Good afternoon everybody. I would like to begin by thanking my friend the Ranking Member for helping plan and hold this hearing today and i would like to thin thank the expert witnesses on the first panels. In the interest of time we are going to dispense with Opening Statements first of all thank you for this hearing. From the department of justice fbi Homeland Security as well as a separate panel of experts to speak about the Data Security threats in the nation. The title of this hearing in my view doesnt quite capture the nature and scope of the threats. Threat. The problem is bigger than beijing and broader than anyone in the industry. The nation faces an onslaught of cybercrime to b baby internet ce can be a co Complaint Center received 170,000 complaints leading to over 3. 5 billion in losses a 20 increase since just 2018. These threats come not just from criminals but from nation states russia, china, iran and north korea particularly have sanctioned Cyber Attacks against the enterprises. A lot more than our personal data is at risk. That doctors caby doctors can pe hospitals and government with rand somewhere attacks and disable thousands of computers to the denial of service attacks and gain Remote Access to the Water Treatment plants. International criminal syndicates make the business of this often seemingly with license from the nationstates. The federal government must lead the way in deterring the cyber threats. Todays hearing gives the opportunity to look at what we know facing the country and considering what more we should be doing. Here are a few places we could start. By long advocating the fbi to investigate aggressively prosecute cyber criminals and im pleased to see the indictment of the statesponsored hackers. We need to make sure the agencies have the Technical Expertise and resources and Legal Authority to pursue these cases. We need to build our defense capacities in the framework laying out voluntary best practices and industry standards for the energy to operate and maintain vertical infrastructure with a groundbreaking idea in 2014. But we still dont know if it is working. It ought to be stress tested and updated. We can only defend ourselves against threats we know are out there. The president should designate a cybersecurity disclose any power to declassify the government information and share with state and local governments and the general public. Ive been happy to see the dhs living to share more information about the recent Cyber Attacks faster. Finally they need not act alone and International Coalitions of the willing to agree to Common International norms against cyber crimes and intellectual property theft and hold accountable those that transgress. We cannot let the benefactors frustrate efforts to reach the consensus with our allies about the state behavior in cyberspace any more than we would allow the burglars to advise us on defending our Home Security measures. I look forward to discussing these issues and i think the chairman for calling the hearing. Deputy assistant directothe r of the fbi where he oversees Cyber Division operations and the National CyberInvestigative Joint Task force. In the leadership position in the criminal investigative position, Human Resource division in many different fbi offices. Thank you for being with us. Assistant director for cybersecurity at the cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency where he needs to Department Policy development in support of department with efforts to National Risk and he focuses on Critical Infrastructure federal network security, counter cyber crime and improving the security and resilience of the global cyber ecosystem. And the Deputy Assistant attorney general at the National Security division of the department of justice where he oversees the counterintelligence export control section and for an investment review section. One of the things he supervises across the foregoing statesponsored computer attacks as well as enforcement of Foreign Investment security reviews thank you for being with us and now i will swear in all of the members please stand and raise your right hand. Do you affirm the testimony youre about to give us the truth and nothing but the truth so help you god. Very good. Lets begin the questions and enter your statement at the record let me say as we begin that we face a major Security Threat from china this includes the economic security, the military security and cybersecurity in our own personal Data Security. We now know the chinese officials were behind the breach from three years ago that exposed the personal Financial Information of 148 million requires businesses that operate in the country to share data with the government and we know the Chinese Companies are actively trying to scoop up the personal data of american citizens in on tha and on that s talk for a second adult tiktok the most downloaded app more than any other in the country. More teenagers are on now than use facebook. Millions and millions as users but its owned by a Chinese Company that includes Chinese CommunistParty Members in leadership and its required to share the user data with beijing and it has admitted that it sent user data to china to put it blunt this is a major Security Risk for the American People and what kind of data is tiktok collecting, image is of course that the users post but also collects information about the messages that you send about the apps that you use. It collects the sites that you visit and your Search History and your keystrokes and location data. It stores all of this and maybe lots more. I can tell you is the father of two small children i find this absolutely horrifying and we know it is a National Security risk. Since the last hearing on the subject, the pentagon, the department of state, the department of Homeland Security and the tsa all band of air Service Members from using tiktok on government devices. The pentagon went so far as to say and he is should have their children to