Teachers. I think he taught languages and music, and i dont know what my grandmother taught. But they moved from virginia to philadelphia, and that started the family split the family. Because my grandparents couldnt get a job. They said they didnt hire black teachers in philly. They had black children going to integrated schools but no black teachers. So, my grandmother took in washing, and my grandfather refused to do that type work. And the family actually split. They were together physically but not together. The older kids went to college in the family, and they were teachers, the two oldest ones. The youngest kid was sent to school by the middle children, who did not go to college. They had to work to help pay. So, that again, here we go about the color line thing, yeah. I was born in d. C. My mother was born in virginia. My dad was born in maryland. And when i was three oh, my parents divorced when i was a baby, and my dad took the boy, and my mother took the girl and remarried, moved to San Francisco. So, from the age of three on, i grew up in San Francisco. Then, she remarried again and moved to san diego, and i ended up at Virginia Union, yeah, which one of my greatgreatgrandparents was on the board at virginia seminary. And it was great to know that my greatgreatgrandparent had helped to start the school. Right. Gloria yeah. Right. So, if we could talk a little bit more about your childhood, growing up on the west coast before you went to experience virginia, and what were the sort of racial dynamics of life in both southern and also Northern California . Gloria okay. Growing up in San Francisco, i lived in what is now called the west end. It was called fillmore back in those days. Its where you know, and i try to think, was it full of black people . I think, as a child, you probably dont even know. And i guess thats where the black people lived. Then, we moved to the presidio, and i went to st. Dominics on pine and steiner. If you know where that is. It was all white. I was the only black child. And every day, i used to pray, i hope the nun doesnt slap me this morning. She would walk down, as we were praying outside in the morning, and slap me. And i would pray to god, god, ive done something wrong. Please help me. You know, i didnt know what i had done wrong. Right. Gloria never did. And i used to get fs. All my papers were fs. And i was in the second grade or third grade. And my mother said, you need to bring your papers home, and i started crying. She said, whats wrong . I said, mama, im dumb. I get all fs. She said, thats okay. Bring them home anyway. She collected that many papers, about an inch, and marched me up to the school. And she says, why are these marked wrong . Theres nothing wrong on most of i didnt know i was bright. David mmhmm. Gloria and the nun started crying. And mama said, go outside and play. And i said, mama, im not allowed to play. I have to go to church during recess and lunch. David while the other kids were out playing . Gloria yeah. And my mother says, i think you better go outside. I dont know what she said to the nun, but after that, the smartest girl and i in class were vying for grades. And the nun stopped slapping me. I didnt tell my mother she slapped me. David [inaudible] gloria yeah. David yeah. Gloria so, that was my experience there. I went to a Public School first called presidio. And a little boy said, a little white boy, a little boy said that he couldnt hold my hand because his mother said he couldnt hold the hand of niggers. So, i went home and asked my mother was i a nigger, because i didnt know. You know . I knew it was something bad david right. Gloria because he said he couldnt hold my hand. David and that was probably the first time you had heard that term. Gloria yeah. Yeah. That was my experience there. I had heard of other experiences. I remember we owned a mom and pops grocery store, which is typical in San Francisco. You know, they have safeway, but generally you have little stores. And a man came in. And my parents never talked in front of me, but i heard them whispering that hes a teacher, but he can only substitute because he has a dishonorable discharge, because during world war ii he jumped off a ship, refusing to fight, because he said why should he fight for america, freeing other countries, when hes not free here. I remember them saying that. David hmm. Gloria yeah. And then, i remember my mother trying to get a job. And they told her, you join the union first and you can get the job. And the union says, get the job first, and, you know, viceversa. This went on, and i remember my mother crying, but not in front of us. But i do remember. So, little things, subtle things, you know. David right. Gloria you know, santa monica had a big rope across their beach. David yeah. Gloria yeah. Unofficially. David right. Gloria but its there. David right. Gloria yeah. Teaching jobs. David mmhmm. Gloria only teach in the black area. You know, i mean, it was there. Its still there. David umhmm. So, when had your parents at all prepared you for what it would be like, [laughs] as you got ready to go across the country . Gloria heck, no. Nobody could prepare you. [laughter] do you know the first thing i did when i got in town . I sat down at the soda fountain. I said, gee, i want a banana split. Ill never forget this. One strawberry, one vanilla, and if you dont have black walnut, please put another strawberry, no chocolate, and strawberry syrup on top, and whipped cream, and thats id always get that. The lady went away to make it. And she came back and she says, oh, we cant serve you. And i said, oh, are you out . [laughs] she says, no. And i said, oh. I remember saying, oh. Oh. I said, oh. Three times. It shocked me. You know, i couldnt get a banana split because im black, sitting at the counter. David right. Gloria i wasnt thinking. I knew you couldnt, but i wasnt thinking. I just sat down. David umhmm. Gloria yeah. David had you had experiences like that in california . Gloria they are overt, not covert. David umhmm. Gloria you can feel them. David hmm. Gloria you know. David but there it was just gloria well, i have been asked when i went to high school, my cousin was filipino. And she says, claudette, i want you my middle name is claudette. David umhmm. Gloria