Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence Image - Dolle

Dolley was both socially adept and politically savvy. Madison is just not a lot of laughs, but she was his best friend and she compensated. It is aaron burr that lets her know that James Madison wishes to meet her. She carved out a space for women where they could wield a great deal of political power. Here, Dolley Madison would sit at the head of the table and direct the conversation. She got these people to the white house and entertained them; got them together; got them talking. This was very important for dolley to make everybody feel welcome, be they enemies or allies. Dolley popularized the style to American Fashion and that was considered her classic look. People noticed it. The octagon was the perfect setting for james and Dolley Madison as they try and resume government as quickly as possible. She sat side by side with madison for almost 20 years during his retirement, helping him compile and arrange his papers. She moved back to washington, d. C. In her elder years and sort of became a grand damme very much behind the scenes in the political field again. As henry clay famously said, everybody loved mrs. Madison. And then, of course, her equally famous response, thats because mrs. Madison loves everybody. Susan Dolley Madison came to her service as first lady with experience in the role. During Thomas Jeffersons two terms, the widower president often called upon Dolley Madison to assist him and his daughter martha with white house entertainment. This sense of the usefulness of parlor diplomacy allowed dolley to hit the ground running when she officially assumed the role in 1809 as her husband James Madison became our nations fourth president. Good evening and welcome to cspans first ladies influence image. Tonight, we will learn about the intriguing Dolley Madison. For the next 90 minutes, we have two guests at our table who know much about her and about the role of first ladies. Let me introduce you to them. Catherine allgor is an author, a biographer of Dolley Madison and a historian. One of her books is called a Perfect Union Dolley Madison and the creation of the american nation. Thanks for being here. Catherine its a pleasure. Susan edith mayo is one of our four historian consultants for this series and she was the creator of the first ladies exhibit at the smithsonian that so many millions of smithsonian visitors have seen throughout the years. Edi mayo, thanks for being here tonight. Nice to see you. Edith thank you. Its a pleasure. Susan well, im going to start with you, catherine. Any 21st century woman who starts to read about Dolley Madison can see some parallels to their own lives in the way she seemed to approach her role in washington. Was she, in fact, ahead of her time, a sort of modern person in the early 1800s or not . Catherine well, thats the paradox. Really, you understand her as an 18th century woman, raised in a certain culture, but when she becomes first lady, she starts adapting the past in a way that paves the way for modernity. And she also creates the first lady role that we have come to know. So every modern first lady, i think everybody all the way up, looks to her. So, in some ways, shes definitely a product of her time, but she opens the door for a lot of women. Susan well, edi mayo, staying with those thoughts, because were trying to show the parallels among them, how they hand off things about the roles to the others. What are some of the things that Dolley Madison contributed to the role . Edith well, i think in our first segment about Martha Washington you saw martha as a person who perfected the aspect of the role which was the social partner to the president and a hostess for the nation. Then, when you get to abigail, she becomes a political partner with her husband and pioneers that role. Dolley is the one who brings the two of them together, so that she becomes both the social partner and the political partner for her husband and i think that sets all kinds of precedents for the future first ladies. And shes kind of still i think held up as a standard by which other people measure themselves today. Susan well spend the first 45 minutes or so, almost half of our program, on those important white house years. It was such an interesting and tempestuous time for this country and we want to make sure you understand the history of it. Later on, well go back in time and well learn about her biography, how this young quaker woman became this internationallyknown first lady and then end up with her legacy. Thats what tonight looks like, and we welcome your participation. Throughout the program, we will have our phone lines open and be taking your calls. You can also send us a tweet and use the hashtag first ladies and weve got the cspan page on facebook, so lots of ways to add your questions or your comments to our discussion tonight. Now, i know there are people, because i started getting emails this week, wanting to know all about Martha Jefferson and theyre wondering, what happened . Weve skipped the third. The third presidency. So we talked about Dolley Madisons role, but what happened to Martha Jefferson . Why was she not in the white house . Edith she was not in the white house because she died very early on. She and jefferson were married for 10 years and then she died in childbirth. And so, he was a widower when he moved into the white house and needed someone to oversee these parties when both sexes were present. It was thought to be unseemly to entertain in mixed company if you did not have a hostess present, so he would very often ask Dolley Madison. Susan but he did not entertain very much. Edith well, he entertained in a very