uninstal on installm their personal devices. Thats pretty extraordinary but its only prudent and thats why today im announcing i will introduce legislation to ban the use of tiktok by all federal employees on all federal government devices. This is a necessary step to protect the security of the United States and the Data Security of every american to so let me ask the panel why are all these Government Agencies banning the use of tiktok, what are the threats that company and others like it goes. Mr. Wallis, we will start with you and then go down the line to anyone that wants to contribute. Go ahead, sir. Absolutely. I couldnt agree more with your points on the holistic approach to how they are getting their data. Its one example of the application to the average citizen doesnt understand the implications of what is behind it and what can flow is basically controlled. I think that is a bigger threat in the Holistic Society approach to the United States not just tiktok but the Data Warehouse whether they are here in the United States or the borders themselves with the overall objective into the holistic database that can be utilized for many purposes. Why is the Chinese Government so interested in all of this data, why were they interested in tiktok . It produces vulnerabilities from u. S. Citizen, companies, proprietary information from the corporations operating by domestically and overseas that creates a massive vulnerability that can be data mined to give a competitive advantage. Do you want to add anything to this . The kind of information that are described presents a lot of risks and advantages to the adversary. We trade that for convenience and i wish we were all aware of what they were giving up when we did that. There is certainly no place for applications like tiktok. Why do you say that, what is the particular threat on the government devices and Service Members . Theres way theres ways we can find alternatives alternatives beyond that, china has amazing programs in the collection of data and developing artificial against the data for the purposes we do not fully know that its our face and voice and location as things are tied very closely that should give us great concern. It makes it easier to target people in for an Intelligence Service to recruit or hack into the systems used by government employeesentities, ceo and other highvalue targets and you cant just protect the important data so when we look at the acquisition we are looking at what is collected by the company and what is made available to the inquirer and adopted by the committee is precisely this data they are concerned with because it enables and it might make china a better artificial and was shown intelligence. I would like to come back to the point about before you might need. Senator white house. Thank you all for being here. There i was a time not long agoe were elected to prosecute International Hackers for fear of diplomatic and business blowback after considerable delay. In order to more effectively prosecute these cases are you able to work around the delays in the process is there something the committee can do to be useful to focus the efforts more effectively for you let me start with that question and then go to the second. I very much appreciate the question. Ive been identified in a number of legislative priority is they want to prioritize three of them. First is a nationwide requirement. It would have a number of advantages including standardized reporting standards for companies and the like. But i would urge to include the notification to all enforcement as part of that because we cannot respond to what we cannot see. And there are significant disincentives to reporting to Law Enforcement. We think about the data breach standards and the notification. Its not the only type of data that we ought to be concerned with. We ought to be thinking about the threats to the infrastructure information and the like and doj is working on a proposal for the legislation now. But a whole variety of potential threats that come when americans and other countries take an application that may come with a payload of some kind that we dont want them to have. It has always struck me because in the Previous Administration there was effort to negotiate cybersecurity standards. And the relative persistent efforts to include russia and china and those negotiations thats like letting the burglars negotiate what your alarm system would look like and between other countries that are not actors in this space it would seem there is Critical Mass out there to develop some standards so that the down side of apps and even others like tik tok there is much broader curtain of defense around a coalition im wondering with the current status is of Homeland Security with that coalition of the willing with that strategy of loading up the apps with the payload. There is a lot to that. Measure the standards are the flexible mechanism to do that. They play a role. We do work very closely with our allies and may be why we should be doing is the eit supply chain we have 20 Largest Telecommunication Companies in the us 20 largest it services and to Work Together to share information on our supply chain risks and more broadly to be software the things we are buying and Government Networks that body has been effective to communicate on risks any one of those industries are seeing those practices together that supports the National Center to give us the mechanisms that we need from governor on government network. I will interrupt because my time is running out. I would like to encourage you to do that in the same way you cannot buy a packet of cigarettes because its dangerous without reading the Surgeon Generals warning on the side the same way you cannot buy a mattress without that consumer tag attached to it. There is a way that the wellintentioned of the world colon surveilled these various apps particularly those that become rapidly popular to put a warning label and then make the public