American hiamerican histor products are available on the online store. Go to cspan store. Org to check out all of the cspan products. Today marks the 50th anniversary of a Landmark Supreme Court case, tinker v. Des moines. In just a moment well be talking to one of the key players in that case. John tinker will be joining us from des moines, iowa. But first, courtesy of cbs news, Walter Cronkite on the evening news 50 years today. The Supreme Court today endorsed the right of student protests so long as the protest does not disrupt order or interfere with the rights of others. But a dissenting justice hugo black said the ruling begins a revolutionary era of permissiveness fostered by the judiciary. The 72 decision upheld the right of three des moines teenagers to wear black antiwar arm bands to high school. The court said students do not leave their freedoms of speech and expression at the school door. That courtesy of the cbs news and two of the key players in this case, Mary Beth Tinker and john tinker. From des moines, iowa, is john tinker. Good morning, thank you for being with us. Good morning. Its great to be with you. And we apologize that your sister mary beth could not be with us. We understand theres been some ice and weather in the greater des moines area, so we appreciate you trekking out and being with us on this sunday morning. Give our audience thats right. Were give our audience a brief overview of this case. Were having quite a well we wore black arm bands to protest the war in vietnam back in december of 1965. When we were suspended, we decided to sue the School System for violating or First Amendment right to freedom of expression and we lost at the district court, the Federal District court here in des moines. We appealed to the Appellant Court in st. Louis and there they split four to four. So we appealed to the Supreme Court, u. S. Supreme court. There had been a previous case coming out of the fifth circuit where students had been given the right to wear freedom buttons around the Civil Rights Movement. And so with the split then between the two circuit courts, the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case and at the Supreme Court, as you mentioned, we won 72. Our goal for the next hour, and we should also point out, we welcome our viewers on cspan3, American History tv, is to talk not only about the significance of this case but also 50 years later, how and why it is relevant today. From the majority opinion, Justice Abe Fortas with the following, quote, First Amendment rights applied in the School Environment are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students are teachers shed their Constitutional Rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. Can you explain the significance of that decision . Well, this is the first time that the court the Supreme Court had recognized that students in the Public Schools are persons under the law and therefore they are endowed with their First Amendment rights with the proviso that they not disrupt the educational environment. There cannot be a material and substantial disruption of the environment and they cant infringe on the rights of others. But this is the first time that had been articulated by the Supreme Court. And so that was a significant change in the way that students in the Public Schools were seen. And we should point out that while today is the anniversary of the historic Supreme Court ruling, the genesis really begin in the mid1960s. Lets go back to what the country was facing in that time period. Lyndon johnson had just been sworn in to a full fouryear term and the war in vietnam continued to escalate. As we look at the figures courtesy of the defense department, there are an estimated 184,000 u. S. Soldiers in vietnam. And look at the increase from the Previous Year where there were just over 23,000 soldiers and the death toll from a few hundred in 1964 to nearly 2,000 in 1965. So explain what you, your sister, what others thinking at that time period. You were what, 15, 16 years old at the time . Yes. I was 15 years old. I should explain that my sister and i both came up we grew up within the Civil Rights Movement. Our parents were both active in the Civil Rights Movement. Ill just tell a short story here we lived in a small town in iowa that only had one black family and the kids in that family were not permitted to use the public swimming pool. And my father was a methodist minister in that town. He brought that issue to the city council there and instead of just correcting it and allowing the kids to go to the swimming pool, they denied the kids permission and the church where my father was a pastor thought that that was a divisive issue in the church. And so they didnt renew his contract. So he moved to des moines. He was appointed to a Different Church and in des moines my mother sort of made sure that we had black friends. She became involved with the Civil Rights Movement in des moines and, indeed, we did have black friends. And when we invited them to come to our church, that church also did not want to have black people in their church. And so they also did not renew our fathers contract. At that point he began working for a quaker organization, the American Friends Service committee, and his title there was Peace Education secretary. His job was to bring in speakers about World Affairs and to basically promote peace. And so thats the environment that we grew up in. And so by the time the war in vietnam was building