Smithsonian associates. Now is the perfect time to turn off your cell phone or anything else that might make noise during the program. Thank you for doing that. This past march marked the 50th anniversary of the u. S. Navy Fighter Weapons program. We are thrilled to welcome the programs founder, dan pedersen. He entered the u. S. Navy in 1953 and went on to become the senior officer in the group of nine men who formed the navys legendary Top Gun Program at miramar in march 1969. He served in combat during the vietnam war with the flying crews on uss hancock and three on uss enterprise. He retired as a captain having accumulated 6,100 flight hours and 105 carrier landings while flying 39 types of aircraft. For those of how know pedersens story from the 1986 movie top gun youll be happy to know that jerry brook heimer is producing top gun maverick a sequel scheduled to be released in 2020. Pedersens book top gun is available for purchase and signing following this conversation. And here to keep the conversation moving is larry burke, curator of u. S. Naval aviation at the air and space museum. So now please join me in welcoming dan pedersen and larry burke. Are you ready to go . Okay. Im going to take about ten minutes and just set the stage here for larry and i to go back and forth and final preparation for the questions coming from you. The assuming tonight is knowing how many of you have actually read the book . Good. That gives me free play especially with a couple squadron mates back here keeping me honest. Anyhow, ill tell you about how the back came about, the 50th anniversary on the 3rd of march of this year. Top gun was conceived on that date 50 years ago. Thats a long time. It tells you something about how old i am. Jim, my literary agent, has four bestsellers of his own and he came to me along with the famous condor darryl gary you see in the pictures up here. Then sea said were getting close to 50 years. Its time to put the legacy in writing. Id been fighting with the brits. I can show you letters i get from london newspapers and somebody over there says, yeah, we started top gun and the americans took it over. Of course that would ruffle your feathers, which it did. It was time to tell the story, and i happened to be the one who was drafted by the average eight guys because i was a senior. I ended up being the boss man during the initial phase of this and well get into how it was done and who did it and so forth here shortly. One of the benefits of writing this book was it allowed me to think back and i do a comparison with what i know today, and im older. I dont know it all. But i compare what i see and whats in writing about the navy as it exists today, where we are with airplanes and so forth and think it did a pretty fair job based on the reaction of the book and the reviews. One of the things were most proud of are the reviews weve gotten. I started out in 1953 working two jobs going to college like everybody in those days was doing and the draft was breathing down my neck, and so i went in the reserves as i was assigned to a world war ii squadron and i was a mechanic. I worked, and here is the first good one of the night. I was working for a chief named brown and he was my mentor. Mentor will be a key word you hear from me. I carried his toolbox and got his coffee whenever i wanted and he spent an inordinate amount of time teaching me how to maintain those airplanes. How to maintain those airplanes. We then went on, it was right down here, los alameda, california. Want right down here. Im in d. C. Tonight. Forgive me. I do make mistakes. But mentor number two, young lieutenant. We had some tv2, twin cockpit, front and back, and it had flight controls in the backseat. And he said, you know, youre learning to be a jet engine mechanic. Chief brown was still over my shoulder every minute watching me. And he said, why dont you go fly them with me . So i went flying a few times in the backseat of the first jet airplane i had ever been in. And i thought, boy, do i love this. So, over the course of a few months, and he said, you know, he said, youre really pretty good at it. He pretty near taught me to fly that airplane. I diplomat ladnt land it very i could fry it pretty well. So anyhow, he said, would you consider going to Flight Training if i helped you take the exams and prepare you . And i said i talked to my folks. My folks said, thats an honorable profession, naval aviator, we really support that. And so, make a long story short there, i went through Flight Training, pensacola, like we all did. 1956 and 57, 18 months. I did very well. And i think a lot of it has to do with that young lieutenants inspiration that he gave me. He set the stage. He later went on to be head of the fbi in the Western Region of the United States. Hell of a guy. God, what a great man. So, and then we come out of Flight Training, grades are good. That guy down there had some amazing good grades. And i end up with roommates in north highland, famous north highland, san diego, in a Fighter Squadron. First set of orders is to the fleet. And we were we had a special mission. The squadron was amazing when i got there. I dont remember when ron got there, but i know we were very close. But we had a lot of world war ii guys were our seniors in that squadron. And mentor number three, geno valencia, howard addy. Howard addy found the japanese at the battle of midway. He was flying a patrol plane. But we were surrounded by great talent from world war ii in that first Fighter Squadron. We had 60 airplanes, four different kinds. The old guy said, weve done it, we want to stay home, drink a little whisky and take care of mom and the kids. So, they did. And they encouraged us to fly. And so i had all the flight time. This is a key point of where you are today in america. We had all the flight time that we could handle as young pilots. Its not true today. Ill talk more about it later on. But success from that day on, mentoring is the reason. I dont think intuitively i ever knew what ultimately i was capable of doing. I think it was being exposed to great