itself on the world stage . Even where the relations with the west were bad, relations with china, india are much better. We have seen russia back in the middle east now. I have a section on the relationship between germany. Its interesting to remember mr. Utin got his start as a midlevel kgb officer in east germany. Angela merkel grew up in east germany. For putin, the fall of the wall was really key. I go into this in my book. He was interested at the time of the wall fell. Germans fell, the east where thee building soviet kgb was cohead courted with the east German Secret Police and demanded to see files. Putin, and out of biographical essay published when he became president in 2000 describes how they stayed up all night feeding all the files into the furnace. The furnace exploded. It was quite a frightening experience for all of them. They did not know what was going to happen. Putin called moscow and said, what should i do about this . Nobody picked up the phone. If you want to understand Vladimir Putin and his attitude life, go backds to dresden. We have a picture of people of east berlin going to i offices and wanting to see their files that was kept there. Talk about the trials afterwards. End a lot of people did see their files. Out there were a lot of people first of all, west painful what was was when people started to find out their loved ones, members of their family had been informing on the. There was a famous east german writer. It turned out her husband was informing the secret police. This was a pernicious thing about east germany. The extent to which so many people in the population became informersorkers for the ease German Secret Police. Telling tales on their coworkers and even on their own families. A great outpouring and questioning of what people lives had been. It turns out your husband had been informing on you. You have to wonder what it all meant. Host fume is left with professor angela stent a few minutes left with professor angela stent. Richard in virginia, good morning. Caller how are you doing today . Host doing well. Caller the berlin wall was a great thing. It made people smile. It made people feel good. It was a positive thing. I wish we had more of that going on right now. There is some positive in the world. Its just all the offices this but on bad stuff emphasis is put on bathtub. Stuff. Asis is on bad want to feelwhy we bad. Get theant to do is news on all the bad stuff. There is so much to smile about. Ive got one more comment. It is the 30year anniversary. We should think about that all day today. The white house spokesman, she is definitely the most beautiful woman ive ever seen in my life. On how wela stent should feel about today in the anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Guest i think we should definitely feel positive. It ended a horrible system. The last nail in the coffin of the communist system in Eastern Europe. We should have positive feelings maybe we understanding had exaggerated ideas about how easy it would be to integrate the east end west germans east and west germans. If it is that hard, how much more difficult it has been for the rest of Eastern Europe and in russia for the postsoviet states to make the transition. It will take a very long time. We should be positive but realistic about how long it will take to get over the defamation of this system. Host professor Angela Angela stent. You can follow her on twitter. Putins world. Up next, more of your phone calls. Stay on the line. We will get to your call and talk about your thoughts and memories from 30 years ago today. If you are in the eastern or central time zones, 202 7488001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. The special line for germanamericans, 202 7488002. As you continue to call in we will show you president George H W Bushs public reaction to the news they wall had opened when he talk to reporters in the oval office on the afternoon of november 9, 1989. [video] did you imagine anything like this happening . President bush i imagined it but i cannot say i foresaw this development at this state. I did not foresee it, but imagining it, yes. I talked about europe whole and free. We talked about this freedom, staying with and living by which gives people the rights to come and go. [indiscernible] you dont seem related. President bush i emulated. Im just not an emotional kind of guy. Im very pleased. Im very pleased with a lot of developments. , which isited states not related to this developer today, is being handled in a proper fashion. We will have some that will suggest more flamboyant courses of action for this country. Think, handling this properly with allies. Trying to help as Development Takes place. Enhance reform political and economic. The fact im not bubbling over, i feel very good about it. [indiscernible] there are about 200,000. What if there are a million . President bush i like to think with the political change, it would catch up very fast with this liberalization, if you will. Before i went to poland i dont know if jim baker was sitting next to me. I was asked by the polish journalists if i were a young pole, what would my advice be . I said i think you ought to stay there and participate in this dramatic change in your country. Feel the surge of freedom. Feel the move towards democracy and be a part of it. These are germans. Germans love their country. At some point i think a lot of andans who felt pinned in unable to move and move, but wouldnt it be better to participate in the reforms taking place in their own country . Host clear back in the berlin wall gallery at the museum just down pennsylvania avenue from the capital building. Its our home this morning on the washington journal on cspan on American History tv on cspan3. We are taking your phone calls and getting your thoughts and memories from 30 years ago today, the fall of the berlin wall on november 9, 1989. Phone lines to join us this morning, 202 7488000 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. 202 7488001 if you are in the mountain or pacific time zones. For 7488002 germanamericans. That special line this morning. We have our phone line that we keep for Text Messages. 202 7488003. A few Text Messages come in so far this morning. I want to review a couple of them. Rights,ew york city when the wall came down we took the train from amsterdam to berlin. Patrolled by east german soldiers with rifles. At the brandenburg gate, east germans came across to stand in the west which was all they could do with no money. I cried with relief and joy in disbelief. I thought it would never come down. Im a minister woman. The desire for i am a midwestern woman. The desire for freedom is a powerful force. I was 10 years old. My teacher was a berliner. I recall her tears of joy. She gave me a piece of the wall with a guiltl which i still display on my desk today. We are taking your phone calls on the phone lines we set aside mountain,n, central, pacific, and germanamericans. Oceanside, california. Caller i was born right after the war and i was always scared of the communists. ,verything that was on tv everything was about how bad the calmness was. There were so many tv shows and movies about the war. You cannot escape it. It was scary. I guess i never thought it would come down. You thingss to show can change. Host thanks for that call this morning. Dylan out of waynesboro, pennsylvania. Good morning. Caller hello. Hi. In 1977, my uncle made a trip to east germany to visit relatives. I just wanted to read a few excerpts from a letter he wrote to my dad. He said, and this is pretty brief, it is most difficult to describe in written words the conditions one notices immediately between east and west germany. Lives in the old family house. In his day it mustve been a beautiful place. In our standards, we might call it a slum. She lives on the third floor. The rest of her home is occupied by other people. This is due to the great housing shortages. They do not have hot water, flush toilets, etc. They cannot get materials and help to keep their homes in good repair. She pointed out the Glass Factory that was started by our greatgrandfather. Now is run