up, it was natural for us to be opposed to it. And so by the by thanksgiving time of 1965 there was a large demonstration in washington, d. C. There were two charter buses from iowa. Mostly, they were College Students from the State University of iowa, Grinnell College and the university of iowa, but there were also other peace activists. I asked for permission to be on that bus trip and to go to washington, d. C. , and i was able to go. On the way back from that, there was a discussion on the bus what we might do to continue to protest the war and the idea was raised that we would wear black arm bands. Black arm bands had also been worn during the Civil Rights Era to memorialize the three girls that were killed in birmingham. The four girls, i should say, and the three civil rights workers that were also killed. There were black arm bands worn around that. So it was very natural to wear black arm bands to mourn deaths on all sides of the conflict in vietnam and also we wore them to promote the idea of Robert Kennedy had for a Christmas Truce that year. So when the School Authorities found out that we were going to wear arm bands, the principals got together and they decided that the arm bands would not be permitted. We decided to wear that we really should wear them anyway and so we wore the black arm bands. A completely silent symbol of our opposition to the war. We were suspended from school. There was a Community Decision really among the Peace Community in des moines and in iowa that we would go ahead and pursue the matter in the courts. So thats how it got into the court system. Were talking with john tinker. Our phone lines are open. Were dividing our phone lines, if youre a student or teacher, 2027488000, for all others, 2027488001. We have a picture of your home in des moines. We know that by the case came down in 1969, your family had moved to st. Louis, missouri. To get a sense of what was happening on december the 16th, 1965, you wore the arm band, you were in the high school at the time along with christopher ekhart. Your sister mary beth was in middle school and you have two younger siblings who were in Elementary School. They too wore the arm band, correct . That is correct. We all were opposed to the war. We all felt that it was a horrible loss of life that was going on in vietnam and we were all mourning the deaths. So, yes, we did all wear arm bands. Ill say that the morning that mary beth wore the arm band i was delivering newspapers and it occurred to me that we hadnt had a Group Discussion of it was not just our family and christopher ekhart who worn the arm bands. I was a member of the unitarian youth group and pretty much the whole youth group had decided to wear arm bands. But after we found out that the School Authorities had banned the wearing of arm bands, we hadnt had any kind of a Group Discussion. So while i was delivering newspapers, i was thinking that we really should get together and i got on the telephone and called people up and told them to hold off until we could have a discussion of what we were going to do about that. But mary beth had already gone to school and she left early and, chris, when i got ahold of him, he said, i dont care im going to wear it anyway. And he went ahead to school. After the two of them were suspended the first day, we did have a meeting at chriss house that afternoon. We tried to call the president of the school board and he told us that it wasnt an important issue and that we should wait until january and take the matter to the school board. But that would have been after the Christmas Period and we thought it was important to support the Christmas Truce and we thought that we had a First Amendment right to wear the arm bands. So the rest of us wore the arm bands and we were suspended the next day. Did you ever get an apology after the fact from either the principal, school board members, teachers, others who said you couldnt wear the arm band . You know, we never got a formal apology, but i dont i dont feel one is really required at this point. The des moines School System has been very welcoming to us and has really treated us very well and provided opportunities for us to talk to students and been very they seem to be very supportive of the case as it sits now. Why is your case, 50 years later, relevant today . Well, think of all the issues that students have. Theres obviously the gun violence issue, the parkland shooting being very large a year ago in florida, but any number of School Shootings have taken place, Global Warming is an issue that students are very concerned with, and there are local issues that students encounter. The suppression of student speech often occurs because schools are embarrassed because the students are pointing out problems that the School Administration may be causing. Anyway, the students all throughout the country have things that they want to say and i think its good for our society if they are allowed to say it. Lets get to your phone calls as we look back at the 50th anniversary of this landmark case. One of the cases we featured in our landmark cases series. Michael from coral springs, florida, good morning. Caller good morning. I got to say, this is a real honor to do this. Mr. Tinker, your name is on the ap examine every year. Its kind of cool to talk to you. Thank you, michael. Caller what ive always wanted to ask and im glad you segued into it. Are we just fortune that you guys were protesting something noble like the war or the