American history textbook, but if you dig a little bit deeper, theres an incredible history just beneath the surface. Lindsay, also a White House Historical association historian and new in the role there. Were going to spend some time with both of you learning about your work and also about the association. So im going to ask you to give the elevator speech about the association itself, how it got started and what its mission is. Sure, so the association was founded by Jacqueline Kennedy to preserve and protect the history of the white house and then share that history with the American People more broadly. And since then, weve worked on that mission to try and cultivate the white house, the first floor especially, as sort of a museum for the people to tell the story of the white house and the story of the nation and to try and make it a little bit more accessible for visitors that come through. Why the first floor specifically . Sure. So the first floor is often referred to as the state floor. It has the historic rooms when we think of the color rooms, the red room, the green room, the blue room, the east room, and thats where a lot of the big events that we think of in American History have taken place, where a lot of the famous diplomats have been greeted and where a lot of the interactions daytoday, both in terms of the workers and the people who live there, took place. So thats the room that we really thats the floor, excuse me, that we really focus on and its filled with beautiful pieces of furniture and art that represent the white house history more broadly, but also different parts of the american experience. So we have american landscapes that showcase all the wonderful landscapes available in the nation and also key moments in u. S. History as well. Do you have an official role with the white house . So we are the private nonprofit partner that works with the white house. So when i explain it to people, think of it almost like a foundation with an educational mission. Because the federal government is only going to appropriate money essentially for the maintenance and upkeep of the building, but if you want the state floor to have president ial portraits, state services, historic artifacts that are returned to the white house, all of that has to be raised privately because theres no taxpayer money used for those types of things. Do you have a say as to what pieces are in the white house . How does that all work . So there is a group called the committee for the preservation of the white house. It consists of a lot of the major heads of various federal agencies like the smithsonian, the white house cure rater, the head of the park service and theres a number of president ial appointees that also serve on the committee. And the Association Works for the committee for the preservation of the white house to acquire things, but then also for various renovation projects. So when First Lady Laura Bush decided to renovate the linking bedroom, the association helped fund the actual project itself, but also the research that went into it. So its called an association. Do people belong as members . We do have a membership program. In fact, its grown by leaps and bounds the last two years. And what we tell people is that for a pretty modest fee, i think its only 50, that they can help us preserve and enhance the executive mansion for future generations. And that money goes toward Public Programming, towards enl indicati education initiatives. But also our publication, the guide book, which was something that was thought up by first lady Jacqueline Kennedy and were now moving into our 25th edition. And of course the White House Christmas ornaments, Historical Association ornaments, which have been around probably 30 plus years now, i would think, and they used to be the primary way that the association raised money, is that right . Yes, thats right. And it still is a big part of our fundraising plan. Its a wonderful ornament. Theres one every year that represents a different presidency. This year were celebrating president dwight d. Eisenhower. This year its the helicopter because president eisenhower was the first president to ride in a helicopter. You came to the association with a relatively new president , and tell me the story of how you came to be. You worked or associated with one another previously and then he recruited you. I would like to hear that story. So i first met stewart many years ago when i was at mount vernon doing research and my diss dissertation was on George Washingtons tomb and the memory of George Washington. I started researching there, i think, in 2012 or 2011 and it was before they had the fred w. Smith library, so at that point in time the staff and all the materials were sort of crammed into the Ann Cunningham administration building, so it was pretty tight quarters. So we inevitably crossed paths and i asked if he wanted to grab coffee sometime and we kept in contact, and then i continued on my graduate studies. He left mount vernon and then he ended up landing at the White House Historical association, and then two years later i defended my dissertation on washington and about five months later i got a phone call and he said theres a historian position open, would you consider applying . And i said absolutely. And, before i knew it, i was moving to washington, d. C. To start at the association in the fall of 2016. But youve described yourself in the same article that i referenced before as selftaught more or less on white house history because theres not an existing graduate program. Unfortunately, yeah. And i think lindsay probably shes going through the growing pains of this right now. In process. When we go into these very specific graduate programs, oftentimes we end up writing about a Research Topic that is very specific, very narrow, very focused, and our scholarly training reflects that. We are experts on