americans. Geno valencia had around 28, 23 victories in world war ii and he was ready to rest a little bit. But his enthusiasm carried over to five or six of us that checked into that squadron. And it was it was good. I went on from that squadron. We had probably 1,500 hours more than any of our contemporaries because of the abundance of flying that we had in those days. And the only way you really get good in Tactical Aviation is to fly a lot. You got to love it. It isnt airline flying. Its combat flying. And you got to set your mind to it. Thats my background. Thats where i got. I went on from there. Dr. Larry knows weve had some time together and he knows a good bit of it. He wants to ask some questions and then well go to questions from the audience. As you can see, we have a stack here, probably more than i need. Well see how it goes. I do actually want to back up a little bit. Is there anything in your background that led you to join the navy in the first place . Is it something you always wanted to do . Or was it something you just kind of you know when, i got exposed when that lieutenant strapped me in the back of that airplane for the first time, after about four or five times i mean, you got to remember in those days, airlines, there werent airliners. There wasnt anything fancy but the jets. It was brandnew and exciting. And those of you who fly i know there are a couple naval aviators sitting back here. Its hard to explain to people who havent been there how absolutely beautiful flying can be. Combat maybe, but, you know, flying flying over the United States i came across california yesterday and i had a window seat. And it was one of those days when i got to look out all the way across the country. And i thought, my god, what a beautiful, beautiful country we live in. And a longwinded answer but, yeah, exposure to it. And im of the personality that i loved it. Id go back and do every single day of it again if i was young enough. Unfortunately, time grabbed me. I hope that gave you an answer. All right. So, youve already sort of mentioned that you go from there. You go to basic Flight Training in pensacola. Yep. And you absolutely loved that. Yeah. Marine dis made believers out of us. You know, you go through essentially a boot camp, basic Flight Training. And then you go to and then you go on to advance. If you do well enough, you get jets and you get tactical jets. And you got to realize, those of you particularly for the ladies, there wasnt very other than korea, there wasnt a lot of male expertise in flying tactical jets. It was something new and really exciting. In advanced training down in texas, i got to fly the same f9, f2s that geno and these guys and Bill Armstrong and that had flown in korea. And its a need ticket ride every day, and they pay you to do it, you know. Thats why. I think i was born to do it and i enjoyed it that much. Longwinded answer. All right. So, actually, regarding the panther, so you started out in a prop trainer in basic, and then you went to, what, the tv2 . No, no. That that old thing up there covered with oil . Thats really that wasnt staged. That was a typical airplane in our day. Snjs and flew t28 after that and then of course i went to advanced training in texas and got to they bring you along pretty fast, you know. Six months six months youre going to cover the spectrum of airplanes. And if youre good if youre good and safe, you got to live through it. Remember that, thats the number one prerequisite. You got to live through it. And i think when i finally got foxy, when i got out of the navy, i think of the original 17 guys in my class, 7 of us were still up and kicking. Its pretty in those days, you know, you didnt have a lot of jet experience. Maintenance wasnt nearly what it is today. Could you just Say Something more about your first experiences in the panther. So, this is the first time oh, yeah, its in the book. Getting into a front line front line airplane by the book. Its in the book. Its in the book. Those of you that dont have one, should have one. Anyway, the f9, f2, these things down in beeville, you could see where the bullet holes had been covered over on them. They covered over them and airplanes were repainted. It was just dynamite. It was a total eticket ride. Number one, youre flying by yourself for the first time. And theres nothing more thrilling than that. And this airplane, it had guns. Oh, do i like guns. Its also in the book. The guns are the primary weapon of choice today, 50 years later. And they always have been. Sadly, when you read the book, youll find the f4 never had a gun. Industry and washington decided not to put a gun in the airplane. I could have saved so many guys on the ground from being ining p. O. W. S. I got called in a couple, three times when somebody got shot down and they were captured by the guy on the ground. If i would have had a gun, i had no other weapon in the airplane. Thats the downside of it. Im sorry. Panthers thats fine. Is dynamite to fly. So, again, in the book you describe take couple of instances in advanced training that really reinforce the fact that you are on your own in that cockpit. Would you care to tell our audience about those . You mean the trip to dallas in the low level . Three, four of us in a division fly a wedge, if you will, and and part of the syllabus was to go from beeville to dallas. Regas there and fly back down to beeville. Thats only several hundred miles, 3 1 2 by car. But in an airplane doing 450, 500 miles an hour, its a handful. Particularly on a day like and they wanted us through Flight Training. There wasnt any weather it wasnt like the weather today, well cancel. We went. And we had about 600foot overcast this particular day and we went, four of us, trying to keep track of each other out on the wings and we swapped the lead back and forth. And were going up to dallas. We do pretty good except coming back, come back and were probably a little bit misaligned on the exact track coming back to beeville. All of a sudden goes between me and a wingy is a red lit tower. And the towers there, we later found out, 