by the government. Sorry, im a little emotional. She was curious about our living conditions, what kind of houses we lived in. Will be allowed to live without having to share our homes with strangers, etc. He closes by saying, we are fortunate to live in the usa and what we have. Host how often do you take out that letter . Caller gee, i have not taken it out for quite a long time. I found it in some old papers. Whoared it with my cousin is my his uncle is my dad. It was a couple of years ago. I have not looked at it since but never merit it when i heard the discussions today. You sharingeciate it with us in our viewers. Andy is next out of indianapolis. Your memories from number 9, 1989 . Then. i was 17 to fight the communists, the socialists, the bad guys, the reds. Sudden itll of a collapsed. I was 17 years old. At 18 i joined the army, the u. S. Army. And, it was suddenly very different because the soviet union collapsed. Saddam ishing we know our enemy. And we were ready. I was in basic training. We were going after saddam, not these red, pinko communists. That we always knew. How strange was that. Hey, weve got a job to do. Weve got to do it and do it well. That is the way it was. My we find ourselves in, oh , thesel these jihadis al qaeda ties, these isis ties. Host what is the lesson you take from all that . , socialism andw squad and these crazy socialist types, they dont know American History. And the younger ones, they dont know American History. They dont how bad socialism is. Like they have got no idea of what American History 1995 or 1999 or something. Stupidike they are so they cant figure it out. Yet we have a whole generation of these people that just want to go, oh yeah, this socialist idea, this Bernie Sanders thing. It and we wantow to do it. You guys have no idea. Host that is antiin indiana. This is michael out of taylorsville, North Carolina. Good morning. Caller i would just like to share. I am not a german citizen. I came to this country when i was six years old. I went back when i was 18 and started working for the u. S. Army, working for the u. S. Army from 1976 up until 1991. My view is i remember sitting in heidelberg, germany at the barracks, and international barracks. We had this old projection television. We were sitting there watching this unfold. I was sitting there with german soldiers, british soldiers, american soldiers, civilians. We were like, what is going to happen . Unease. S a feeling of there was a feeling of euphoria. It is hard to describe. I goterman i felt, hey, my country back. I am 62 years old. I was there when the wall was put up. I was there when it came down. I have been to east germany. I was over there in 1982. I was married to a canadian. That was the only way i was allowed to travel there. We got the checkpoint charlie and we were met by east german Border Guards with machine guns. They took our car apart. They took all the reading with serial. There was a Stars Stripes newspaper and a herald tribune. All my cassette tapes and anything that had any kind of printed message on it. They took the backseats out of the car. They said put your car back together and move on. The whole time we were in east germany host they made you put your car back together . They did not have the courtesy to do it . Caller no, they stood there with a machine gun. Ok, put your backseat back in and get out here. It was not a warm reception to say the least. Hey frowned at that time pretty much the height of the cold war. We had german license plates on our car. They knew i was west german and she was canadian. I could have tactically because i was with her. They basically followed us the whole time we were in east berlin. It is like you see in the movies. There was a guy in a leather trenchcoat that every time you turn around was standing there. I have pictures in my living room of the changing of the guard with a goose stepped in front of their Police Building or whatever. I was taking pictures. The man for the trenchcoat came over and asked me why i was taking the pictures. I said it is for historical purposes. I think it is interesting. He just kind of walked away. Host thank you for sharing that. On the idea of espionage in berlin and the significance of that, stick around. In the next segment of the washington journal we will stalk will talk with steve vogel, author and former Washington Post correspondent who worked in berlin about that topic specifically. Thank you for sharing your memories. Randy is in fayetteville, North Carolina. Ahead. Caller thank you for taking my call, cspan. I enjoy watching your program. I was stationed in germany in 1984. I remember vividly the berlin wall. I was in the military at the time. I served in the third infantry in germany. Stationed about 45 minutes from the czechoslovakian border. Exercise, notield knowing that the wall was about to fall. I have a lot of memories of germany. The transition of time. The disco bombing in berlin. I listened to the gentleman talking about espionage that was going on. That was one of the main reasons. There was a lot of tension going on over there. Remember in 1985. A lot of people forget about that. Moammar qaddafi. Qaddafi was going on over there at that time. The bombing. I got married in germany. Host that is randy in fayetteville, North Carolina. We are taking your calls throughout the morning on the washington journal and on cspan3 on American History tv. A few minutes ago we showed you president George H W Bushs first public reaction to the news about the fall of the berlin wall on november 9, 1989. In that clip you saw you saw secretary of state james baker in the oval office with him. Withlked with we talked secretary baker about his memories from that day, about being in the oval office that day and what it was like to watch the fall of the berlin wall from the white house. This is secretary baker from houston, texas, talking about where he was when he heard about the news on november 9, 1989. [video] i was hosting a lunch for the president of the philippines in the dining room at the top of the state department. Hers hosting a lunch for when an aide passed me a note saying the instrument government has Just Announced east has justvernment announced they will permit traffic from east germany to west germany. I read the note to the assembled group of the table. Proposed a toast and then excused myself to go to the white house to meet with the president. Host do you were member what you said in the toast . I dont remember the words of the toast except it probably spoke to the importance of the to the concept of freedom president all american , democratic and republican had fought since harry truman. Harry truman three George H W Bush. I probably said some things about that. O beingber president akin quite moved by the news. Host what were your conversations like with president bush in the first few hours after the news . I went straight to the white house and the president and ocoughe cough brent sc and several others were discussing what our reaction should be. The president was quite clear. He said this is a big thing. Toreally is tantamount winning the cold war. The one thing we need to avoid is triumphalism. We have a lot of business to do with mikhail gorbachev, president of the soviet union, and the foreign minister. We hadere reformers whom been working with and wanted to continue to support. We had a lot of work to do. The president said i dont think we should stick it in therir eye. He held a press conference in the oval office. I remember sitting at the desk next to him. The press was all over him about why are you being more emotional about this. All, this is something america and her western allies have fought for for 40 years. The president said im not an emotional kind of guy. Im happy about this but i dont think we need to dance on the ruins of the berlin wall. Host was he emotional when the reporters left the room . What was it like in the hours and evening afterwards . Happy, he was extremely as we all work. He was counseling us to be careful and not to come across not to be braggadocio or triumphalist in our comments. We still had a lot of work