private way. He didnt have large entertainments like adams or washington or the madisons. Susan which the capitol was getting used to. Edith exactly. Susan so was there criticism of him for not being so social . I think that there was criticism not necessarily for him being so social, but not so social, excuse me. But he didnt invite the women as often as he did the men. He preferred to have a lot of male company and conduct actual political conversations. And he also did away with all kinds of rank and protocol which was very criticized at that time, but he wanted everyone to be treated as equal. He thought that was what the new nation was all about. Susan how important was the relationship between the between Thomas Jefferson and the madisons . Catherine well, they were its very important, i mean. James madison and Thomas Jefferson were as very close political allies and friends. And so, its natural, of course, when jefferson gets elected to bring madison on as his secretary of state. I do think i do want to Say Something about jeffersons social program, if you will. Its not an accident. He was not interested in power sharing. He was interested in securing his own political power, so he had dinner parties with men of one party or the other. So he would sit with his group, the republicans as they were called, and he would just, you know, keep au courant and rally the supporters. Then, he would have a dinner party with the opposition, the federalists. And that was just all about keeping an eye on the enemy. And this idea too that edi brought up about the lack of women, which is why, you know, her role in the Jefferson Administration isnt a big story of that time, he had been to france and he had seen women and women at social events and he was absolutely horrified and shocked, especially about their political power because it fell outside the official power. So he cut off all these events. The white house was open only for 4th of july and new years day, and that was partly because he wanted to curtail the power of women. But there was Something Else going on over on the house on f street, and that was Dolley Madison setting up the connections and networks that she would bring to the white house. So during those first years during the Jefferson Administration, the center of social and political life was not the white house or the president s mansion as it was called, it was the house on f street. Susan here are a few bullet points about the country in 1810 as James Madison takes office. The population at that point was 7. 2 million and now 17 states, 36 growth since the census 10 years earlier. And youll remember, last week, it was a 10 year, a 35 growth. Edith booming. Susan bursting at the seams, so thats even though the seams were smaller in those days. Of those, 16 were slaves, 1. 2 million people. And the largest cities continue to be new york city, philadelphia and baltimore and boston. What should we know about the politics, the most important political events of the Madison Administration . What was the time like and how important was dolley in helping to navigate those times for her husband . Catherine right. There were two big stories that i guess i want to say about this era and the first one is disunion. I think youre getting the sense here that the early republic, this is what we call this time period was a time of great anxiety. Nobody was sure that this union was going to hold. In fact, people at the time would refer to United States in the plural. They would say, the United States of america are, which signaled that its not quite holding together. And so, theres a theres a real fear that its going to fall apart. And one of the sources of this disunion might be what they called regionalism, later theyre going to call it sectionalism as they head toward the civil war. So James Madisons primary political goal is unity. And if we keep that in mind as we go on tonight, Dolley Madisons work is going to become understandable. And the second thing i would also sort of like to say that is something that we know the end of the story. So we know that this nation is going to be a strong nation state with a democracy and a twoparty system and a strong president. And that was none of those things that the founders had intended. So now, we look back and we see what that period as a period of growing pains and we see that Dolley Madison, well, obviously not knowing how this is going to end, was the perfect person to help the nation ease into what its going to be. Susan here she was with the father of the constitution serving then as the chief executive of the nation. So he brought a real concept of how he wanted this role to be carried out. How did he approach it and how did she help him . Catherine well, you said concept and i think thats perfect because he was the idea guy and he was very theoretical and he and other members of the founding generation understood as a concept unity that it was their number one job. But how do you do it . How do you bring forth unity . And what Dolley Madison did, along with other women of the time, is take these abstract concepts and translate them into action. So shes enacting unity on this national stage. Susan how . Catherine well, the first thing i think that somebody alluded to in the beginning, she brought people together. So she launches her drawing rooms. Every wednesday night, every wednesday night, it doesnt matter if your Vice President has died; there will be a drawing room. And she put people in the room together. And that sounds nice. But this is about more than just nice. For the early republic, its a time of survival. So this feeling of disunity or disunion is exacerbated in washington because all of these