early American History. That was our training. But now, being a white house historian, the story of the white house doesnt end in 1820, it continues and changes and evolves and all of a sudden now you find yourself using all of your knowledge of American History and starting to connect the dots, you know, in terms of major changes in American Society or demographic or economic changes. You can see these things sort of unfolding at the white house, too. So its one of those things where you dont really learn the depth of the history until you actually get into the job and then you realize how incredibly complicated and complex it actually is. What is your story . How did you get to the association . So i actually met matt, we were both at mount vernon as fellows and we were there for an extended period of time and i was working on my dissertation, which is also on washington but on a different aspect. And we stayed friends and communicated and touched base occasionally about what we were up to. And then i had a postdoctoral flip in dallas at smu and that was coming to an end and they happened to have an opening and matt called me and said, hey, we have this position thats coming up, would you like to apply . And i said sure. And it all worked out and i started in february. So i was very fortunate that that as many historians know, the job market is not particularly great, so i feel very fortunate to be able to do history work for a living, which i love, and to, you know, work in a place that is really fantastic. How many historians does the association have on staff . Two. The two of you . Here i am with the whole history team. You have them all in the room, right. Do you find it im sorry. I was going to say we do have a Fellows Program at American University, so during the Academic Year one of their public history masters students will work with us in lieu of like a research assistant. So in a way its sort of like we have three historians on staff and then were always bringing in students from other programs. This summer were going to have a doctoral student from George Washington university. Weve brought students from usc the last two summers. So were always trying to get new perspectives and new experiences and also students from different parts of the country who can come and learn and work with us in d. C. Our network was a very Long Association with bill sale, white house historian. What role does he play . So bill is primarily based out of texas, and when he comes up we usually have a few conversations about what were working on and what hes doing and hes very inquisitive. He likes to make sure that weve looked into all of the sources which he knows about. Hes an encyclopedia. You might as well sometimes when we look for information and we just cant find it ot the internet, its best to write an email to bill seal, because chances are he probably knows or hell know where to look. And bill, ive been at the association for about two and a half years and bill has been a great mentor in terms of sort of like these are the places you should start looking and these are the things you should start reading. So ive tried to take that up and impress that on lindsay and and for new people when they come on, the first thing thats handed to them is his master work on white house history, which right now is two volumes and were coming out with a third volume in a couple of years. And so working through that is so much information already and such a great place to start. So he is always our starting point for learning about the history. Do you find it slightly ironic that as historians youre probably specialists in George Washington, which was the only president never to live in the white house . Yeah. It is a bit ironic and i feel like we have to at least make a joke about it. Otherwise people will kind of snicker on the side. So i always tell people its kind of interesting that here we are and he put a huge stamp on the building. What did he do specifically in terms of the building . First and foremost, he selected the site where it was going to be, he selected where the city was going to be and where the house was going to be within the city. He had a Surveyors Training and background and really enjoyed partaking in that as sort of a hobby once he was older. And so he came to d. C. , he sort of surveyed the entire potomac and selected the spot. And once the spot was selected and the process was actually in place, he picked which design was going to be implemented and he worked with all of the various architects to make it happen. And he also met with james hoeben before selecting his design and i suspect, although there isnt a record of these conversations, i suspect that he said here are the things im looking for for his president s house in philadelphia, he had a bow window added to the reception rooms, which i think he then had brought into the white house in the oval drawing rooms we see. So there are certain architectural elements that he absolutely brought to the white house. And what do you want people to know about washingtons association with the white house . When it comes to washington, i see the white house essentially as a primary source. So if you study the evolution, the changes in the architecture, the materials that are used, the laborers, the designers, the commissioners, it all traces back to one source and its president washington. And even though he didnt live in the house, i mean, he built the house like he was going to live in it and thats not to suggest that washington wanted to be president forever. Its to suggest that he thought that the president s house needed to represent the head of the state for a strong new republic. And that was the vision that he had for that house. Even though he really had no intention of living there. And it was interesting kind of seeing the dynamic go back and forth between him and jefferson. Jefferson