to do with the soviet leaders. They were still supporting governments that we were opposing. People tend to forget that. Yes, it was a wonderful moment. For fort we had fought had certainly been moved forward if not achieved. The president was quite careful and quite right in saying we have a lot of work to do with these guys. Lets not stick it in their eye. Host when were you sure the wall would come down . Was there a point before . Well, we were not that sure the wall would come down. I will tell you quite frankly the collapse of the wall on that day came as somewhat of a surprise, even though we knew there had been protests. Human rights protests, protests for freedom all across the captive nations of Eastern Europe. Starting in poland of course and spreading from there. We knew the trend was very much in the right direction as far as we were concerned. I dont think anybody could have told you. Im not even sure the soviets could have told you that was going to happen on that day. Low level east german officials made an announcement that had something to do with visas. It was interpreted to mean we will open the gates and let people freely pass between east and west germany. Im not sure that was exactly message this low level wski im not sure thats what he meant to convey. Recall when i was next there. I was the only secretary of state ever to have gone to east germany. Bridge, thes the bridge of spies in the pot stamp dam when no american official had done that because the cold war was at its height. Host i want to end with one of the questions that president bush got in the press conference that you described on that day on november 9. Is this the end of the iron curtain . What were you thinking when the question was asked . What were your thoughts that day . My thoughts that day, and i think the president s was we had a lot of work to do. It did look like it was the beginning, if not the end, certainly the beginning of the end of the iron curtain. But before that we had been given president bush and i each had been given pieces of the iron curtain by the primitive hungary. Hungary was the first country to itdismantling parts was not the wall but it was parts of the curtain, the iron curtain. I still have the when i was given. It is a piece of the barbed wire that represented the iron curtain. That happened a little bit before but no one anticipated the events that occurred on november 8 and nine. Host do you have any sections of the wall . I have a section of the wall. Im speaking to you for the James Baker Institute at rice university. We have a big section of the wall right outside our building here on the campus of rice university. We had an event here not long ago with the forward ministers who were serving at that time for great britain, france and the United States and germany. One of the most moving things for me was when the day after this all happened i got a call from the west German Foreign minister. I answered the phone and said hello. Before he could come on the line his secretary said, mr. Secretary, i have the minister for you. Before i put them on the line, may i just say to you god bless america. I found it to be in a moving time and moving statement and moving event. Host secretary james baker from the baker institute, thank you for your time in your memory. Back in the berlin wall gallery in washington, d. C. Time for a few more of your calls, your memories from the daily berlin wall fell. Elizabeth, thanks for waiting in maryland. Caller good morning. I want briefly to say i experienced east germany from west germany as we fled from east germany into west germany. Almostppened was until 1989, the news for the east germans was tightened more and more. Wethe 1950s and 1960s could send clothing and packages to east germany for the people because they did not have very much. Eventually we had to send new clothing. I sent american dollars when i came to this country in carbon paper to east germany so the woman could buy some groceries. I experience the hungarian revolution. That berlin or east germany would become free. I have a person in east germany that i called and he was very drunk because he never thought the wall would come down. I never thought it did. I cried and cried and cried. I had visited east germany in 1959 with [speaking german]. E traveled to various cities the people that housed us, that gave us meals, they were so thrilled, and i dont know how they afforded food in 1959. To feed us. And the best menus restaurants you could go to. For me, germany was united. , but born in east russia. O me, germany united is a gift thats all it is. Host elizabeth, thanks for your call and memories from 30 years ago and belonged and beyond. Newusem. M the you may see the public behind the scenes this morning with us as we continue the discussions. D. C. Is paul in washington, paul, good morning. Caller good morning and thank you for cspan. , and in washington, d. C. Was 46 when the wall came down. Byecall, vividly, a cartoon the cartoonist herblock that road for the Washington Post. Herblock was quite a good artist. Not quite at the level of daumier, but not bad. He did a picture of a young german couple, the man was representing the west, the woman was representing the east, and they were looking at each other , and it wasze absolutely no doubt no words were necessary except for the caption with an indication of reunification happening. Do you recall it and can you show it . Host i dont recall it, paul, but you mentioned the Washington Post. We have a long time Washington Post correspondent and reporter up next in just a moment. A stick around for that discussion. Later, we will be joined by another author to discuss the history of germany postberlin wall, but first, before we get to those interviews, more from nbc news special report that aired 30 minutes ago today. The focus in this part of the riposte the report on the escape tunnels used to get into west berlin. Announcer in 1962, a documentary showed the tunnel under the wall to bring 59 feet people to freedom. Every six feet, they planted and across them, a 4 x 4 which held up the wooden ceiling. The digger, the man with the beard, was a refugee himself. He had fled east germany after 4. 5 years in a communist prison. Now, he pulled the clay with a spade, twisting in a space three feet by three feet. Barely roomier than a coffin. On thursday, september 13, they made their last inspection. In august, the builders of another tunnel had broken through into a cellar and looked into the eyes and gun barrels of communist ce. Some were killed and some were captured. The first of the refugees would come. Death was not the greatest danger. Prison camps can be worse. The diggers watched his daughter come through. Announcer then, his wife. He had escaped from east germany the year before. His wife had spent 10 months in a communist prison for trying to put follow him trying to follow him and their second son was born in jail. Tonight, for the first time, he held his baby. Back in the berlin wall gallery in washington, d. C. , author steve vogel joins us now for a conversation about a different kind of tunnel, this were not used for escape but for espionage. Steve, good morning to you. Explain what operation goal was. In the yearsas before the wall was constructed, so at that time, berlin was an open city. You had people, divided city but open. , comingere in the east across the border tens of thousands per week and vice versa. Toy visited friends, went jobs in the east and west, went shopping, but a lot of them were also involved in espionage. The u. S. And allies at that point had none of the later overhead technology that we come to expect, like the u2 or satellites. A forest based in east germany that was that had more or less been there since the world war ii, and we had, on the west, little idea what we were up to. We had lost a source of intercepted Radio Communications when the soviets had discovered we were intercepting the radio calls. We were more or less fighting the cold war blind. The British Secret Intelligence Service and cia came up with this idea of digging a tunnel from west berlin into