1,500 feet. And we were cruising along. We were cruising along 400, 500 feet, just below the clag. Man, that thing went by so fast. The red light on it caught my eye. And i thought, you know, thats a reality check. Its a damn dangerous business if you and a lot of things you cant plan for, no. Thats the only one. And those of you i dont know how many old aviators there are, no one my age, but remember radio range, when we used to fly the radio range, before we had all the modern technology we have today. You have to be able to fly in the soup and navigate using just code, code letters. And in 18 months of training, i got it down. I hated to admit it because i had great grades, but i flunked going into victoria. Instructor in the backseat of a tbird on a radio range approach in there. I got disoriented and weather right down to the deck. It was just terrible. But no excuse. Youre a naval aviator or a two solo bar nav cad at that time. And you were supposed to be able to do that every single time. I didnt. I got it back down. I walked into beeville, grabbed a cup of coffee with my instructor. I thought, boy, this is not good. Youre in trouble. And i was. He gave me a down. First one i had in 18 months. He said, its a good lesson in humility there. I took that with me quite aways beyond that day. Paid dearly for it, but i made it through. Got orders to Fighter Squadron 3 at north island. Yes, sir. All right. So, actually i was going to go to allweather Fighter Squadron 3 next. You get me going sometimes. So, youre assigned there. What was it that made this squadron so unusual . Well, it was all veterans. We probably had the best flight leaders. We were broken into four different flights. The pictures of the guys in leather jackets flying sky race, we probably had the four besz Instructor Pilot leaders i ever flew with in Fighter Squadron, except for maybe in the war. But it was you cant help, when you fly once, twice a day, or as often as you feel like it, truly, thats what we did in that squadron. Thats why we ended up with so very much flight time. Youre around these guys. We stood watches, alert watches. We were air Defense Command working for the air force. On a hokie mission. But somebody in those days, we had to do it. We got really good at it. We won the wadf awards every year that we had that duty. But the benefit to the young ones like me, i was in that Fighter Squadron, an abundance of flying. And i associated with like kind jos, guys that were same mindset as i was. And our mentors and teachers were all the cream of the crop from the second world war. Thats what we ought to be doing today. We need to mentor more young ones in todays Naval Aviation. Therein lies part of the story of top gun. Did you ever find out how this lone Navy Squadron came to be part of norad . No. I didnt care as long as i got to fly. I really didnt. Im not much of a politician. So the other thing is, of course, you were flying the sky red, the douglas f4d, also named the ford because of that designation. What was that like . Because that was the that was the hot rod of the day, wasnt it . God, that was fun. That was fun, challenging, never in the history of my flying career, i never flew anything that had the climb characteristics. And thats where i learned to dogfight. Wed go out there in the book it describes a place. It was illegitimate. It was hell to do it, but it was the only way we could keep dogfighting alive back in 57, 58 and 59. People were trying to revert back to missiles and radar and all the magic stuff, and we go out and dogfight. Friday afternoon go out to San Clemente Island. Area 51. Thats all true in there. We would have gotten courtmartialed if anybody ever but were pretty quiet guys. When you know youre doing something you probably shouldnt be doing. But im not sure that im not sure that our bosses in that great Fighter Squadron didnt look the other way a lot. Which brings us to something. The f4d had guns but did not have a lot of rounds in its guns. It was primarily intended to use guided missiles, which were just coming into service at this time. Rockets. They had 2. 57 rockets on it. Incidentally, if you doubt my statement on the mentality, you change to very sophisticated, expensive they taped off the gun ports. Took all the guns out. And they taped them off and they eventually just covered them all. So even at that day and that time, we never got to use the guns. Never got the fire guns, did we . We won the allweapons meet that year. One of our great friends, don lawler. Don was killed on the kitty hawk. Were you with him on that cruise when he was [ inaudible ] on a night carrier landing he had an engine failure in an a7. But he was as good as they got back in the days. And careerwise, he really did well. But sometimes you roll the dice and you dont win. I write about him in the book. Sir . So youve already brought up this practice of hassling, as you describe it in the book. Makes me nervous. What about it makes you nervous . Its an art, okay . All those of you see a set of wings on a gentleman. Hes nodding. Its an art to dogfight, you know. I got original guys and i, we came up with some sayings and one of them is, second place is dead last. And thats what happens when you dogfight in combat for real. If you dont win, chances are your in a parachute or worse. And the movie did it injustice to us in that regard because it painted us as a bunch of cowboys, you know. And my original guys were all ph. D. S, at least. Intellectually, they all had two combat tours in vietnam. They were of 15 that i had to choose from, they were the 7 best i knew. The picture of mel holmes up there, the guy in the nice hat and all that, he lives in a flight suit. Mel holmes in those days, and ill include the israelis. Ive been flying with the Israeli Air Force guys a good bit. Mel holmes is the best in the world in that airplane. I put that in writing. His wife gave me a big kiss. So but mel was that good. I enjoyed telling you about this, larry. Mel what makes a guy that good . Well, maybe its a god given talent, but mel would strap in the f4 and