Ms. Fraser very busy for the last two days, and we have had a wonderful crowd turn out each time. We sold out of the book. Its been really satisfying to it has been really satisfying, and to have cspan here taping this to show on television is the icing on the cake. It is such a wonderful feeling to know something so positive representing Jefferson County will be on national television. My job tonight [applause] peoplentroduce the two on the podium who will be conducting this conversation. Jane henderson is the editor at book editor at the st. Louis postdispatch. She granted waited from the university it graduated from the university of columbia with degrees in journalism and english literature. She worked as a copy editor for the st. Louis globe democrat in the mid1980s, and after three years in the newsroom of the hartford post in connecticut, she returned to st. Louis and has been an editor and writer with their features department for 30 years. She has signed and edits edited book reviews choosing from 300 or so new books each week. She has written stories about book trends and in for youd people. Wed many she asked to that end will be having the conversation with caroline fraser. Fraser is the editor of the library of america addition of Laura Ingalls wilder, the little house books, and the author of three works of nonfiction. Her latest book is prairie fires, the American Dreams of Laura Ingalls wilder. Wilder. It was one of the New York Times best books of the year and won the 2018 hewlett surprise for biography. It also the National Book one critics circle award for 2018raphical award and the award. And the final list given by the columbia journalism school. Caroline frazier has traveled the country for the past two years, giving talks on Laura Ingalls wilder, her daughter, and other related topics related to groups, large and small, as schools, public libraries, conferences, and universities. Formerly on the step of the new yorker, carolyn fraziers article also appears in the new york review of books, the atlantic, the los angeles times, book review, and the london review books, among other publications. She is also the author of gods plan child, living and dying in in the Christian Science church and rewilding the world. She graduated from Mercer Island high school and she received her phd in english and american literature. That was from harvard university. She lives with her husband in santa fe, new mexico. We would like you all to give her a warm welcome tonight. [applause] i guess we are on. Are you ready for us to go ahead . Thank you. Thank you very much for having me and asking me to talk to carolyn frazier. This is really exciting. I think most of us read little house on the prairie books when we were young, and maybe many others, and maybe watched it on tv, which i did. It was getting to be a teenager, so at that time, i was sometimes a little skeptical and thought it was a little corny, but we will get back to the later. How long have you researched and studied, and why did you start studying Laura Ingalls wilder . I discover the books as a kid, too, and read them and loved them, and thought they were fantastic. I think part of the reason i really loved them was my grandmother, and most of my grandparents had been farmers in the midwest, they were all immigrants mainly from scandinavian places, and came to minnesota from wisconsin, and were farming in the late 1890s. And in some of the same places. Same areas. Areas that Laura Ingalls had lived. Its fascinating to me to discover these books that told stories that cast some light on what they must have gone through. As an adult, i had an opportunity to review the first biography of rose wilder lane, Laura Ingalls wilders daughter, who was at one time a pretty wellknown journalist. In the 90s, a biography of her appeared, and it was quite a scandal because it claimed she was really the author. That man was from the university of missouri, right. Right . Yeah. It created quite a sensation. There were lots of headlines like all fraud on the prairie. [laughter] i reviewed that book and that is when i started looking at wilders manuscript, and really thinking about what an interesting story that was. Her life, yeah. I think you mentioned, in your book, that a lot of his assertions about the rose writing the book is in the appendix, right . Did he set out anything to debunk it or did he somehow fall into that later . It was kind of an odd presentation. Have some real hostility towards laura as part of the story, and was very critical of her. Yet, he did not bring up this thing that was such a central part of the book, the book was called the ghost in the little house. Until really the appendix. Ittalks a little bit about at the end. It was a contentious kind of argument to make, and i ultimately came away from it feeling like there was a lot more to the story, that it was more complicated. Earned your phd, im not sure how many people at harvard were studying tempelhof studying Laura Ingalls wilder. Ill tell you how many, zero. I didnt even think of it at that time. I would never have proposed it, because it was not considered it was not considered academic. But you kind of made it academic and away with your book, because you do incorporate so much history into the story, right . Yeah. I later came later i had the opportunity to add a new version of the little house books, a new addition for the libraries of america, and that entailed writing some notes on the text, explaining what certain historical events were for the reader, and as i was doing it, i begin to realize all this stuff is really interesting. Its really interesting to me, so i began to hope it would be interesting to readers as well. Orhow long did you study what papers did you dig up . Where did you find actual new information that hadnt been written about much before . Scholars were starting to do related work. There was a fascinating paper, for example, about the ingalls family in kansas that i found. There was another paper in a folklore journal about a discussion of the origins of this phrase that occurs repeatedly