east berlin, not to help anybody get out, but to tap into soviet communication lines. Berlin was the center of soviet communication, and you had these lines that connected the Red Army Headquarters back into moscow and other points of Eastern Europe. Arey important communications. They were across the border they were very important communications. They were across the border. Host steve vogel speaking on this. The true story of berlins most audacious espionage operation. When it comes to operation goal, what is special . Guest thats the big question. There are a lot of moving points. The most important moving part is a british spy named george blake who, at the time the tunnel was conceived, was one of the very few people in western intelligence either in the cia or the british sis who knew about the tunnel. Agent also acting as an for the kgb. He had a remarkable life and was held prisoner in north korea for three years during the war there. It had turned at some point to he hadside, and turned at some point to the other side. He knew this tunnel was being planned and he got it to the kgb. But, the kgb was afraid to do anything because blake was one of literally a handful of western intelligent people that know about the tunnel. Doing anything to stop the blake. Would expose this becomes a dilemma for the kgb. Host and that story in steve vogels book. Can you tell us about the city of berlin and its role in espionage battle throughout the cold war, and how that world changed after the wall went up. Operation gold took place before 1960 one, before the wall went up. What changed when the wall went up 1961, before the wall went up. What changed when the wall went up . Guest berlin was the capital of espionage in the world. You have people across, east and west, they could carry information, meet with in a safe house with their cia handlers, and vice versa. At one point, along with vienna, to a lesser extent, where you had all four of the powers, the bridgets british, soviets, and americans together. They were behind the iron curtain, and this was the one place where we had a window view into the soviet union and satellites. The tunnel was one of the ways they came up to get that information came up with to get that information. You had, by some estimates, as many as 10,000 people involved in espionage operations and berlin. He couldnt walk down the street properly without running into someone. That all depended on the free access, taking access. One of the problems the east germans had was that they were losing so many people. Only refugees were coming into the west, in other words, taking the transport across a never coming back. That was a big problem. Espionage was another issue the kgb tried to clack down on that crackdown on. When the wall was built, all of , wedden, almost overnight lose this free access that we were unable to get most of the information that we were able to get prior to the wall being built. It is no longer the espionage center that it was during the 50s, which was its heyday. Host espionage, berlin, and the berlin wall is our focus for this segment of washington journal here at the berlin wall gallery at the museum at the time of the day where the newseum comes alive. You can see people around the exhibit as we continue our discussion as you call in. This is rob from phoenix, arizona. Rob, you are on with steve vogel. Caller good morning, john and steve. I have a couple anecdotal stories i would like to tell about when i was in berlin. I was in west berlin after the wall, and had a girlfriend there who told me stories about what it was like to grow up there, and she said all of the young girls would go to meet the guards at the different sectors, the tommies and armies, french, and they would get their first kiss from a soldier guard in those sectors, but funny things happen to her. She said she cried when the wall went down because she said it is our wonderful wall, because it gave them a special life in west berlin that people only experience because of the wall, and not all of the interest in berlin. Those are a couple little stories i remember. I have a lot more, but i will leave it at that. Host rob, thanks. Steve vogel spent a lot of time and was born in berlin. Caller right. The wall almost created a time capsule in the east. If you are able to go across through checkpoint charlie into the east those years, its like moving back in time. Partly because so much of the world war ii debris was still still theret was had been cleaned up, but it was a simpler existence over there. To some extent, it has been romanticized since the years in the year since the wall came down, and theres a great mental divide between easterners and westerners in terms of how they look at a unified germany, but it was a remarkable place, being born there. The wall was put up one year after i was born. My dad used to joke that they built it to keep me out. [laughter] host and you were there not long after the wall came down. Arrivedyeah, no, i had in germany in september of 1989 to work with a freelance journalist for the Washington Post in army times and other publications. Thes in munich on the night wall came down. I was sitting in my apartment watching tv in germany to try to in german to try to improve my german. The talking horse, mr. Ed, was on. They broke into a script saying the wall is falling. I got on the first plane i could to get to berlin and went straight to checkpoint charlie, which was a madhouse. Streams of people coming over. The mps were more or less joining in the party. Usually it was strict and sober minded as a place, but at that point, people were running around with champagne and schnapps and the guards much threw up their hands. It was a joy to see. Do as ado you journalist, where do you turn to in that moment . Caller you try to find ordinary people and talk to the germans coming over. I try to talk to the mps themselves. These were kids from all across america, and none of them had seen this coming. They were caught up in the moment, and feeling the joy. One of them said we are part of history now, we are right here doing this. I also looked for some of the brash brass like general haddock. You sort of get the view from the you try to get the view from the top and he is trying to portray that everything remained calm, nothing is changing here, kind of this status quo, but there was all this evidence all around that it really wasnt the status quo. Host back to the phone lines on the phone line for germanamericans. This is charlotte, North Carolina. Good morning. Caller good morning. Im german through my fathers side of the family who started coming over here in 1860s and 1870s, but we are all together. I was stationed in germany in the military in the 70s, and we were facing 30,000 soviet warsaw pacttanks warsaw tanks. Thatsy was to stop massive armor in the event of war. We also had a terrorist problem. Two gangs were active during that time. It was common to see German Police running around with submachine guns. But theyclean country, had problems back then. Host bruce, thank for sharing your memories. Guest absolutely. Terrorists were a big fear at that point for sure. The american soldiers there were sometimes targets of that. There was the famous bombing at the berlin disco that was later to it, and i remember going out on patrols with some of the , near theoldiers folded gap. This was two weeks before the wall came down. The tension that existed, the feeling that they were at the tip of the spear, that any moment you could have an attack launched, was very real for those guys. I talked to these guys later, after the walking down, and you had the second army cavalry regiment, and it took a long time for them to accept that the world was changing. Host how concerned where they that russia was going to respond with some sort of military response after the wall came down . Guest that was a concern, but signals that are coming into washington from moscow and elsewhere was that gorbachev would not do Something Like that. But, that didnt mean the guys down on the front line didnt have to worry about it, because things can turn out differently than