know. I would encourage us to pursue that effort i know that requires the department of state as well and fbi but it seems to me there is a coalition willing to be assembled. Things liked tik tok to give us the hazardous product you dont have to have big standards to know the 100 worst ones after that so we did the garden a little bit so at the moment in my view it is an International Strategy to get them out. Thank you. Thank you mr. Chair i appreciate the conversation we are having this afternoon it is very fascinating so thank you for doing this. All of this state we talk about fees into to try to one china more than being stored in china they are using it to build up to that the United States has privacy law and china doesnt china is collecting their own data and encroaching on our right to privacy. So the entire panel how do we prevent us companies from unknowingly or voluntarily contributing to chinas rise with ai . We have fairly specific authorities so we do think about where data goes with Foreign Investment generally we take the laissezfaire approach that has worked out very well for us. I dont assume all Data Collected by American Companies is going to china but generally there isnt much regulation just please store it someplace safe so our recommendation is the Budapest Convention that senator white house has a good list of countries that adhere to basic norms of cyberspace and as opposed to the authoritarian. Im not the only one. And how Many Companies store data and china . Of american citizens . I dont know that. Look at the terms of service. Moving beyond we are saving unprecedented level of Foreign Investment from china i think many countries are experiencing this around the world but to stifle chinese intent there are some unknowns within implementing reforms with the vetting process so if they did not include Venture Capital investment chinese Investors Associated with the military could have shortcuts and fly under the radar and for those with sensitive and Critical Technology for the entire panel harry working with the Treasury Department to identify those bad actors . Fortunately the 2018 legislation broadened the jurisdiction so we can Reach Investments that are nonpassive and controlling giving us access to personal data in and the regulations we lay that out so just by doing that we identify for lawmakers and policymakers what categories we should be most concerned with and that gives the regime even these noncontrolling investments for personal privacy and security. From the investigative standpoint, looking at the wholesale china threat with that indispensable partner with the criminal branch and the joint task force with over 30 agencies that are co located including treasury so if we come across the supply chain with the Defense Industrial base we set sidebyside with those agencies and is not just those specific indictments against those individuals but the whole of government approach. Absolutely we appreciate that collaboration. We do have a number of American Companies out there and the chinese espionage is more than a threat to our personal liberty as that harms our National Defense what industries do you think are most susceptible to espionage . I would start with the industries where china says they want to achieve dominance i will look like in the made in china 2025 initiative and say if thats what they want to be ahead if you make products within those sectors you are more likely candidate for it theft then talk about different motivation behind that and then in terms of leverage to be concerned about a company that does business here but ultimately the Parent Company is in china and susceptible to leverage by the Chinese Government so those who do business with those Companies May be exposing themselves. Our cases layout ways in which those employees have been coopted or recruited if they are working abroad. So the answer to that is to develop security plans that are country neutral and will protect you from threats of where they are coming from. Thats a really great point. We talk a lot about china today it is also protecting against other bad actors as well. Thank you for being here today. First dont take it personally apple did not show up today because ten years ago this very room they declined my invitation about their complicity of the human rights in china. So what we know the russians have set out to invade our election space. They tried that 2016 we thought they will try it again 2018 and we answered in a variety of ways we cannot discuss openly in the room with a measure of success but we have been warned by intelligence agencies to assume they will be back in some capacity. Illinois was one of the first states the russians act into and 2016 to take control of those photo files and fortunately for us and didnt do anything with it but they had the capacity so here is what and then within their own country and with those information campaigns and then to believe they were not appear the 2020 election campaign. I thank you are saying we should be naive and theres so much we dont know about this and the potential threat that we have if not a direct impact on the election process this is directed and ways to enhance their position of the United States so to represent tik tok but there is a possibility. It is important to think about how countries operate and use different tools. So with china there is a pattern of economic leverage in policy. One example that is retaliating if they invited speaker the government doesnt like another example is to suggest to the businessmen for his interest in china if he communicated a certain message to the hill or an elected official. I dont know if everybody will think about statutes in an instance like that so we have to be plainspoken about the different risks and invest in transparency measures because that is the vector that i see from our cases. So leading media organizations to register which requires individuals representing a foreign principal