Discussing his book top gun an american story, Aerial Combat and how his book inspired the 1986 movie to the gun. Good evening. Im Lauren Rosenberg with smithsonian associates. Welcome to tonights program. To our members, im so glad youre here. Its your support that makes events like this possible. And if youre joining us for the first time, an equally warm welcome and open invitation to explore the wide range of programs we offer at smithsonian associates. Now is the perfect time to turn off your cell phone or anything else that might make noise during the program. Thank you for doing that. This past march marked the 50th anniversary of the u. S. Navy Fighter Weapons program. We are thrilled this evening to welcome the programs founder, dan pederson. He entered the u. S. Navy in 1953 and went on to become the senior officer in the group of nine men who formed the navys legendary Top Gun Program at naval station miramar in march 1969. He served in combat during the vietnam war with the flying crews on uss hancock and three on uss spr prize. He retired as a captain, having accumulated 6,100 flight hours and 1,005 carrier landings while flying 39 types of aircraft. For those of you who know pedersons story from the 1986 movie top gun youll be happy to know Jerry Brockheimer is planning top gun maverick, a sequel in 2020. Pedersons book toll gun is available for purchase and signing after this presentation. So now please join me in welcoming dan pederson and larry burke. [ applause ] are you ready to go . Okay. Im going to take about ten minutes and just set the stage here for larry and i to go back and forth in final preparation for the questions coming from you. The assumption tonight is that no one how many of you have actually read the book . Good, because that really gives me free play. [ laughter ] especially with a couple squadron mates sitting back here to keep me honest. Any how, ill tell you about how the book came about. Its the 50th anniversary on the 3rd of march of this year. Top gun was conceived on that date 50 years ago. Thats a long time. Tells you something about how old i am, but jim hornfisher, my literary agent, has four best sellers of his own, and he came to me, along with the famous condor, who you see in the pictures up here, and they said, were getting close to 50 years. Its time to put the legacy in writing. Ive been fighting with the brits, you know, i could show you letters i get from london newspapers, and somebody over there says, yeah, we started top gun and the americans took it over. Of course, that would kind of ruffle your feathers, which it did. Weve been fighting back and forth. It was time to tell the story. And i happened to be the one who was drafted by the original eight guys, because i was a senior. I ended up being the boss man during the initial phase of this. And well get into how it was done and who did it and so forth here shortly. One of the benefits of writing this book was it allowed me to think back and i do a comparison with what i know today, and im older. I dont know it all, but i compare what i see and whats in writing about the navy as it exists today, where we are with airplanes and so forth, and i think did a fairly good job based on the reaction of the book and the reviews. One of the things were most proud of is the reviews weve gotten. I started out in 1953, working two jobs, going to college, like everybody in those days was doing. The draft was breathing down my neck i went into the reserves. I was assigned to a world war ii squadron. I was a mechanic. I worked here is the first good one of the night. I was working for a chief named brown, and he was my mentor. Mentor is a key word youll hear a lot from me. I worked for chief brown. I carried his tool box and got his coffee whenever i wanted, and he spent an enormous amount of time teaching me about the airplanes. Down here in california not down here. Im in d. C. Tonight. Any how, forgive me. I do make mistakes. But we had the first squadron in the navy. Mentor number two, young lieutenant. We had twin cockpit, front and back, and had flight controls in the backseat. And he said, you know, youre learning to be a jet engine mechanic. Chief brown was still over my shoulder every minute, watching me. And he said why dont you go fly them with me . So i went flying a few times in the backseat of the first jet airplane i had ever been in. And i thought, boy, i love this. So over the course of a few months, and he said, you know, youre really pretty good at it. He pretty near taught me how to fly that airplane. I didnt land it very well, but i could fly it pretty good. [ laughter ] so anyhow, he said if you would you consider going to Flight Training if i helped you take the exams and prepare you . And i said talked to my folks and my folks said thats an honorable profession, naval aviator. We would really support that. So, i went through Flight Training, pensacola, like we all did, 1956 and 57, 18 months. I did very well. And i think a lot of it has to do with that young lieutenants inspiration that he gave me. He set the stage. He later went on to be head of the fbi in the Western Region of the United States. Hell of a guy. God, what a great man. So then we come out of Flight Training. Grades are good. Got down there. Had some amazing good grades. And i end up with roommates in north island, famous north island san diego in the fiveyear squadron. First set of orders to the fleet. And we were squadron was amazing when i got there. I dont remember when ron got there, but i know we were very clo close. But we had a lot of world war ii guys were seniors in that squadron and mentor number three, gino validcha, howard aevy, found the japanese at the battle of midway, flying a patrol plane in those days. But we were surrounded by great talent from world war ii in that first Fighter Squadron. We had sexy airplanes, four different kinds. The old guys said weve done it. We want to stay home, drink a little whiskey and take care of mama and the kids. So they did. And they encouraged us to fly. And so i had all the flight time. This is a key point of where you are today in america. We had all the