what they are being told from washington or moscow or wherever. They were very much on guard for that initial time in the you do,n on whether within a year or two, have an attempted coup in the soviet union, so things could have changed quickly and people were aware of that. Host this is penny in new york. Good morning. Penny, are you with us this morning . Caller im sorry, its bernie. Host bernie, go ahead. Caller i called in because i was born in germany, during the war, and i afterwards ended up living in east germany, the workers paradise. At some point, my parents had family in the states, my fathers mother, and immigrated here in the 20s and had established himself in upstate new york. They decided to seriously they couldnt flee east germany, and let me just mention how we managed to get out. Earlier k to the this was in 1956, we left five years before the wall was established. What happened at the time is permit mother received a for her and myself to go west to germany to visit a sister that lived there. The communists gave us that currently, but my father had to stay behind. He was not allowed to come with us. Ifuspect thats because all three of us left, they knew we would not be coming back. My mother and i went on vacation, and before the four weeks expired, we should have took a case father and made it look like he was on a business trip, had a permit from his workplace to go to berlin, one of his supervisors gave him that slip at some risk. He arrived in berlin in the russian sector, and i dont know if he used the subway or the taxi, whatever, but moved over into the american sector, which and hed an airfield, flew out to west berlin, and that is how we were reunited. We then applied to come to the states and it all worked out well. So, i have been living here for 60 years. Host thanks for sharing your families story. What do you take from that . Guest there are so many stories like that, so many remarkable stories. Some are seldom successful. Being wall was constructed, some people took that chaotic time to make an escape. Quickly after that, the east germans began sealing off all of the different escape routes and tricks people were using to get across. You had families that were , in many cases, wouldnt reach it for many years. There were moments of real joy of people escaping and moments of tragedy. I remember the daughter of the farmer under whose land the espionage tunnel was built. By that point, it had been dug up. She and her friends used to wish they still have the tunnel down there that they could use to escape into west berlin. Host steve vogel, our guest, brick trail in berlin betrayal in berlin. Weve been talking about operation gold along with your memories, your thoughts on the legacy of the berlin wall, 30 years after the fall of the wall. This is penny in new york. Caller can you hear me . Host yes, maam. 47. Er im my grandfather was a world war ii hero. Seven combat jumps. I was, on november 9, i was living in western pennsylvania. I was going to a city and rounds ville, pennsylvania, and i applied to a program called open door, so i ended up being an abbasid to representing western pennsylvania for the United States of america in germany. Abbasid or representing western pennsylvania for the United States of america in germany. We left d. C. When you are interviewing george bush, i remember our first two months in cologne. We were all told to go to the embassy and george bush got on the line and said, you know it was very heartfelt when he said this to us. He said i cant recommend that or that for the year, you come home. He also said if you stay, i ashly recommend that you act a german, because that was our job. I wanted to promote freedom, and teach the countries on how to be free. Even my grandfather never wanted me to go. The day before i got on the plane, he said please dont go and i said i will promote freedom. Heart, so healing to my this program. I appreciate all of it because i have so many memories. Im writing a book, and this is so encouraging to me, because for 10 months, i was in hamburg, germany and i got to go to berlin often. I got to be to teach the berlin bloc countries in , with a Company Called cardos. I did hair when i was over there too so i got to do a lot of different things. With soment the day east germans on the east berlin side, it was so joyous. The people were so loving and caring. The whole time i was over there, for the whole year, everyone was so joyous, but unfortunately, we did have that on our backs where people wanted to kill us because we were american. Your thanks for sharing stories and memories this morning. Steve vogel, your thoughts on that and how long you ended up staying in germany and berlin after the fall of the wall. Guest i completely understand that emotion and that feeling. I ended up i was only going to stay in germany for two months to try my hand at freelancing, and all of a sudden, you have this revolution on your hand. The berlin wall begins triggering all of these other huge ramifications, leading quickly to unification. I ended up staying for five years. The pace of the change here, both for germany, all of europe, and for the United States, which had this large force in germany, and there is all of a sudden the questions about what happens to the american president presence in europe. Then, you have these things like the gulf war breaking out, and these forces in germany are sent out to cover that. This is a transformation in americas role centered in europe, and you had all of these issues in germany that pop up, the rise of rightwing radicalism as refugees continued to stream into germany, kind of the same issues we see today. That was all happening quickly. Host this is mary out of batesville, arkansas. Good morning. Caller hi. In 1974, i was with the uso and we were in germany for about a month because there were so many [indiscernible]over there. We got to ride the duty train through east germany to berlin and we were told not to look out the window because they will shoot you. Youre not supposed to look at the guards when we stopped at the train, all of the different stations, but of course we did. It was quite i have a lot of pictures and i often think about that. I get them out and look at it, because it was so, so awful. It was awful. I enjoyed my time there. Chic. Was so tray they had discos, the fashion sector, and it was across the place. His bleak, cold and across the wall, it was this bleak, cold place. Host our next caller. Caller thank you for taking my call. My family was in the service and down,and when it all came yeah, it was surreal in a sense, but it was also kind of expected. T the lower level it was started over in poland really, and the way it spread and, believe it or not, the influence of american soldiers all over that area, they loved our style. Im talking western style. Look at what happened. The whole area got better, but im looking at it this way, that theres a lot to be appreciated about what the americans have done, and what nato did, and the way nato is getting stepped on now is kind of interesting. Anyways, i appreciate that. Vita zhang host steve vogel, your thoughts. Guest both of the calls were interesting. Onrding nato, we look back 30 years ago and there was a Great Division in germany about the presence of nato. Some people were happy to have the western forces over there, but there was a lot of antagonism over the years, damage being done by u. S. Troops training. You get the feeling that it was an occupation, but it is funny, berlin was one of the places where the american troops were always welcomed. It was very little of the antiamerican feeling that you might experience elsewhere in germany. In berlin, there was appreciation that they were this island in the middle of east germany, and without having western presence there things could have turned out very differently. The previous caller was discussing that it would a it was a tense journey to travel from the west either from western germany into berlin. If you drive the audubon along the restricted routes, it was like traveling back in time again, and you did feel crossing the border points