of advocacy work to publicly register with the department of justice and according to the doj records with those entities those associate which one on china. I have to check the numbers myself i cannot vouch for them today but we certainly consider china one of the principles to prioritize. With that classified and unclassified and then to coordinate to make sure that part of the election were secure so the original point of your question when it comes to protecting that infrastructure with chinese or any others. And then to be advised by the ac partners. And then we prepare for all of them. Thats the involvement of chinese and University Research students as well as faculty members. One university and to have regular remuneration. Can you tell me, is this a serious problem . We have many outstanding students what is the reality . The Counterintelligence Division and that approach the communist party is pushing and to undermine and what it takes to believe a product so those with the aggressive Outreach Program and to bring them up to speed and on that cyberperspective to see that same opposition with the systems to look at those programs to have that cyberintrusion threat with the goal to further programs and what they are doing run those programs. We know the coronavirus. And then not to engage in this wild speculation. I have a few additional questions talking about leverage you are concerned about companies that do business here that report to Parent Companies in china. And concerned about the leverage the Parent Company has can you expand on that . It is subject obviously to our laws but to be reporting back to a company in china. I will give you anxample as huawei is indicted in seattle these are allegations but according to those allegation allegations, huawei engineers and folks working here and in china corporate huawei wanted trade secrets from tmobile and the employees working here said we cant get those we are not allowed to steal this particular technology so the here under the guise to be employees to do business here but were given the direction to steal that technology because us employees were not up to the task so tour around this time a memo goes out companywide to say in substance if information is proprietary and valuable we will reward you. That is what concerns me is doing business here not only subject to our laws could be following direction from abroad so think about whether that Parent Company operates in the environment that will respect our laws its in its best interest to do so or follow a different directive. And with those tools to block acquisitions by Foreign Companies of americanbased companies, do you feel you have the tools instead of acquiring the company for the American Market . They would be similar security concerns for those tools to address that scenario. The committee word say that threat falls outside what should be done that doesnt mean its not a threat and the president and the administration recognize this issuing the executive order to tighten the supply chain the long and short is we shouldnt just be concerned about investments of capital there may be purchases of product and goods and services from outside us that promotes telecommunication from a Security Threat so that lays the framework how to address a situation like that congress is working on commerce but in a Certain Circumstance that is when it would be addressed. Coming back to the Parent Company director ray said he was concerned about us companies to do business with china because chinese law compels Chinese Companies and us Companies Operating in china to have relationships with different Chinese Companies for whatever information the government wants, whenever it wants that seems to be a high Security Risk. Do you agree . Yes. And to have a chinese counterpart or to use networks that are controlled we have a major security problem. Correct . I think differently of the subsidiary first is one that is headquartered here that does have some market incentive. But that is what we are relying on so that shift with time and business ambition is something we can think about. Just a question for the record if i might, many years ago, i think microsoft was the first entity to go to court in a civil action next part today and ask the court for permission to shut down a bought using microsoft as the target. Shortly thereafter, one of the us trade offices put together a team that went after another array of bots it in a similar action getting permission to knock these spots down nobody showed they got the order and that turned into a more robust episode that concluded the department picked it up again and had a more continuing effort back to my argument of weeding in the garden so if you read constantly i think we have had repeated testimony in this committee that no good comes from bots. I would love to get a written response to this question for the record that gives me a current update of where you are on that civil expert take case on that program where you just go through helping the private sector whenever they rear their ugly little heads. Understood . Thank you. Thank you very much panelist for being here. Well take a second for the second panel to come forward. We are delighted to have a second panel of experts and as was mentioned apple again has declined our request and tik tok has declined our request to come and testify maybe we should make it a tradition we will provide an open chair to apple and tik tok you have relevant testimony to give if there is nothing you are afraid of if theres nothing you are afraid to defend come to this committee and hearing room and take an oath like the other witnesses have done and testify. Tell us what you are doing in china. And her relationship with beijing and the labor and that you rely upon we would love to hear its very relevant and the American Public i think to the point deserves to know. We have open spots for them we will continue to do so anytime we address this topic and i