in little house on phrase, the the only good indian and the dead indian. That was in use. Event that is also mentioned in the book called the minnesota massacre. There was a whole history just wast that one phrase that so fascinating, you know, in terms of how that was used politically, to justify the treatment of indians. So, it seemed like a really rich history that really repaid attention. Did you find some of the papers are in the Herbert Hoover library, too . Those roses are roses only papers . Both. Laura Ingalls Wilders papers are in the Herbert Hoover library. Yes. It is unusual, but the reason that came about was because when rose began her writing career, and she really began as a yellow journalist, she began writing these kind of questionable biographies of people, and she wrote one of Herbert Hoover. She was the first person to of hooverography before he became president. And that was for adults. Yes, but it was actually fictionalized. Her death, her papers ended up at the hoover president ial library, as well as some of her mothers. Interesting. What were some of the revelations that you found . Has won the pulitzer prize, and people might must have thought it was groundbreaking, the way you pulled it together, all of this information, and how it related to history. I assume is why at one . Caroline i think it was a combination of establishing the importance of wilder and her work. To both her Literary History but also selfimage. As way that we see ourselves the descendents of people who crossed the great plains, and were involved in settlement of the country. Inhink people are interested the kinds of fantasies we have , anded about our own past how true are those stories we tell ourselves . Jane other people were telling that story though before wilder, where they . Caroline sure, but i think her story werent they . Caroline sure, but i think her story has become one of the children,ys especially white children, the ideas about manifest destiny. That has beenept interrogated quite a bit, yet, even still today you hear politicians and other people kind of endorsing this idea that there were some preand plan some grand plan for behind the whole idea of homesteading. Jane its been known some of our president s and president ial candidates have been bid fans big fans of little house on the prairie. Was that a subtle message on their part, or was that what they were interested in . Caroline i think you are speaking about Ronald Reagan who famously there was this anecdote about how he used to watch little house on the prairie in the white house with knew, because i think he mike landen, who was the star, producer, and director of the tv show, they were friends. Landon was a big reagan supporter. I doubt much if reagan and the self had read the books reagan himself had read the books or had that sort of knowledge of the background of them, but yeah, there is maybe a little bit of message in that, that it was considered to be whole some. Wholesome. Jane wholesome and hardworking , kind of pulling yourself up i the bootstraps, right . Caroline right. That whole notion of reagan that she obviously didnt support government. Supportviously didnt government. He said something about it some but he comes to you and says im here from the government, and im here to help, jane you are so civil supposed to be suspicious. Caroline yes. That is the worst thing you could hear. In the books, there is this slightly antigovernment jane right. I wasnt going to bring that up until later, but since we are talking about it, i remember reading an essay in the new yorker a few years ago. The person i was talking about, the president ial candidate, Vice President ial candidate, was sarah palin. It became associated with her, and uma thurman seemed to want to perk point out that this idea that people are doing this all themselves and that Laura Ingalls wilder did it all herself wasnt entirely true. That she had had help, the government had given her loaned her money to buy land, etc. I assume you brought that essay. How did you react to that and what is your interpretation of how much help or not from the government ingalls to gets. Thatine its quite clear laura herself had a really contradictory reaction to the federal government, because, for 1902 1920s, she was a loan officer, a for theytreasurer missouri federal farm loan program, so she helped farmers forthut paperwork and so to get these loans. Which were beneficial for farmers. She was very supportive of that program. When the new deal came along, she was opposed. She was opposed to people taking assistance or aid from the government. As many people were. Were, many farmers were. Jane it wasnt an unusual attitude to have. My own mother who was born in the 20s and was one of a family of 10. When i was growing up, i said why dont you like fdr or something and she said because he made us feel poor. I was kind of like, you were poor. During the depression, you were pretty poor, but apparently a lot of people didnt like to like theyor to feel were being told that, i dont know. Caroline its kind of a baffling thing because i think lovedand certainly rose this idea of complete independence and autonomy, and and peoplearmers should never take things from the government. That was shameful, i think, to them. Yet, when you look at the history of the ingalls family, they do accept help. They accepted help, for example, for mary, lauras older sister who became blind as a teenager. That was as a result of an illness, and mary was ultimately sent to college in iowa, which was a state program that paid for that, and they were willing to accept aid. In fact, i think she was the only member of the family that was able to go to college. Know, there was clearly flexibility in the original ingalls family. , i think thatn laura, possibly because she was a little ashamed of some of her own reliance on her daughter financially, developed a somewhat more rigid reaction. Jane when did she start writing or talking about that exactly . Was it more in the 1920s and 1930s . Caroline it was really with the advent of fdr. You dont see laura