with these huge guard towers and machine guns and all of that that it was a different time. Host you talk about tense moments. I want you to bring it back to operation gold and the days after the tunnel was discovered on the eastern side of east berlin. We have a picture of a press conference i believe that was held by the east germans after they found the tunnel. Explain what the reaction was. Guest it was a surprise for andyone because the cia British Intelligence had assumed that once the tunnel was discovered, the soviets and east germans would keep it quiet because they would be embarrassed about the fact that western intelligence had tapped into their communication lines, but the kgb and soviets had a completely different idea. They wanted to embarrass the americans and use it as a propaganda coup to prove that the americans are only using berlin as a nested nest of spies, and that they are here because of their espionage center. And look at this dirty tunnel this is an spy, outrage, a violation of german territory and sort both so forth. They had this press conference and invited every reporter in west germany. This was before cell phones, but they managed to get hundreds of reporters on the scene within half an hour. They took them to the site in the southern corner of the german americans soviet sector germanamerican soviet sector. It was a sensation and people could not believe what they were seeing. There was a very sophisticated command center down there, like a battleship. They had an incredible amount of taped conversations down there. Host its a story you can read about in steve vogels book, but trail in berlin, the true story of cold wars most audacious espionage operation. Appreciate you telling part of that store this morning. Guest my pleasure. Host next on the washington journal, we are joined with author hope harrison why author hope harrison to discuss the berlin wall falling. At first, more from the nbc news special report on november 9, 1989. This was the beginning of the 11 30 p. M. Broadcast that evening. Berlin, you are looking at a live picture of the berlin wall shortly before the dawn of a new day, a day that will see this border open to freedom for all. What youre seeing now is taking place at 5 30 in the morning, berlin time. These crowds, mostly young people, spent their whole night celebrating the opening of the wall, welcoming the tens of thousands of east germans coming across from the east to the west. We are truly privileged tonight. We are eyewitnesses to history. Who on either side of the berlin wall or in this country would have believed this morning that this day would end the way it of and with a very simple the division of europe, the division of the free world, becoming irrelevant. That is the result of the stunning to surprise decision by east germany leaders. East germanys germans may now cross into west germany directly, even through the berlin wall itself. [shouting] tonight, germans on both sides of the wall couldnt wait to test the new freedom. These were sites on thinkable only a few hours ago. The young westermans top the concrete barrier moving to help the east germans up the wall. Graffiti were once where there was only despair. For 28 years, the wall has been an integral part of berlin life, something that was just there. Tonight, it symbolizes something else, the failure of an east German Government to resist the wave of change over soviet bloc nations and the sound new freedom, the chipping away of the wall itself. Wall back in the berlin gallery at the museum in washington, d. C. We welcome hope harrison, the author of the book after the berlin wall, memories in the making of the new germany, 1989 to present. Hope harrison, on the first page, you note the history and meaning of the berlin wall remains controversial today in germany. Why is that . Guest the big lessons of the wall, what it really was, some of the former leaders were still around and were vocal, one emphasized it was a piece border, doing what they needed to do, what any sovereign state could do. People who were family members of people who were killed at the wall have a very different view on the legitimacy of the wall and see it as a terrible, violent thing. What are your thoughts on how germany is marking the anniversary today . Is this a day of celebration in germany, a day of remembrance, what is your view, looking at what happened so far this weekend whats happening today. Guest theyve been busy all week with the climax today and i think they do multiple things. They always come on the anniversary of the fall of the wall, commemorate the people who lost their lives for whom the wall fell too late. They celebrate the glorious moment of the peaceful fall to the wall, and many germans feel proud of this. And thee holocaust heavy weight of history on germanys shoulders, to feel there is something in their contemporary history they can be proud of, this peaceful fall of the wall and these who took to the street, calling for change, including taking down the wall, but they also realized 30 years after the fall of the wall, some people in the east are frustrated that although there have been major strides made between east and west, there is fewer differences, especially economics, and that gap has not been completely closed yet. Host are there people today in germany that want to forget the berlin wall . Guest i think there are always people that want to forget some difficult part of the past. Certainly some of the people who suffered and maybe have posttraumatic stress disorder because of it, it is easier to forget, but many germans feel it is so important to remember and teach young generations what it was like 20 dears when that wall stood. And certainly, in this day and age, when so many walls are going up around the world, and countries neighboring germany, many germans feel it is important to remember that time when the wall came down. Host for our last 25 minutes on the washington journal today, we are talking with hope harrison, the author of after the berlin wall memory and the making of the new germany, 1989 to the present. You can see the berlin wall gallery here at the newseum in washington, d. C. Starting to fill in with the tour groups and others. We are taking a look at the largest impact piece of the wall outside of germany, here at the newseum. We are taking the calls on the phone calls. If you are in eastern or central time zones, guest for mountain or if your in eastern or central time zones, 202 7488000. 202 7488001 four mountain pacific. 202 7488002 for germanamericans. Caller i was stationed in berlin from 1983 to 1989, and the things to remember is that the americans, in the 1950s, we had the berlin airlift to support the people in berlin. In the 1980s, we had president reagan telling us to tear down the wall, and in the 1980s hest died, died people were circumventing the wall going from east germany into checkless a blocky a and west germany checkless lamacchia checkless love bockius it was a time for the wall to come down and have freedom for these berliners. And all of the warsaw pact countries. I also forgot to remember to and forgot to mention on december 21, when they were invading panama, we were all having the berlin wall torn down both between the right stock and brandenburg gate. It was the best time in the world. Host hope harrison here to talk about the things to remember about the berlin wall. Guest let me just say it is theerful to be here with only east german guard tower outside of germany. I hope very much they will find a place to keep these, because they are such important historic artifacts. Speaking of memory of the fall of the wall, i myself was on a plane, headed to berlin on the night of november 9 when the wall fell as i was on the commuter flight to west berlin, the pilots got on the intercom and said, ladies and gentlemen, in case you havent heard, the berlin wall fell last night, and we are flying into history. I couldnt believe my luck. I was there on the ground in berlin for 10 amazing days. I got my own pieces of the wall, i watched the incredibly moving scenes of west germans welcoming these east