hope they see fit to answer questions we are delighted to have a second panel we will introduce some and then follow the same practices for the record. But let me start with a cybersecurity policy Digital Economy fellow at new america where she leads the Great Power Competition project focusing on emerging Communication Technology policies globally thank you for being here. And as resident scholar at aei focusing on the economies in us economic relations with asia also chief economist to provide largescale data on the chinese economy please stand i will administer the oath please raise your hand use where the testimony are about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth help you god. Thank you all for being here. So let me begin by talking with you. Last november our hearing revealed chinese law reveals Companies Like apple and the data to the communist party and according to a number of recent reports there are new regulations that may go further to state china requires Companies Like apple to use government approved Network Equipment that is fully open by all accounts to chinese officials which means they cant say the systems are secure with those chinese approved networks in china doesnt even need permission anymore so lets just ask, to your knowledge where do most cyberassaults come from . At the outset lets distinguish to distinct threats one is Companies Like apple in china where they primarily handle data with ticktock is operating overseas. The first is the ethical question and here is my field rather we talk about pressure from the Chinese Government or the dissidents are those as a precondition for market even the potential of technology to be used in supply chains with the Massive Corporation one incarceration it is bigger and more complex problems and they are prepared to handle themselves while operating in china but neither extreme with the idea that no threat exist or we should cut all ties neither of the extreme interest in values. Now specifically with tik tok Chinese Government access to data. You are correct the number of laws and regulations and standards provide authorities to essentially that require anything they want of these companies. I will say from my experience the observations are different and they dont lend themselves to nice soundbites. There is a massive negotiation there is conflicting interest where there multilevel protection scheme. We often forget chinese corporate actors are not synonymous with the Chinese Government and often times local officials with the economic interest and as a backstop for how far they will go to require data access. And then they routinely push back on data request from the government because doing so makes it look like they are resisting government. So i struggled with how to present this information so why if we end up with the same conclusion that we cant guarantee that data would not be accessed by the Chinese Government because lack of clarity of law or oversight mechanisms, there is no real channel to contest it, why do they need to understand that coexist in the chinese system . So only by understanding the complexity cannot lawmakers create effective and responsible policies to address those risks and i would be happy to give suggestions about that. Thank you. You are an expert on the Chinese Market on the United States interface and you have written about American Companies dependence on the Chinese Market so tell us of the leverage that American Companies with the location of the supply chain and out leverage that that creates when they are interfacing with American Companies. I can do that. So to keep it simple talk about the companies themselves in the context of the law of Congress Passed requiring export controls be updated the department of commerce has not produced much with regulations in the process American Companies have said repeatedly we cannot innovate as well without china they have said that over and over again so in my written testimony i have numbers they are considerable but they are telling us something clearly we cannot innovate as well without china that would hurt us. We also know the Chinese Government has a plan to acquire innovation from everywhere they can they will become more dependent on innovation they admit this as the country ages because of the debt they have accumulated they accumulate more today as we speak. We cannot innovate nearly as well without china. The Chinese Government that really wants to acquire any innovation that it can and it seems why you dont have companies who dont want to testify because they are telling you we are advancing technology because we need them and we can argue about the details but the two main forces of the relationship say us Companies Need that transfer of technology to maintain their position. Just to be clear the chinese corporations or the Chinese Government interest, because they need innovation and they need to import that they have the incentive to try to collect information and try to partner with companies to get our data and information . That is the oversimplification. Yes. So there is a profit motive is also National Security but the motive is very strong on the part of chinese corporations and the Chinese Government. Absolutely a focus economic not the National Security side but you are right there is a domestic political incentive with the population the overseas propaganda a Foreign Policy as well as economic incentives the chinese have a multidimensional incentive to extract information from american tech firms. Thank you chairman. Its great to see somebody who graduated from brown university. And yale law school. Rhode island is glad you are here. We enjoyed your years with us. Some time ago we became pretty close to negotiating a cybersecurity Critical Infrastructure bill. The model we were talking about calling it cyberfor want of a better term it was the small fence analogy that you let most of the internet stay the wild west because who cares but certain things