had a much different idea about what the house should look like, but lindsay, as she allude to do earlier, there wasnt much in washington d. C. At that time. It was mostly farmland, swamps, marshes, so to put this striking building in the middle, it was a mess to my knowledge the world that the United States president should be respected and it should be a symbol thats trez urd by its people. So while we are on the subject of George Washington, you mentioned your dissertation, your research, which is on the tomb and the creation of memory of George Washington. Youve been out talking with people about that. How do you link that book which is specific to a president who didnt live there and a tomb in mount vernon with the work youre doing at the association . So i really see washington as sort of the lynch pin between those things. Now, theres also sort of a connection with the u. S. Capitol as well because at one point there was a plan to entomb washington in the capitol beneath the kript and they wanted to have an open air rotunda, so even though washington didnt live in the building there were plans and designs at different moments to yen to entomb him in the capitol. Then i see the Washington Monument, which sort of became the substitute in the century for memorializing washington. They wanted to build something magnificent and the Washington Monument standing at 550 feet tall, it was pretty incredible for its time. I think it ended up taking about 40 years just to complete. What was the focus of your research . Sure. So my book is called the president s cabinet, George Washington and the creation of an American Institution and it looks at how the cabinet actually came about. Its an institution were all familiar with, its very public, but it is not in the constitution, it was not created by any legislation. So my book set about asking where did it actually come from. And the answer is that washington created it about two and a half years into his presidency to provide advice and support when constitutional questions came up or diplomatic crises. And it really was intended to be a private advisory body for the president to use as he saw fit. Washington convened the cabinet in his private study in the president s house and the president s following him really followed that model. So jefferson was the first president to actually convene the cabinet in the white house and it has continued to meet in the white house and sort of both a public and private sort of way, sense then. And so thats really thats the story of my book and then how it sort of connects to this broader story. If people have a rare opportunity to see where the cabinet meets, where is it in the white house . So the cabinet room has met in a number of different places. In jeffersons presidency it met in his private study which is now part of the state dining room. It then moved upstairs for quite some time, lincoln and all of most of the 19th century president s met in the cabinet room upstairs. And now matt can correct me if im wrong, but now it is in the west wing. Right by the oval office . Right, its adjacent to the rose garden. And across the history of president s using the white house for it was a residence, it was an office, a place the public came regularly. What period of time would it have really been a functioning office for the president in the residence part of it itself . So as lindsay said, most of the 19th century the president s would have used that second floor space, which was technically part of the residence and the private quarters. The president s generally lived on the west side of the hall. And on the east side of the hall, thats where president ial staff was located. But over time, as presidencies and administrations grew larger and larger and more staff were required, by the time you get to about 1900, its when theres just not space and the president s staff needs more room. And its when Theodore Roosevelt becomes president in 1901, one of the things hes going to do is build the west wing. Hell demolish the conserve toer and greenhouses off to the west and theyll build the first iteration of the west wing. And in that west wing he wont have an oval office, will yarm howard taft introduces that later. But the cabinet room will be moved over there and really then the white house becomes more at least the second floor is more of a home as opposed to being a shared space for most of 19th century. Thats the subject of your next book, ive heard. The renovation of the white house. What aspects are you looking at . I really want to tell the story of the renovation through the roosevelt family because i think theres a misconception that Theodore Roosevelt did everything himself. But actually Edith Roosevelt contributed to a lot of his ideas and policies. In fact, when they moved into the white house they drew a diagram of where the children were sleeping on the second floor and then she put her office, which was the second floor oval room and its right next door to the president s office. They actually shared a door. In fact, when he goes down to see the digging of the panama canal, he brings Edith Roosevelt. So in terms of first lady responsibilities, i mean you see something shifting there at the turn of the century, that roosevelts had a very different relationship and it was something where i think they treated each other much more like partners and equals when it came to things like politics, but also family. Women still could not vote at that point in time . Right, exactly. So when you look across, and this is a question for both of you. When you look across the history of the white house, which president s were most influential in changing the building to what we know today . So the roosevelts, both of them are huge, fdr was obviously in the white house for such a long time so he was going to have a huge impact. And just after him truman oversaw a h