germans, coming into west berlin host our viewers are seeing the picture standing in front of the wall. Explain where you were. Guest that picture is right in front of the brandenburg gate. This was two days after the wall had opened. They had put, as you can see, the east german border soldiers back on top of the wall, trying to keep a bit of order, hoping nobody, with all the partying they didnt want anybody to fall off and have any injury, so it was an amazing time to be there. Something i will never forget, thats for sure. Host whats the history of how germany has remembered the berlin wall, about the larger story of reunification in germany. Guest at the beginning, people didnt want to remember it. They wanted to move on and tear it down. Then, they realized they needed to commemorate the victims, and they put money into researching exactly who was killed trying to escape. I write about one of those who, ona 20yearold december 1, 1980 four, was killed while trying to cross. It was to walls, armed guards in between, and many other border obstacles in between the external and internal wall. Ago, the wayears germans focused on the memory of the wall changed. For the first time, they focused on the positive history of the fall of the wall and courageous east germans took to the streets , calling for change and brought that down. Anniversary,0th while there are many people celebrating, there are also some but a loud minority, minority expressing their frustration that they have not still achieved western levels economically or in terms of the respect sometimes that they feel they are shown as being from the east. Host with just about 20 minutes left on the washington journal today, on cspan and on cspan3 on American History tv, taking your phone calls. This is jean out of detroit, michigan. Good morning. Caller good morning. I just want to say that i was 46 or whatever at the time of the fall of the wall, and i was happy for the people, but i also felt apprehension at the reunification because of germany having been involved in world im sorry, world war i and world war ii. I think that it made me realize even more, since then, the importance of nato in preventing a third world war. I hope our current president realizes the history. Thank you. Host thank for the call. Hope harrison. Guest yes. When the wall fell, many germans were happy, but the brits, french, soviets, polish, and many others were worried. Mentioned,t caller we particularly remember nazi germany. And, wondering what is going to happen now. Will it be the nationalism, aggression, and aggressive country, and it was only president George H W Bush in the u. S. Who wasnt afraid. Thats partly because we lost fewer than the other countries did in world war ii and were separated by the Atlantic Ocean from germany, but president bush felt confident the democratic west germany that was our allies throughout the cold war, was mature enough, Strong Enough to absorb east germany and become the same kind of democratic peaceful, multilateral nation that west germany had been. But, it was very important to bush that this new united germany stay in nato. He lobbied strongly for that, and ultimately, together with chancellor cole, persuaded gorbachev, who really had to sign on the dotted line, giving up his trophy from world war ii in east germany, and ultimately in the summer of 1990, gorbachev on october 3, 19 90, germany united and had the right to decide 1990, germany united and had the right to decide what alliance it wanted to be a part of. Nato is the answer. Host one of our callers brought up november 9 is not just significant for the history of the berlin wall falling but also significant in the history of the holocaust as well. Guest exactly. November 9, 1938 was the night terrible glass, a night when the nazis attacked jews in their homes, businesses, synagogues, and the fact that that november 9 also occurred is the reason the german Unification Day is not november 9. The emotional day for everyone, having to do with unification, is november 9, the fall of the wall, but they couldnt do it on november 9 because of what had happened in 1938. So, they picked october 3. Host out of michigan, this is jean, good morning. Caller i was just on. Host sorry about that. This is john in princeton, west virginia. Good morning. Caller i was wanting to comment. I was 12 years old when this happened, and i didnt know a whole lot of what was going on, but we had a neighbor that had came over during world war ii, and had married the man that lived next to us. When the wall fell, shortly after, her niece came over from the east, and i was so amazed at how she was in all of everything in awe of everything. We always joked we were 20 years behind the rest of the country, ourselves. Awe of thes in Television Shows and being able to go from state to state without papers or permission. I had no idea they had to do that. Humble, and ao very intelligent girl, but she was just in awe and so grateful of being over here. It gives all of us a new appreciation for being an american. It was a humbling experience for us, too. Just being 12 years old, it gave a whole new perspective on the world. It kind of opened it up for us too. Host john, things for the call. Hope harrison. Guest we who grew up in a democratic system often take it for granted. Newtimes, we can see a through the eyes of people who had not had the privilege and good fortune of growing up in such a system. The former president of germany, someone who came from the east, always speaks of the tears in his eyes when he first got to participate in free elections. The first and last east german free election in march of 1990, where there voted they voted for rapid unification. He voted with tears in his eyes. People in many democratic countries dont go out and vote, and exercise the rights and privileges that we have as democratic citizens. Caller comes out of los angeles, california. Good morning. Caller good morning. This has been a very emotional event for me, because of my family history. My father had been a jew who was protected by a Catholic Priest and made it so the through the nazi area, and he was a journalist and he took me to berlin and east germany one time, because he was made the americans made him mayor of a german city. Its an unbelievable story, but then the wall came down. It was such an emotional event for me, most lifechanging event in my life. I remember going through the tv trying to find coverage anywhere and i came across cspan. I was introduced to cspan because of the berlin wall coming down, and it was brian lamb sitting in east berlin, and front of like a restaurant. It had a table there, and a chair, and he sat outside of the restaurant and talked to people, two east berliners that were walking by to east berliners that were walking by. It was the most unbelievable view to have and sitting in east berlin talking to the east germans about their reaction. I was wondering if you could ever show that again. Host the nice thing is that it is available anytime you want to watch it at our website at cspan. Org. If you type in the search bar at the type of the day, brian lamb, and search by the date, november of 1989, you will be able to find it. Thanks for bringing it up and watching cspan for so long. This is john out of rockford, illinois. You are next. Go ahead. Caller good morning. I was stationed in the army in , and im sure a lot of people dont realize that we had small firefights when we were there. One of the guys in my company was injured. We also used to travel up and down the autobahn in convoy to keep the autobahn open. Can you hear me . Host did you want to add to your thoughts . Caller beg pardon . Host did you have anything more you wanted to add . Ler well i also told standard guard duty at a prison. Thats about all i had to offer. Host thanks for those memories. Hope harrison on the memories of the soldiers who served in berlin, the american soldiers, and the british soldiers, the french as well. You wrote about them in your book did you write about them in your book . Guest i read about them in their parts of helping take down the wall. In some