claudette, i want you to come with me to the filipino picnic. I said, no. Im not filipino. I said, you are. She says, come with me. So, i went and i took my date. And when we got to the place outside of San Francisco, the guy said on the gate, i have to let you in. Are you sure you want to come . So, ive had that type thing. David umhmm. Gloria or places in you people can come in. Do you think youre going to be happy . David hmm. Interesting. Gloria yeah. David yeah, kind of coded or presented in a different way. Gloria right, right. David may i ask why you decided to go to a traditionally black college . Gloria yeah. My mother thought it would be good for me. Yeah. But, you know, i think a black i think i should have gone to howard. I mean, dont get me wrong. Virginia union was great, but i should have been in a city. [laughter] you know . David yeah, yeah. Gloria because it was too much learning at one time. David mmhmm. Gloria being in the south and the mentality and david so, what was that like . I know you talked about the ice cream parlor. But what was the indoctrination to life there . Gloria well, i didnt like anybody, the black people and the white people. First of all, i was young, and i thought i knew everything, and i didnt. I didnt know anything. David and this is what year that you got there . Gloria in the fifties, 1959, around then. David okay, yeah. Gloria but, you know, as a young person, youre very ignorant, but you dont know it. [laughs] and i thought i knew everything. And when i went there, i couldnt understand why the white people treated the blacks the way they were treated, and why the blacks allowed it. I even got angry with some of the black people for not sitting in, the kids. And i didnt understand. I do now. If they had sat in, they wouldnt have had dinner on the table that night because their parents would have been fired. I had no idea, you know. David mmhmm. So, what was Virginia Union like, in terms of a sort of a consciousness, a black consciousness, among the students . Or, even, were there teachers that were talking about these issues . Gloria yeah. You know, i believe people it was a way of life, and they knew how to live within the system. Im not saying it was comfortable for them, but i think they had a black society, which was a way of living, you know. David mmhmm. Gloria i remember dr. Johnson, who was my favorite instructor there, bob johnson. He had two phds, i think. I think he got his first when he was eighteen, im not sure, very bright man. He used to play in a quartet. I dont know what he played, violin, or something. He said, one night he was driving home he used to tell jokes in class and he had this white woman in the car. Then, he thought, oh, my god. Im going to be killed. You know, he was always saying things like that. David mmhmm. Gloria but i dont know. I dont remember. Im so daggone old, i dont remember. [laughter] david so, im going to be asking you questions about the sitins that you got involved in, obviously, but i was sort of curious about what prefigured those, what kind of conversations you may have been having amongst yourselves as students. Gloria yeah. We were having meetings. And, as you know, charles and whats his name . Tony pinkett, i think, were the leaders. And we were always having meetings about that. David thats charles sherrod, is it . Gloria yeah, mmhmm. David and can you remember what some of those meetings were like . Gloria no, i cant. Im telling you, being old is a sonofagun. [laughter] david right. But gloria i thought the world was going to change, though. I was so naive. Gosh. I remember the Police Person was very nice to me. I remember when we were arrested, he held my hand and helped me up into the paddy wagon. And i thought that was so nice. And my aunt called me. She says, i see you on the news. Youre being helped into the paddy wagon. David you mentioned that there were some students who didnt participate that you were angry at. Gloria i was angry with them because i felt they lived in virginia. They should. But then, after meeting i met one girl at the reunion. I met a lady at the fiftiethyear reunion. Well, she was in the sitins, so evidently i knew her, but i didnt. They needed pictures. I didnt remember anyone. They needed pictures of when they were young. David right. Gloria because i havent seen these people in fifty years. And we were sitting at the table, and tears were coming down her eyes. I felt like crying, too, but i dont cry in front of people. And she said that her father was fired, they had to move out of state, she had to drop out of school. I dont know if she ever finished college. And i thought, you know, thats how naive i was. She was one of the virginia people. A few people from virginia were in the sitins. Well, quite a few, im sure. But i wanted all of them to be in there. But i didnt live in virginia. [laughs] my parents were in california, you know. David mmhmm. You talked about thinking you were going to change the world. What did you want to change . Gloria well, i thought, i know that were not all going to be, you know, hunkydory. But i thought, well, its going to be integration. You know, its not going to the first thing i did, i remember, when we got arrested, we went to a courthouse i mean, im sorry, went to jail. And they put us in this cell, all of us, and it was smelly. And i thought, doggone it, not even a clean cell can you go in. And then, in the court, the court was segregated. I felt like, am i in hell . What has happened . I mean, even the courts are segregated . And then, i remember a black man came in, and he was a drunkard, and you could smell him. And i thought, why do the dredges have to come in . You know, im thinking, its going downhill fast. And i thought, am i losing my mind . You know, horrible. David yeah, yeah. Gloria but i just thought, okay, now that weve sat in, we have these attorneys. And theyre going to go to court, and everything is going to be right, and its not going to be any longer. But you can change laws, but you cant change people. That comes about through your doing individually. David mmhmm. And thats what kind of process is that do you think . Gloria what do you think . [laughter] you know, i think well, the young kids today, many of them didnt grow up