flight time that we could handle as young pilots. Thats not true today. Ill talk more about it when we get later on, but success from that day on, mentoring is the reas reason. I dont think intuitively i ever knew what ultimately i was capable of doing. I think it was being exposed to great americans. Gino valenchia what did he have, 23, 28 victories in world war ii, and he was ready to rest a little bit. But his enthusiasm carried over to five or six of us who checked in to that squadron. Had probably 1,500 hours because the abundance of flying that we had in those days. And the only way you really get good in Tactical Aviation is to fly a lot. Youve got to love it. It isnt airline flying. Its combat flying, and youve got to set your mind to it. Thats my background. I went on from there. Dr. Larry knows, weve had some time together and he knows a good bit of it. So he wants to ask some questions, and then well go to questions from the audience. All right. So as you can see, ive got a stack here, probably more than i need. Lets see how it goes. So i do actually want to back up a little bit. Is there anything in your background that led you to join the navy in the first place . Is it something you always wanted to do, or was it something you just kind of no. You know, when i got exposed, when that lieutenant strapped me in the back of that airplane the first time, after about four or five times. I mean, youve got to remember in those days, airlines there werent airliners. There wasnt anything fancy but the jets. It was brand new. Theres a couple of naval aviators sitting back here. Its hard to explain to the people who havent been there how absolutely beautiful flying can be. Combat may be, you know but flying. Flying over the United States. I came across california yesterday, and i had a window seat, and it was one of those days when i got to look out all the way across the country and i thought, my god, what a beautiful, beautiful country we live in. Thats a longwinded answer. But, yeah, exposure to it and im of a personality that i loved it. I would go back and do every single day of it again, if i was young enough. Unfortunately, time grabbed me. But i hope that gave you an answer. All right. So you already sort of mentioned that you go from there, you go to basic Flight Training in pensacola. Yep. And you absolutely loved that. Yeah. The marines made believers out of us. You go through basic training, Flight Training and then go on to advance. If you do well enough, you get jets, tactical jets. Youve got to realize, those of you, particularly for the ladies, there wasnt very other than korea, there wasnt a lot of male expertise in flying tactical jets. It was something new and really exciting. In advance training, i got to fly the same if not f2s that gino valencia and these guys, Bill Armstrong had flown in korea. And, you know, its a ticket ride every day. And they pay you to do it, so, you know. Thats why. I think i was born to do it, and i enjoyed it that much. Longwinded answer. Most are. All right. Actually, regarding the panther, you started out in a prop trainer in basic. And then you went to, what, tv2 . No, no. That old thing up there covered with oil, thats really that wasnt staged. That was a typical airplane in our day, snjs. And flew a t28 after that, went to advanced training and they bring you along pretty fast, you know. Six months, youre going to cover the spectrum of airplanes. And if youre good, if youre good and safe you have to live through it, remember that. Thats a number one prerequis e prerequisite. You have to live through it. Seven of us were out and kicking. In those days i didnt have a lot of jet experience. Maintenance isnt nearly what it is today. Could you just say its something a little more about your first experiences in the panther . This is the first time youre getting into oh, yeah, its in the book. A front line aircraft by the book . Its in the book. Those of you that dont have one should have one. Airplanes were repainted. It was just dynamite. Total eticket ride. Youre flying number one. Flying by yourself for the first time. Nothing more thrilling than that. This airplane had guns. Do i like guns . The guns are the primary weapon of choice today 50 years later and they always have been. Sadly when you read the book, youll find that the f4 never had a gun. Industry and washington decided not to put a gun in the airplane. I could have saved so many guys on the ground from being pows. I got called in three times when somebody got shot down and they were captured by the guy on the ground. If i had had a gun, i had no other weapon in the airplane. Thats a downside of it. Im sorry. Panthers are dynamite to fly. Yeah. All right. So again in the book, you describe a couple of instances in advanced training that really reinforce the fact that you are on your own in that cobbingpit. Oh, yeah. Would you care to tell our audience about those . Trip to dallas in the low level . Three, four of us in a division fly a wedge, if you will. And part of the sill bus was to go from immediateville to dallas, Naval Air Station regassed there and flied back down to immediateville. Several hundred miles, three hours, 3 1 2 by car. But in an airplane doing 450, 500mileanhour is a handful, particularly on a day like and there wasnt any they wanted us threw Flight Training. There wasnt any weather not like the weather today. Well cancel. We went. And we had about 600 foot overcast this particular day. Four of us trying to keep track of each other out in the wings and we swapped the lead back and forth. And were going up to dallas. And we do pretty good, except coming back. Come back and were probably a little bit misaligned. Going back to immediateville. A red lit tower. Later found out 1500 feet. Were cruising along 400, 500 feet, just below the clag. And, man, that thing went by so fast. The red light on it caught my eye. And i thought now thats a reality check. [ laughter ] its a damn dangerous business and a lot of things you cant plan for. Any how, thats the only one. And those of you, i dont know how many aviators there are, no one my age, but remember radio range, when