cases, the German Government asked the allied powers for their help in removing segments of the wall, and some of those were also allowed to take segments back home to london, to paris, to washington, but there are so Many American soldiers that have served in germany throughout the cold war. And in berlin. That was a strong connection. Unification, when it was decided the troops would leave, and particularly the soviet troops would leave, while most germans, particularly in the east, were happy about the soviet troops leaving, there were others much more there was much more in most know emotional involvement with having the americans leave. People that felt so indebted to them for defending freedom, and this has been an important basis of the u. S. German ties for large number of american soldiers who had served there time, and exposed so Many Americans to the beauty of germany and how interesting it is. Im sure many people watching had that experience. My own father was based from 1950 to 1954 in germany as one of them. Host about 10 minutes left in the program this morning. Live from the newseum, you can see the berlin wall gallery at the newseum coming alive. More and more visitors coming on this day, the 30th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. Here to see the unaltered portions of the berlin wall, the largest displayed unaltered portions of the relay wall berlin wall. It is here at the newseum. We are taking your phone calls regionally. Mark is next out of shelbyville, indiana. Good morning. Caller good morning. I lived in berlin froms 1979 to 1985. I was a bartender not far from where you are now. I loved that city. A tragedy inen for my family, i would never have left. When i visit, its hard to leave. To me, there are a lot of things to talk about, but what i remember, besides being upset i wasnt there, was the substance of it. The people that had lived there, i never thought i would have saw the wall fall in my lifetime, and is kind of the way history turns. Im sure there were things leading up to it, but the actual event itself was sudden and a little shocking to me. Host mark, think for the call. Hope harrison. Guest the actual event was not supposed to happen. It was a mistake by a senior east german official who didnt read his notes carefully. Suddenly, he announced the wall was open, which it wasnt supposed to be. Then, the border soldiers, at the crossing points, had to decide, and it was Harold Yeager who made the decision at about 11 30 that night, facing thousands of people, saying didnt you see the news . Its supposed to be open. He finally opened it. Point, Border Crossing Angela Merkel herself, the current german chancellor, was one of the 20,000 east germans who crossed over from east to west on that very night. A historian, and i also talk to my students about the role of chance. There were many things pushing in this directions poland had thrown direction. Poland had thrown up the but this oneime, official said the wrong thing and the double chance that Harold Yeager, the official at the border decided to open it. Host i wonder what you think of the headlines in the wall street journal today. There are special segments of the fall of the berlin wall. The headline, history made by ordinary people. Talking about the german official and border guard. Guest absolutely. The official was not an ordinary person except in the sense that he made a mistake. Nothowed his humanness and being prepared, but absolutely, the role of individual people, this is what the germans talk about the most in terms of the lessons of the fall of the wall. They say it was the role of so many brave, individual german citizens who took to the streets, demanding change. Tried to use that history as an inspiration and model for all of us now to remember that we cant take democracy and freedom for granted. We, each of us, must be civic lien engaged to stand civic lee engaged to stand up for cally engagedvi for freedom and democracy. I interviewed over 100 germans for my book. Persona on gada and mistakenly opened the wall when he mistakenly opened the wall. He was loved by the west. All the western reporters always wanted to talk to him so he was in a strange position having come up through the communist system. Suddenly, he was hanging out with the west a lot more. He was put on trial, along with , shootingleaders people at the wall. He was the most contrived of any of the german officials for that. He said on trial how wrong it was and that he was ashamed for the role he played. Host time for a couple more calls on the washington journal on American History tv today. This is maria out of kentucky. Good morning. Caller yes. I was sitting here and thinking how i would describe my feeling to you, but its just impossible. Absolutely impossible. Year, [indiscernible]from october to november, i get the same feeling. I used to work at the hospital, and one of the doctors had a picture on his wall, the famous picture where the soldier stowed his gun away and jumped over to west germany. I had to go in his home every day, and it never got old. I said a little prayer every day. That november and that november, my friends sister from east germany, was here to visit. Money, would have the they would have been to germany the same day. Being from east germany, he didnt have the money, but i wanted to just say that the feeling is so overwhelming, [indiscernible]. Thats all i wanted to say. Host maria, think for the call. Hope harrison on that and the soldier she referred to. His name was hans conrad shuman. , a soldier that was 19 at the time when he jumped over the barbed wire to get from east berlin to west. This was before the concrete wall. Guest exactly. This was shortly after they sealed the border. The location was now is now the home of the berlin memorial which is seven blocks long along the former death strip. It has an outdoor and indoor exhibit telling people the history of the wall in general, and at that site in particular. On one of the buildings is the huge photograph of conrad gunmann throwing off his above the barbed wire. That was an inspiration to so many others that even someone who is supposed to be defending this said forget it. I want out. Host time for maybe one or two more calls. This is richard in massachusetts. Thanks for waiting. Caller good morning. It is aessor who is on, pleasure listening to her, and cspan. Im going to make a few comments and i would like her to interpret what im going to say and reclarify it if she would like. Host sure. We just have about a minute and a half, so go ahead. Caller it was the russians who lost 20 Million People in that war. It was the germans who came into russia and committed those atrocities. During the war. There had to have been a lot of bitterness and hatred toward the nation, especial the unification of germany. When allies came in and split the country up and you had france in the United States on one half, and the russians who did all the dirty work. According to them, we would have never won the war anyway. Now, they had to do something, so they put the wall up. This conversation im hearing is primarily the significance of that wall and what it represented, but if you look at the totality of the totality of the actions of the german nation i had a history professor, and he said as a nation you could never trust them. I agree with that. East german leaders had and theo close the wall soviets resisted for eight years. They finally gave in to the pleas of the east german leaders to seal up the border. Over 1000 east germans were fleeing to the west every day. They built the wall that lasted miraculouslybut came down peacefully 30 years ago today. It is wonderful to be here to celebrate that with you all. The making of the new germany 1989 to the present. On november 9, 1989, the berlin wall opened, marking the beginning of the end of the 40 year cold war. Next, we take you back to that historic day with a series of nbc news reports that interrupted regular programming between 1 00 p. M. And 11 30 p. M. Eastern time. The coverage concludes with a 20 minute special on the history of the berlin wall and the days events