like our military networks and other elements of Critical Infrastructure would be able to find the degree of sanctuary and protection and be evaluated for self protection. And that blew up despite the fact they negotiated on the republican side that this bill will not past with out obama care repealed next to it. So a lot of effort for nothing. But the idea is sensible obviously we do that with our military with a Defense Industrial base has heightened standards to meet in order to qualify as the industrial base. What is your advice to us if we were to take a look now at our Critical Infrastructure protections and add a very general level what steps ought to be taken in a related question and doesnt this framework do the job cracks can we just say we dont need to worry about this any longer . And to stress test at seven years old and needs to be reevaluated in any event just to disclose my view. Word you respond to that . If you need more time to respond please do so. Absolutely agree the Us Government should ensure the us Critical Infrastructure is protected from cyberthreat and then to be well advised with the framework where it is worth exploring if it needs to be strengthened for mandatory the measures so what is the cost of making that mandatory in terms of the speed that it develops and to keep pace so that there is a gap to be focused on more traditional type of technology. So whether or cloud computin computing, operational technology, it is certainly worth congress exploring and to the point of the previous pane panel, its not just about beijing, it is much bigger. We hold much more robust cybersecurity rules equifax and tik tok neither should be allowed to collect and retain the personal data that they have because that would be exposed to the nonstate actors and this is one tool to do that. Thank you. I hope the committee will follow up we did some very good work in the past to define what protections make the most sense for Critical Infrastructure defining what is Critical Infrastructure because as soon as you post a standard the adversary defeats it and if we you visualize best practices but i feel we have let that drop in congress and i feel that in this process is the best available i dont feel it is who is participating and i will just and they are. And i make a 152nd comment . I am not an expert but i am on the chinese incentive and whatever our defense is there has to be an element of punishment. We can have a very high bar and that is appropriate we dont want to have a system we stop 99 percent and theres no punishment for continuing to act that way because the incentive says me get away with it we didnt win this time we will keep trying whatever framework congress creates i dont want punishment to be frequent but repeat bad actors have to face consequences. I agree. Sanctions. At least fly on the wall whether to indict the Chinese Military officers who were involved with the intellectual property theft and there has been enormous pushback from the diplomatic side from commerce and the trade side and from big business the didnt want to have chinese patrons and have pushback so it took a lot of guts for attorney general holder to assist on those indictments and as it turns out and then to blowback and there doesnt seem to be enormous consequences in the reaction to that idea of american agencies to say dont do anything to discomfort for the chinese, we need them has created a secondary layer of influence the chinese can deploy so i have that as a point of reference. You open your testimony before the committee that you argue for the greater resilience and guardrails to see its not exploited. Was happening across campuses i am a person who favors immigration. I believe trade is important and it is growing and globally and domestically and then there is a reality. And corporate espionage and then to have those necessary guardrails to protect the openness of society. Can you reflect on what you see . Also to bring home a reality to you all. s xenophobia and racism are rising and not all Chinese Students one dash are are and then to monitor what they say and Law Enforcement community and then to feel unwelcome. And then to make them feel more welcome and then the capacity for where there are legitimate threats and to strike that balance but so far we are not. In some places they had centers in the unfortunately come up with those questions that are dangerous. So i want to strike the balance what is the right way to do that and not close her eyes to the country that we live in. I dont think those are the problem that the gao report 200 pages long to specifically look at in the objectively factbased way and the effects there was nothing there they found in the report. We have a sixyearold boy to start learning chinese is not a lot of resources so i do a better job to do that for us . I think were looking in the wrong places we need new guardrails it has been exploited so are we putting those guardrails in the right places. I think we are on the same track. Can you comment . And the chinese economy course mostly they were Chinese Students. None of them were a danger to the United States they were 20 yearold College Student to could understand intermediate macro economics. It is a huge difference to normal Chinese Students on campus that is at 90 or 95 percent and chinese researchers and labs with advanced technology. And those that is a participant of this that these are areas of Sensitive Technology you cannot have Chinese Nationals. And yet the rest of the students it is not a National Security matter. It is a campus political manner and the split is there a sense of technology . So it turns out the best and brightest students in these fields are from china and the expertise to do with these so for them it is the dilemma to close down the research operations. But 20 years ago they didnt have a flood of Chinese Students. And then we were doing it pretty easily for a long time. And to allow them to thrive in the 19 