regionalisms come together with the most, im going to say, the most Fractious Congress that weve ever had. These are people who didnt just disagree with each other, but they dueled and fought each other not just in the streets but on the floors of congress. And so, thats why bringing people together and having them see each other as humans is not just, you know, lovely, but actually, crucial. Susan this drawing room concept is exactly the kind of thing that Martha Washington and Abigail Adams had used. Edith yes. But its very different from what they had done. Theirs was extremely formal and dolleys was much more open. And so, you had everybody at dolleys drawing rooms able to have access to the chief executive and his lady, and thats very important for forging a unity in the United States. Also, dolley creates, she starts out as the wife of the secretary of state. But what she is doing is forging networks, social networks, on which politics and diplomacy can be conducted in a civilized manner through the ceremonial forms of dinners, receptions, parties and so forth. So that some of these tensions and animosities that play themselves out in the hall of congress have a way of being resolved at parties in an amicable way. So she is really forging new networks that will work for both politics and society. Susan and this concept you write about in several of your books and the subtitle of this is, and the creation of the american nation. And you write about the fact that the women of this class, this they understood as their power to be able to use social skills to build the nation. Catherine well, the founders understood that this American Revolution that they had was more than just a political revolution. They were going to and this is a phrase they love build the worldanew. And that meant everything was under consideration. This was going to be the new world and they were going to scorn everything of the old world absolute kings and monarchy and courts. And so, they turned to the women and this is actually a political theory called the scottish enlightenment, in case somebody wants to wikipedia that, which says that, in a culture, laws can come and go, but what they call manners stay. And manners are not just teacups, but the way people treat each other and how they regard each other and how they behave. And this is very appealing to these new americans for one thing, they are inventing a whole bunch of laws and not sure people are going to buy, and they really need people to behave. So the phrase they use is republican virtue. Thats republican with a small r. And that meant that people would put their interest of their country before, you know, themselves. Well, how do you get people to do that . And they look to the women of this class to start enforcing what they call the national manners. So this is a very important part. And these women, these elite white women of the cities were very conscious of that. Susan if youd like to participate by phone, here are the phone lines. Weve divided them regionally. So if you live in the eastern or central time zones, our number here is 2025853880. Please dial carefully so you dont get someone else altogether. Mountain and pacific, 2025853881. And well take calls in another 10 minutes or so, so you can get in queue right now. This is a facebook question and either of you could take it, but ill turn to you as a longtime curator of first ladies. Suki wheeler on facebook says, the early first ladies were excellent correspondents writing hundreds of notes and letters in their lifetimes. In what condition are these early letters . Abigail adams, we saw last week thousands of letters over the course of her lifetime. What about Dolley Madison . What did she preserve and did she have a sense of her legacy . Edith i think she probably did have a sense of her legacy, and she is writing to, i believe, her sister as the british are coming to burn the white house. And she is telling her sister what shes doing and what shes saving so that, you know, there will be something to put in the history book. She wants it known that she is saving the state documents, the important pieces of silver, the portrait of George Washington for which she is so famous. But she is writing literally as everything is being packed to be carted off to virginia to safety. So she is very aware of what she is doing, and she writes a number of letters to her family members. Catherine susan, i want to weigh in, because this questioner knows that, as historians, this is the heart of what we do. These are the primary sources. And for a long while, to find dolleys actual letters and what she wrote, it was really hard to do. But in the 1990s and early 2000s, Holly Shulman and David Mattern at the papers of James Madison at the university of virginia began collecting her papers and they published them in a lovely book called, the selected letters of Dolley Madison. But Holly Shulman is now the web master of the Dolley Madison digital edition, which anybody can find in their library, and it has every letter to and from dolley. So these are the papers that are really crucial. And we also have this great account from her niece, mary cutts, and she writes about her aunt. And a lot of those stories which which must have come from dolley herself, right . So that tells us that, late in her life, shes getting a sense of her legacy. So she, of course, cannot obtrude upon the Public Notice as a man would, but we think that she kind of coopted her niece and gave her these memoirs , which weve now just published for the first time so people can read those. Susan we have our first bit of video to show you. Well, throughout the night, wed be visiting places that were importan