during that era, thank god. And many of them, if you get angry with anyone, its angry not because of a persons color, its for some other reason. And i think thats great. Many of the kids are that way today. David mmhmm. Gloria yeah. I mean, you still have youre going to always have an upper dog and a lower dog, you know. John how long were you in college before the sit in started . Gloria i dont remember. Youre asking me difficult questions. [laughs] david [laughs] john this is just the preexam. Gloria im sorry. Really, i dont remember. Yeah. In fact, i was surprised that it was so important. David hmm. Gloria yeah. David well, this would have been so, the sitin at Virginia Union was or with Virginia Union students was about, i believe, about three weeks after the one in greensboro, north carolina, on february first. Gloria okay. David and so, it would have been one of the early ones, but part of the wave of sitins. Do you know if you were aware of where, you know gloria other sitins . Yeah. David other sitins . Gloria yeah, yeah. David or why did this come up as a strategy for you all . Gloria yeah. I dont honest to pete, i really dont remember. David but you were aware of there being others . Gloria oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. David what about the notion of nonviolence and how you were going to comport yourselves in what could potentially be dangerous situations . Gloria yeah, i was going to be a nonviolent person. Im not a violent person anyway, just my mouth, unfortunately. [laughs] i thought, its not fair to have people hit you, and you cant really protect yourself. Its really not fair. I think had i been a man, i probably would have been angry and retaliated. I dont know that, but maybe. David mmhmm. Gloria yeah. David and was there were there . Gloria no, no. No, no. David did you run into trouble at the sitins . Gloria the dogs and things, but it was fine. When i say it was fine, our sitins were calm compared to some other sitins in other cities and states. John well, what actually happened . Gloria oh, we went downtown several days, and we went to Thalhimers Department store and we sat down well, i didnt sit down. I was standing, but being so tall, they pointed me out, really and truly, you know, because i stand out, and i had on high heel shoes, too, so that made me over six feet tall. And they just wouldnt serve us. I mean, it was relatively calm, compared to what ive seen on the news and talked with other people. David mmhmm. How many students were involved . Gloria thirtyfour. David and you went were you arrested right away, or did it take a little longer . Gloria we walked. The first time we werent. The second time we were. We walked from school to downtown. It was kind of a i hate to say this, but a jovial mood, you know, a lot of kids walking together, and i guess were all going to change the world, you know. David mmhmm. Gloria i dont know how they felt, but thats the attitude that i had and the feeling that i had. David right, right. Were there songs being sung or anything like that . Gloria yeah, yeah. And dont ask me the names of them, okay . [laughs] david yeah. Gloria not only that, i had to learn black culture. Not that i you know, i had to learn the black songs. Growing up a catholic which im no longer growing up a catholic, you dont know those songs. I had never heard the black National Anthem before in my life. A lot of things i had to learn. I remember i went to Adam Clayton Powell was a big man, and he and my uncle worked together, too. And he came to town to talk. And i went to one of his meetings, civil rights meetings. And in the church, the people clapped. [claps twice] and they banged their feet like this, and it scared me, because i had well, i dont want this on the thing. John [inaudible] gloria okay. I had never been in a whole group of black people. And can you imagine, im black and im scared . I mean, that doesnt make good sense. You know . David but you had never experienced this before. Gloria no, no. David yeah. So, you said earlier that when you first got to virginia, and there was this sort of not liking the black people, not liking the white people. Gloria yeah. David did this change for you as you were there longer . Gloria yeah, i i got a better understanding of what was happening. You know . But the black people had to live there. And the white people were only going along with the status quo. And i yeah, i knew i was getting the hell out of there. David as soon as you could, or . Gloria yeah, as soon as i could. [laughs] david [laughs] gloria yeah. David and why was that . Gloria because i didnt like virginia. And i shouldnt say that on camera, because virginia has many fine qualities. I have to put that point in there. I was too immature to really appreciate what was happening. David mmhmm. Gloria i was too immature. Yeah. David did you ever experience other parts of the south, or the deep south . Gloria no. No, that was enough. David that was enough . Gloria yeah. David yeah. [laughter] were jumping around a little bit, but i want to follow this. When you finished at virginia you graduated . Gloria mmhmm. David and then, where did you go from there . You said you wanted gloria you mean schoolwise or citywise . David im just following up on you saying you wanted to get the hell out. I was curious if you went gloria i went to d. C. My dad lived in d. C. David yeah. Gloria and i had a little boyfriend well, a young man, boyfriend. And my mother kept saying, come back to california. And i said, mama, when i go back, im not going back to san diego. I dont like san diego. Its too country. San diego is flat. I said, im going home to San Francisco. She says, claudette, please come back. She says, ill tell you what. Ill pay your way back, and if you dont like it, you can go back to d. C. Or San Francisco. Well, i came back and started partying. Im a kid. Im partying. And then, i got a job. So, i was stuck there for two years, another city i didnt like. Then, i moved to l. A. , because im partying in l. A. I have friends there. This is during the summertime. I love dancing. And i thought, ill dance all summer, go to all these parties, and then, ill go up to San Francisco and get a job. Well, i never did, because i waited too late. [laughter] so, i g