other reference you made now to some kids want to protest about civil rights and other noble causes. What if eight students came into the School Wearing swastika on arm bands or something another something thats abhorrent. The decision didnt really address what you guys were protesting, just your right to wear them. And so how would you respond to that . Michael, thank you. Well, thats right. Our case looking back on it, it was it was fairly simple in some ways because it was a silent symbol. We werent standing up on the desk proclaiming anything. We were just wearing our arm bands. And it was obviously a political statement that we were making. And so it fit it fit right down the center of what free speech is all about. And so that is fortunate in a way. If you had a swastika or a hate symbol of any kind, i think it would complicate the matter because the disruption to the educational environment is a very important consideration because in our country we have compulsory education and Public Schools are what they call a creature of the state. And so they its the kind of doublesided issue. We have to have an appropriate educational environment and yet because its a creature of the state it has to it has to be true to the Constitutional Rights that we have. So it is a fortunate coincidence of a nondisruptive protest, purely political statement. Our guest, john tinker, a petitioner in the case tinker v. Des moines. It was heard in the fall of 1968 and the decision handed down on this day in 1969. Did you have a chance to listen to the oral arguments . This is kind of a sad story for me. I arrived at the airport in cedar rapids in plenty of time for the 11 00 p. M. Flight, but i had had a long day and when i got to the terminal, full of people, i fell asleep and when i woke up, everybody else was gone. I was kind of surprised that nobody had bothered to just shake me on the shoulder or something to wake me up. But there it was. I dont know if the fact that i had a beard and long hair at the time had anything to do with that. But anyway, i missed that flight and then in the morning i could only get a standby flight and i got bumped off of the flight that connected from chicago to washington. By the time i got to washington and my father came and picked me up at the airport, it was all over. I have since been able to hear the oral arguments and theyre quite interesting. If anyone in the audience would be interested to hear those arguments, they are available online. And theyre available on the cspan website as we carry oral arguments at cspan. Org. You can also go to landmark cases for our 90minute program on this case. Cases for our 90minute program on this case. Greg from holy oak, massachusetts, thank you for waiting. Good morning. Caller good morning. Id like to ask mr. Tinker what his views are on kids not being able to wear their maga hats and shirts to school. Thank you. My personal belief is that we should permit all forms of nondisruptive expression in the schools, especially ones that have political components. There was a case in california where students had wanted to wear American Flag shirts to school on cinco de mayo, which is a mexican holiday, and my sister and i mary beth and i did write an amicus brief on behalf of those students that wanted to wear the American Flag. So i would support the wearing of maga hats or maga shirts. I disagree with that position, but i would certainly support their Free Expression to wear those. Is that the original arm band now on your arm this morning . No, this is not. This is an arm band that has been printed up by the tinker tour, which is a project that my sister, mary beth, has organized and its a commemorative of this 50th anniversary. And the website is . The original arm band the original arm band was just simply black, it didnt have the peace symbol on it. So weve kind of elaborated it a little. The website is tinkertourusa. Org. Mary beth tinker who was part of our landmark cases series described what happened in 1965. Of course, i was very, very nervous because i was a shy kidney wai akid anyway and i was 13 years old in eighth grade. People were talking about what to do and i decided to go ahead and try to be brave like the other kids that i had seen as examples on the news and things, and so i had an arm band and i just had it on and i picked up my friend connie as i usually did on my way to school and she said, you better take that off, and youre going to get in trouble. So then when i got to school i met i saw my one of my favorite teachers mr. Moverly after lunch and he gave me a pink pass and i went to the office and i looked around the office and i looked at mrs. Tanner and the vice principal. They said to take off the arm band because its against the rules. I tell the students in the schools now in the great stance of courage and conviction i said, okay, and i took off that arm band and i gave it to them. I learned an important lesson, you dont have to be the most courageous person in the world, you can be you, you can be you, you can be shared, you can be shy and you can still make a difference because thats what happened. Mary beth tinker along with her brother who made history in the landmark case in the ruling 50 years ago, john tinker is joining us from des moines. Also if you want to follow us on twitter cspanhistory we have a who will. The question is do students today have enough free speech rights at school . As part of our American History tv programming. Among thos