we used to fly the radio range, before we had all the modern technology we have today . Youve got to be able to fly in the soup and navigate using just code. Code letters. And in 18 months of training, i got it down. I hated to admit it, because i had great grades, but i flunked going into victoria, instructor in the backseat of a tbird on a radio ranger approach in there. I got disoriented. Watering right down to the deck. It was just terrible. But no excuse. Youre a naval aviator, youre supposed to be able to do these things every single time. And i didnt. And i got it down. And i went back and landed, grabbed a cup of coffee with my instructor and thought boy, this is not good. Youre in trouble. First one i had 18 months. He said thats a good lesson in humility there. I took that with me quite a ways beyond that day. I paid dearly for it but i made it through. I got orders to Fighter Squadron three so you were assigned there, what made this squadron so unusual . It was all veterans. We probably had the best flight meters. The pictures of the guys and their jackets flying and we probably had the four best instructor pilots and leaders that i ever flew with. But it was you cant help it, when you fly once, twice a day, or as much as you feel like it, truly thats why we ended up with so very much flight time. Youre around these guys. We stood watches, alert watches. We were air defense command, working for the airports. Kind of a hokey mission but someone had to do it. We got good at it and we won the awards every year for the duty, but the benefit to the young ones like me, an abundance of flying. Associated with likekind jos, guys that were the same mindset as i was, and our mentors and teachers were all the cream of the crop from the Second World War. That is what we ought to be doing today. We need to mentor more young ones in todays navel aviation. Therein lies part of the story of top gun. Did you ever find out how this lone Navy Squadron came to be part of norad . No. I didnt care, as long as i got to fly. I really didnt. Im not much of a politician. So the other thing was you were flying the sky raid, the douglas f 4d. Also nicknamed the ford because of that designation. What was that like . That was the that was the hot rod of the day, wasnt it . Yeah, that was fun. That was fun, challenging, never in the history of my flying career, i never flew anything that had the climb characteristics. And thats where i learned to dogfight. We would go out there in the book, it describes a place that was illegitimate. It was hell to do it, but it was the only way we could keep dogfighting alive back in 57, 58 and 59. People were trying to revert back to missiles and radar and all the magic stuff. And we would go out and dogfight, friday afternoon go out on the island, area 51. Thats all true in there. We would have gotten courtmartialed if anybody had ever but we were pretty quiet guys, you know, when you know youre doing something you probably shouldnt be doing. But im not sure that our bosses in that great Fighter Squadron didnt look the other way a lot. Which actually sort of brings us to the other thing about the f4d did have guns but not a lot of rounds in its gun. Yeah. It was primarily intended to use guided missiles. Rockets. Incidentally, if you doubt my statement on the mentality of change to very sophisticated, expensive they taped off the gun ports, took all the guns out and they taped them off and they eventually just covered them all. So even at that day and that time, we never got to use the guns. When we went to weapons we never got to fire guns, did we . We won the allnavy weapons meet that year. One of our great friends, don lawler. Don was killed on the kittyhawk. Were you with him on that cruise when he was [ inaudible ] on a night carrier landing, he had engine failure in an a7, but he was as good as they got back in the days. Careerwise. He really did well. Sometimes you roll the dice and you dont win. I write about him in the book. So you already brought up this practice of hassling, as you describe it in the book. Makes me nervous. What about it makes you nervous . Its an art, okay . All those of you. I see a set of wings on a gentleman. Hes nodding. Its an art to dogfight, you know. I got my the original eight guys and i. We came up with some sayings, and one of them was, second place is dead last. And thats what happens when you dogfight in combat for real. If you dont win, the chances are that youre in a parachute or worse. It very, kind of the movie did an injustice to us in that regard, because it painted us as a bunch of cowboys any how. And my original guys were all phds, at least, intellectually. They all had two combat tours in vietnam. The 15 i had to choose from, they were the seven best i knew. The picture of mel holmes up there, the guy in the nice hat and all of that, he lived in a flightsuit. Mel holmes in those days, and ill include the israelis. Ive been flying with the Israeli Air Force guys a good bit. Mel holmes was the best in the world in that airplane. I put that in writing. His wife gave me a big kiss, but mel was that good. I enjoyed telling you about this, larry. What makes a guy that good . Well, maybe its a godgiven talent, but mel would strap in the f4, and when he was out, engaging somebody in a dogfight, would never look back in the cockpit. He had that kind of perception. The airplane became one with him. Now, out of the seven or eight guys that i picked top gun, the original, he redefined the envelope of the f4. He wasnt an aerodynamicist or anything academically, but he knew that airplane. He knew what it would do. I got in a lot of trouble with Mcdonald Douglas because we flew that airplane way beyond. Foxy probably remembers some of that. We flew that airplane way beyond what it was designed to do. We never killed anybody. We didnt wreck an airplane. So, you get away with it. Pretty soon, the kill ratio goes from 21 in vietnam to you probably want to ask me this, but got to tell it. Fits now. 21, theres a reason after five years of war, top gun got started. At the end from 3 march 1969 till the end of the vietnam war, top gun was going