nineties and into the 2000s. With the office of science and department of energy and your colleague has been a leader to those subjects we have American Students that can excel. There is a hearing going on right now where the secretary of energy is literally testifying what is a dollar amount to put into quantum computing and then to be significantly recognized for its leadership with largescale computing but there is a big difference between a budget and a very bipartisan response to invest in more in the next generation technologies as we all know. In a whole series of fields but then to focus on one specific issue the way they saw three g and four g pass them by and then to strengthen the global system and with the head of the intellectual Property Organization with a strong focus word is a successful competitor my argument would be there is a Chinese National and those regarding ai. And with the National Security risks. And those that are significantly influencing those standards . The Chinese Government recognizes they have a seat at the table and with five g they are ahead of the curve. And with the ai and five g standards. There is no question Chinese TelecomCompanies Like huawei see one send more representatives to set the five g standards. On the west side there is a number of things we can do to restrict those from participating in standardsetting and then to undermine the ability to do that so there is an active effort in china and scholars and policymakers and industry to get ahead of the curve with the ai bias and safety and ethics where the us has had an opportunity to step up to the table. The rule for these technologies have yet to be written and and this is also an area we should be working. We know they are actively considering i know we have the bill was transparency and similar discussions taking place but how are we discussing these issues . I would also argue there is a National Security were at risk if we do decouple the china and lose visibility as they think about these issues it is probably far more dangerous to us interest. So the bill says if you use an algorithm whether a Mortgage Loan with the demonstrably disparate impact and then to show how they produce that outcome. And then provide protections. So if you think we have a coordinated plan around ai and five g and the folks that we are sending to standardsetting bodies have that balance between Civil Liberties and National Security. I will take the more general answer. I dont see how we can have a coordinated plan. I dont think we decided and i am very sympathetic but the administration has decided about that level of commitment i dont mean that as the unvarnished positive with the ability to cooperate with the chinese under president xi but we are going on giving up on globalization if we dont defend it. And with those commitments with the wto are under question im not sure if we can work with the chinese under president xi but first we have to answer if we want to have those Global Standards even though the chinese will cause problems and if we dont that we have to set that up without them. I think the question has been answered. Im not accusing anyone here but there is total decoupling and then there is nothing. Of course that is not the choice. Where is the acceptable outcome where we are willing to work with the chinese . Can we get that with the current Chinese Government . The answer is probably no but to start having a plan. Its obviously not a bipolar world but one question would be of the complete decoupling in partnership is there a role of a Technology Alliance of the multilateral effort to have a similar commitment are they interested to look at it protection. Absolutely. The most important area of conflict is the eu and the United States. Here is where that how important it is into with that european and partners that is and opportunity with the data flow to put in the safeguards to facilitate with the algorithmic transparency. Congress is not moving as quickly so there is a Critical Role to play. And it is a reminder we have critical opportunities we are missing. So where every Elementary School child has the opportunity to explore delaware. [laughter] so as a final editorial comment and that credibility like standardsetting to have a strong system domestically and we have done things to weaken her own system and the that protection of invention and then to engage effectively with our allies. Thank you to our witnesses. As we talked a moment ago about the incentives on the chinese side to get American Tech Companies in two china. And then read reports of the hunger and thirst to be in the Chinese Market and then in terms of content moderation to develop the platform that would censor content to gain access to the Chinese Market why would they be so eager to gain access to the Chinese Market what is that incentive structure . I dont mean to be polite but money with us affiliates in china the Us Government data it probably has rose since then but probably 400 billion and important on the nasdaq to get that revenue from china. To add to that at the economic point, people have the idea the china is a rich country. It is nowhere close the average income if you dont use gdp but actual money in their pockets. If you have a positive you are chinese spending on technology there is a lot of growth left and the Companies Feel like no i see china slowing down and struggling with their issues but there still a chance they will grow back. Because they are much poorer in one than the us. China may be slowing a 2 percent but we still have a shot at 6 percent not only is there a lot of money but there is potential for a lot of money in the second part is still the draw because if we have an alternative now we see the coronavirus so now where do you lead them to . If you have that alternative we will grow really fast theres a lot of problems in china im sure you know what they dont have is the volume of sales in the growth and the growth and other countries