jane talking about it before then. Tell us about Charles Ingalls. Did he get he took advantage of the homestead act, right . What did that mean . How did that affect the family . Caroline of course the homestead act was one of the biggest government giveaways in history. The family was fine with that. The homestead act is signed into law around 1862 by lincoln. And, he takes advantage of it first in minnesota, although they dont develop a homestead there. It really becomes a factor in their lives when they move on to dakota territory, the town where the ingalls family did help found. The ingalls family did help found. I think it was, from the beginning, a real struggle for them because it involved breaking land, which cutting up the prairie with a breaking flower plow, which in itself is a fiendishly difficult work, to cut through all of the roots and tear off the grasses on the prairie. I think he really by this time he is an older jane i will was he how old was he . Caroline i would have to look, but i think by that time he was in his late 30s. Jane and he had probably been working. Caroline yes, he had been working like a dog all this time. [laughter] caroline i think it really took it out of him, and they were crops, have a few good and so forth, but he wasnt really supporting the family just with homestead. He had to go into town and build houses, and he actually worked mainly as a carpenter in his later years. So, it kind of shows you how tough that was. I think it was easier for big families who had a lot of sons, you know, who could help out. Jane and he doesnt have any sons, right . Oh they had a boy, did he die . Caroline they had lauras little brother freddie who was the locustsfter wiped them out in minnesota. He died less than a year old. There were no signs. Sons. Mary had her disability, so it was a pretty tough life. Jane did they also have where they expected to pay back the government or prove the land , make sure it was producing or something before they could really keep it . Caroline yeah. The process of what they called proving up on the land took about five years. When you apply for a homestead, you filled out some paperwork and paid a small fee, you know, a few bucks. It was 10 for a while and it gradually went up. Clear at have to certain number of acres and had to build something, had to build ashanti f house or shanti or something. At the end of the process, at the end of five years, you had to get some friends or neighbors to help you fill out the paperwork and testify to this. You had to prove you had done this. That had to be published in the local newspaper. Jane really . Caroline thats why a lot of local newspapers were founded, to publish that. Jane also to probably publish announcements even from the government and land. Caroline sure. Jane but to play devils advocate, they are not getting anything really for free from the government because they are also doing the government a favor, arent they . By moving west and kind of helping clear out the indians and create a farm. Caroline yeah, although the utility in some of those farms is and was questionable, because especially on the great plains, in the dakotas, a lot of that farming,not ideal for especially what they called driving land farming, which was just going alone without your occasion. Just relying on whatever Mother Nature provided. Land was marginal for farming. The government knew that when it participated in sending people out there, or allowing railroads to send people out there. Jane oh really . Caroline because the government scientists, like john Leslie Powell had basically told them, this is better for grazing than it is for farming, and you need a lot more of it to be successful. You need a lot more than the traditional 160 acres that the homestead act provided to make a go of it. Pay any eve toot that. Jane what was their motive to that, do you think . Caroline i believe the motive was to help the Railroad Companies pursue their profits. Jane oh really . Good. Aw though . P he lovesim because laura and laura loves him. We saw him on tv, but he sounds like he wasnt a very good provider. Caroline laura knew that. She admitted as much in a letter she wrote to rose. She said Something Like paw was no farmer, no businessman, he was a poet and a musician. I think she loved him for those qualities that were not that practical. , and he wass charm a very affectionate and loving father, and he was i think a musician. Ry talented his fiddle playing, his violent playing was something that made their lives worth living. Even during the darkest hours, which were pretty dark, of the family. So, she came away from her relationship with him, i think, valuing him as a father, even though he had, in a lot of ways, failed as a provider. Or did hethat unusual have like a short Attention Span or something . [laughter] i think it was i think it was kind of restlessness in one way. He loved to be moving on. He had an itchy foot. He clearly disliked it when an area became too settled and overpopulated. He always wanted to keep going and moving on to the next place that was wilder. Himself on wander by these hunting forays. Was that he was just not supremely dedicated to the domestic, farming. Jane what about his poor wife . Was she doing the lion share of the work at home . She sounds a little resigned. Caroline in some ways, she was. That was the thing. That was the lot of many women at the time, to hold down the fort. I think she was a very patient, person in a lot of ways. It seems that she did finally put her foot down. This is that. I think she did that in part for the children that she wanted to receive she wanted them to receive some education. How much how much education did she get . She got some. She did not finish what we would consider high school, and i think she felt bad about that. But she was quite well read for a person of her age. How did she get books . Did they have a library . They never had a library when she was there. About howtalk wonderful it was now that children have access to libraries now. They had a few books. They valued literature. Son